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SGOTM4 - Team Bede

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Got it.

    Galleys are good.

    Archers and catapaults and NuMercs for Rome I think.

    On settlement: we really need to get down the valley. If Rome gets a toehold breaking out of the core will be a mess unless we use lots of boats.

    In a situation like this a Despotic GA is not a 'bad thing'. The value of the GLib as a reserach producer is pretty low with only one neighbor so the extra cash will fuel research across the more expensive of the AA techs, and the extra shields are a big help until we can get the terrain developed.

    Twenty turns of growth and terrain development will recover the diffference lost when the GA ends.
     
  2. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    When I said we are being drawn into a despotic golden age, I meant that we are being forced to defend the legions with our NuMercs.

    We will not have a better defensive unit until gunpowder (if we even get a saltpeter resource [pissed]) and our lack of iron means it is difficult to use an 'offence is the best form of defence' strategy. We cannot use swordsmen to ward off an attack on our cities, so our most favourable matchup against 3/3/1 legions is the NuMerc 2/3/1. Unless we suffer a crushing defeat, we will be into a golden age before we want to be.

    Our only hope of avoiding this will be to fortify several cheap warriors in the mountain range, fighting a war of attrition.

    Horsemen won't be very useful unless we build a road through the mountain range.

    Of course, we could also become pacifists to avoid the Roman legions. :cringe:

    I never usually build catapults. I believe artillery fire is only useful when deployed in large numbers, so I would normally wait for cannons when I can support 20+ of them.

    However in this case, with no iron and facing legions, maybe a group of 5-8 catapults could swing the balance in favour of our archers.

    You may be right here. We will be at war with Rome sooner or later as this continent isn't big enough for both of us. If we wait for a Republic government (30 turns?) we may waste our golden age fighting legions and size 7+ Roman cities.

    If we are resigned to a despotic golden age we could use it to boost Utica towards the GLib, and also to research MM quicker. This would allow us to contact the other civs earlier, which may outweigh the value of a Republic golden age. :)
     
  3. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    Since both Carthage & Zak#1 are almost size 3, I suggest we settle both the spice city & the city down the valley soon, but I do not think Zak#1 can build a settler in Bede's turn (unless we switch the NuMerc being built).

    @Zakharov: A road down the valley is already being built. :)

    It is probably evident, but I will say it just in case:
    • Once Utica expands (maybe even before), let Carthage labor the irrigate cow. If Utica use both cows, it grows every 8t and Carthage grows every 10t. If Utica use the mined cow and Carthage the irrigated cow, Utica will grow every 14t and Carthage every 5t. Carthage would build workers to join Utica faster than Utica can grow alone.
    • When barbs appear, use NuMerc (veteran if possible) to fight them. It would really help getting leaders if we had some elite NuMerc when Rome decides to attack us.
    • I would like some cover for the worker building the valley road in case barbs appear. Maybe the warrior S on his way home.

    That's pretty much all I can think of that will affect Bede's turn. My other ideas depend on how the game develops itself.

    N.B. : Looking at the scores, I see we are trailing the other teams a bit. :( I think it is because we have less territory since territory is most of our score. Hopefully, it will be compensated by the fact the 20K city will grow faster. Any comments on that? It is probably too early to think about that...
     
  4. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    I would guess they did one of two things different to us:
    1) Settled on the spot, built no settlers for a while and concentrated on getting an early wonder in a large capital city.
    2) Moved to our Utica site and settled there first, then rapidly expanded from there to get 5 cities as quickly as possible.

    I can't believe they have any leaders this early in the game to rush any wonders.

    We will have the Colossus soon, which should push up our score.

    Anyway, are we going for highest score or fastest variant win? It will be very unlikely we will get both. We need not worry about how our score compares if we end up with a quick 20K win.

    BTW I am fully agreed with your three points fbouthil. :thumbsup:
     
  5. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    Anyone who settled just N of the our Carthage (NE of start) got an excellent capitol location with 2 cows and a Spice in the 21 square area. They would also have 4 bg and 3 forests. Lots of river for extra commerce. The only disadvantage is that it is not coastal. Any team with this start will be ahead of our score for quite some time. If they went for CB instead of writing at the start then they would also have an edge due to an earlier temple for happiness.

    I also fully agree with fbouthil's 3 points. Utica doesn't need the irrigated cow until it is size 12 (even then they could use a coast tile). I think Carthage should continue to pump out workers until either we need the 5th city site or until we've pumped the other 3 sites up to size 12 and have enough workers that we could pump the new 5th city up to size 12 as well (or whatever works with a 9 tile initial range).
     
  6. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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  7. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    First step is to turn down the research rate as having Literature in 12 is not to our advantage right now. We are ~35 turns from the 400 shields needed for the Library and need a temple in Utica before we start the pre-build anyway. Then swap fields between LMOK1 and Carthage. It slows the archer but speeds the NuMerc. Then move some garrison troops south into the valley to blockade the Romans.

    1725BC
    Meet a Roman warrior in the Vale of Lambs and buy the wheel from him 125g and 3gpt in the efffort to maintain friendly relations and reduce the potential for demands.

    No horses on the island.

    Despite having most of our treasury plus a lot of our income Caesar calls back and extorts another 17g. I'm tempted to refuse the demand but wisdom prevails.

    1675BC
    Build the Colussus in Utica and start a temple.

    1650BC
    Fiddling with citizens and dancing with roamin' Romans in the vale.

    1625BC
    More o' the same.

    1600BC
    Just to be different more o' the same.

    The Romans start the Pyramids.

    1575BC
    Roamin' Roman settler team discouraged and turns back to Antium.

    1550BC
    Roman settler pair heads back to west coast.Troops in the gap advance to cut them off.

    1525BC
    Settler will head down the vale next turn.

    Romans drop their settler on the bonus grasslands.

    Utica builds its temple and starts a Palace as a GLib pre-build. Palace due in 24. The Palace is only worth 312 of the 400 needed, though (24 turns @13spt). I am relunctant to use the Pyramids as we don't know who else are building it.

    1500BC
    Settler starts trek to the vale. can pick up NuMerc escort at LMOK1 on the way. Workers are on the way to road the forest at Utica and Carthage is building another one due in 5 with growth in 4. Lux is at ten and all are content. Science is at 30 with literature due in 19. The garrison warrior at Carthage is peering to the north from the mountain as he is not needed for MP duty at the moment. The Romans have HBR so I would expect barb horsemen from the North any time now.

    The Southern Front


    I am not overly concerned about score right now as we appear to be in the middle of the pack with a nicely rising curve, not a bad postion to be in. I am also satisfied with out progress. The Colussus is a handy early culture builder and the extra income at Utica is a big help right now.




    Roster check

    Zakharov up
    fbouthil - on deck
    TimBentley
    MOTH (skip from Sept 24 through Sept 26)
    Bede

    And a gentle reminder: 24hrs to post got it, 24 hrs to post log and save.

    The Save
     
  8. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    Ok, I got it.

    I will have a look at the save now but I won't play until tomorrow.

    Am I building the next city on the grassland site I suggested in post 69?

    No horses? I guess that means that longbows will be useful if we cannot get to the iron before invention.
     
  9. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    That site is a bit close to Pompeii, and would lose two grassland squares. Pompeii would have about a 0.17% chance of flipping (assuming we have 1.5 the culture of Rome) after the city expanded. Our city, on the other hand, would have about a 0.01% chance of flipping. Moving NW would add a bunch of water, which we don't really need. Moving NE would inhibit growth.
     
  10. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    I would push on down the valley and culturally challenge the Romans. With a big enough garrison and 100% natives the chances of flipping are nil. And we'll need a jumping off place for the Roman ExFor anyway.

    We will be exposed to more Roman demands for tribute but those are inevitable in any case as they will be expanding in our direction (no place else to go).
     
  11. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    Looking at the save, I have the following thoughts:
    • Maybe we should switch production in Carthage to settler since it grows faster than Zak#1. On the other hand, if the settler is built in Zak#1, it would be built faster. I am not sure what is best, but I think I prefer having the next city faster, even if it means Zak#1 will become less productive for some time.
    • There are 2 more worked tiles than Utica can labor due to its size. We could either join a worker to Utica or use the workers to build a road to the spice city site so it can be settled faster like we did for the city down the valley. On the other hand, if we join every worker Carthage builds, then Carthage can grow pretty fast.

    If we join a worker right now & every worker Carthage builds, Utica would grow as follows:

    in 1t -> size 8 (join a worker right now) :)
    in 6t -> size 9 (join the worker Carthage just built) :cool:
    in 11t -> size 10 (another worker from Carthage) :D
    in 13t -> size 11 (natural growth) :smug:
    in 16t -> size 12 (another worker from Carthage) :nya:

    Of course, it will mean increasing lux a lot. Maybe we will even have to build a spice colony to help decrease the lux tax. We do need to research lit before the palace prebuild is finished and if the lux tax is too high, we may become short of cash before lit is researched or have to slow down Utica growth. :(

    I agree with Bede for the settling of the city down the valley and culture.
     
  12. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    I don't think cash is a problem as adding population to Utica is worth 2g per head with the Colussus, so increasing luxury spending as needed should not cause a reduction in the science allotment. Keeping the population at Carthage down will help there as will the income from the new city to the south.

    On the other hand I am not so sure using Zak1 to produce a settler is the best choice. That is the only town capable of producing troops in a reasonable time and stunting the growth there will slow the troop training effort. And defenders are going to be needed sooner rather than later methinks.
     
  13. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    I don't think the spice colony will be necessary. Lux will need to be at 30% when Utica is size 12 and one additional luxury won't help (2 luxuries and 20% lux would be sufficient, if my calculations are correct). At the present moment, 30% lux and 30% science (the current science rate, which certainly won't need to be significantly raised, at least) would generate net 0gpt. That includes a gpt deal to Rome that will run out during Zakharov's turns. On the other hand, a luxury would help keep the luxury slider lower at size 8 or 11.

    Indeed war in short time would not be surprising, especially considering the proposed location of our new city.
     
  14. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    1500(0)
    End turn.

    IBT - Barb warrior appears N of Utica's cow.

    1475(1)
    LMOZ1 builds NuMerc > NuMerc in 5 (to send N)
    NuMerc/Settler head from LMOZ1 towards valley.
    Worker joins Utica. Now Palace is in 21, Lit in 16.
    Warrior moves from mountain towards Utica for MP, it will free an archer for hunting.
    Luxuries to 20% to keep the extra citizen happy.

    1450(2)
    Archer moves from Utica to attack barb warrior. Wins but loses 1 hp.
    Worker + slave will road/mine hills then move to road forest NE of Utica.

    1425(3)
    Worker in the mountain roads sheep in 2. Sorry guys, this was a miscalculation. In hindsight, I should have sent him straight to mine BG next to the new city site.
    Carthage grows in 1, worker in 2. So I free up a 2 shield tile in Utica to allow the worker in Carthage to be built as it grows, one turn early.

    1400(4)
    Worker built in Carthage > worker in 5.
    Theveste settled in valley grassland site. Set to build temple in 60, as it needs the culture.
    LMOZ1 grows to size 4. I had already moved one of the warriors on the Roman border towards it. It now arrives for MP duty.
    New worker moves to Utica.
    Theveste requires 3 units as a garrison to prevent a culture flip (thanks to CrpMapStat :thumbsup: ). I move a warrior and a NuMerc in.

    IBT - A Roman warrior moves into the mountain range on the east coast.

    1375(5)
    Worker joined to Utica. Size 9, Palace in 16.
    Archer kills a new barb warrior to the N.

    IBT - A barb horseman appears to the N.

    1350(6)
    LMOZ1 builds NuMerc > warrior in 2 (to help with MP in Utica, freeing an archer).
    NuMerc is sent N to deal with barbs.

    1325(7)
    Not much happens. The barb horse stays where it is.
    The Roman warrior looks to be on an exploration mission, not an attack run.

    1300(8)
    LMOZ1 builds warrior > worker in 2 (to build spice city road). I can afford this worker as NuMercs are built in 5 at both size 3 and size 4.
    NuMerc attacks barb horse and wins (3/4 hp).

    IBT - Another barb horse appears. A new Roman warrior moves next to Theveste worker.

    1275(9)
    Carthage builds a worker > worker in 5.
    Theveste worker completes mine. Road in 2. I check MapStat and Theveste now only needs 2 units to prevent a flip, so I send a NuMerc to defend the worker from the Roman warrior.
    Warrior moves into Utica, allowing the archer to move out.

    IBT - Two barb horses attack our NuMerc and die (fools!). Our NuMerc is promoted to ELITE (4/5 hp). [dance]

    1250(10)
    LMOZ1 builds worker > NuMerc in 5.
    Worker moves N to build the spice road.
    Worker joined to Utica. Size 10, 18 shields/turn (2 of them lost to waste), growth in 4, Palace in 10, 25 commerce/turn (2 lost to corruption).

    Notes:
    The luxury slider is at 20%. Utica (with 2 MP warriors) has 5 happy and 5 sad citizens.
    Science is at 30% with Lit in 7. We can turn this down to 20% to get Lit in 9, or up to 70% to get Lit in 3. We should probably leave it until Utica grows to size 11 before making a decision.

    The elite NuMerc is heading S to the Roman border.
    The veteran NuMerc next to the sheep is going N to hunt barbs.
    The archer W of Carthage is defending the spice road worker.
    The archer to the N is barb hunting.
    The archer S of LMOZ1 is following the Roman warrior. If he moves to the W of LMOZ1, block him off. The Romans have no knowledge of our territory or the land to the N. We want to keep it that way or they will send settlers up there.

    Theveste road on BG is complete next turn.
    Utica road in forest is complete next turn.

    Utica grows in four turns. Without a harbour, it will stop growing at size 11. It could work Carthage's cow, but I say keep it at 11. That way we can grow LMOZ1 to 12 and jump the palace there when the time comes. The other way would be to grow both to 12, then build a worker in Utica just before we disband Carthage, but this will be difficult if Utica is building a wonder.

    Carthage is building a worker. No more can be added to Utica, so should we change this to a settler?

    LMOZ1 is building a NuMerc. Should it get a temple to close the border with Theveste?

    Rome has 515g and Horseback riding. I didn't trade as we don't need HR, but maybe we should offer a gpt deal to prevent a war with Rome.

    Score
    Firaxis: 139 - Jason: 184

    We are behind other teams, but our graph is curving upwards (due to Colossus I guess).

    1250BC SAVE

    Roster
    fbouthil - Up next
    TimBentley - on deck
    MOTH (skipping until 26th)
    Bede
    Zakharov - just played

    Here is a picture of our empire in 1250BC:
     

    Attached Files:

  15. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    @Zakharov: nice work! :goodjob:

    I agree with switching worker to settler in Carthage. I am not sure about switching Zak#1 to temple yet as we lack units to block both scouting warriors. I usually use 3 units to block an enemy unit; does anyone know how a way to do it with only 2 units?

    I would like to send the barb hunting archer S for blocking duties, but it may be risky as the barb camp was not dispersed, I think (but too far to show on mil adv).

    I think anything that can delay the war with Rome is a good idea for now, so I like the trade of HR (Why in hell did Rome research that!) for gpt. It could be done on my preturn as our active deal with Rome ends this turn.

    I can play this afternoon.

    Any suggestions for the next research? Myst for Oracle?
     
  16. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    If we move enough units into LMOZ1, the palace will jump there. The number includes 3 points per native citizen, 1 point per foreign citizen, 1 point per neighboring town (meaning within 8 walking tiles, a 17x17 square), 2 points per neighboring city, 3 points per neighboring metropolis, and 1 point per military unit. In fact, if both LMOZ1 and Carthage were the same size and had the same number of military units stationed, the palace would jump to LMOZ1. I would be more careful than that, just to be safe, however.

    Anyways, to the task at hand. It looks like Rome should research map making next, followed by mysticism. So we could research code of laws on the way to republic, or we could research mysticism before Rome does.

    Upon further investigation, Utica at size 12 would produce one additional shield. This is not significant enough to harm Carthage's growth.

    I think switching Carthage to a settler would be fine, although it looks like 29 shields will be in the box when Carthage grows to size 3 in 9 turns, so it will need to borrow a BG from LMOZ1 for a turn.

    Assuming Utica was to stay at size 11, it should take 15 turns to build the Great Library, so even lowering the science to 10% could work, so I'll support a science of 20%.
     
  17. Zakharov

    Zakharov Academician

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    At the moment, science at 10% would give us Lit in 15 turns. The Palace will be done in 10. We need to research Lit before the Palace is finished as we cannot rely on the Pyramids as a placeholder. If we get a situation where for example, the Palace is done in 3, 20% gives Lit in 1 and 10% gives it in 2, then ok drop the science rate. Just make sure Literature is researched before the Palace is completed.

    On the subject of future research, I say we need the Republic asap. We must therefore get Code of Laws and Philosophy next.

    The only way to do it with 2 units is to use the coast as an extra barrier. For inland blocking, you will need 3 units.

    I couldn't find the barb camp. I suspect it is in the tundra region. :hmm:
     
  18. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

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    How can you know what Rome is researching?!? Let's see if we can wait to research myst for ourselves or not:

    in 15t (according to TimBentley, I trust his calculations), Utica will finish TGLib. Unless we use some pop-rushing, 4t to build a library. The we have about 14t we can use the palace as prebuild for the next wonder. That means we need to have another wonder accessible (i.e. myst) within 33t (a bit less if we pop-rush).

    Let's see if we can research CoL and then Myst ourselves if Rome does not research it for us.

    Tech___Research at 30%____40%_____50%
    Lit________________7_______5________4
    CoL______________27______21_______15
    Myst_____________11_______9________6
    Total_____________45______35_______25

    Philo______________16______13_______9
    Total (+philo -CoL)__34______27_______19

    Since I do not think courthouse are important at this point, I will research philo next so we can stay at 30% and keep the opportunity to research myst afterward if Rome does not help us.

    Playing now as I won't have time tonight.
     
  19. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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    Well, it's a guess based off a spreadsheet found in the thread about what the AI will research next. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but map making is an AI priority regardless (I was surprised to see that Rome researched horseback riding).

    We obviously could get philosophy before Rome, so that would be good for trading purposes. The only city that needs a courthouse is Theveste (reducing corruption from 36% (39% after spice city is founded) to 25%).
     
  20. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Don't forget we need a library in Utica before any other wonders. (3cpt doubled to 6cpt in 1000 yrs) so that will have to be added to whatever calculations are made regarding research. The Oracle itself is only 4cpt and costs 2.5x a library. The other important AA culture wonder is the HG at 4cpt and 300 shields. But neither one is critical and we may want to preserve the shields for a higher cost, higher value MA building like Sistine's or Bach's or even a cathedral (3cpt and only 160 shields).
     

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