SGOTM4 - Team Bede

[Zakharov]

I agree with stoking up a war between Germany and Greece. The obvious ally is Germany as they are giving us 100gpt currently which we don't want to lose.

What about Rome? Should we give them a ROP so that they can get settlers through to our North? I'd rather see backwards rome with little resources have the extra coast on our continent than having some of the more advanced civs landing good units on our shores.

Fully agreed here. It will be much easier to keep Rome's wings clipped than having to deal with one of the world powers. The ROP will be fine as we have roaded every tile, so we will not get any annoying roadblocks.

 

[MOTH]

the red sox game might be over soon and I can play without the big distraction. Right now it is 6-6 in the bottom of the 8th.

 

[MOTH]

0-1250 Re-nogotiate deals with India and trade: Democracy for Horses, 25 GPT, 4 G
Trade with Rome: ROP, Spices for 5 GPT, 1G, ROP
Get Peace with Babylon: Peace for Peace, 2 GPT
Get Peace with Celts: Peace for Peace, 4 GPT, 8G
Trade with Babylon Democracy for 63 GPT, 8 G
Trade with Celts: Theology for 2 GPT, 3G
MM for slightly more beakers in Theveste, L.Minor, and Utica
100% science for ToG in 4.
Knights in 3, 4, 5, 5 - I'm not worrying about maxing production on the two in 5.

IBT - Roman Settler pair heads north. RedSox sweep Angels. My wife gets lost going to a show and I spend a 1/2 hour giving directions.

1-1255 zzz

IBT - Sheakespeare's Theater is built in Utica. Our palace is expanded - 2nd floors on both wings.

2-1260 adjust sliders

IBT - L.Minor - Knight>Knight

3-1265 zzz

IBT - We Learn ToG and Switch Utica to Newton's University in 15. Magnetism in 6. I realized I forgot to trade with Germany before Shakes was done

4-1270 zzz

IBT - Germans renew peace. Roman Settler founds city near our Wool colony. It could also get Iron on expansion, so we will have to wipe it out once the ROP deal runs out. Theveste and Hippo - Knight>Knight

5-1275 Time to take care of the greeks. Open an Embassy in Berlin. Berlin is size 12 and 18SPT. MA vs Greece costs Physics as they have a ROP with Greece.

IBT - Ottomons and Germany sign MA vs Greece. Greek Caravel sinks attacking something. L.Minor Knight>Knight

6-1280 1 attack- Elite Horse vs Reg Musket wins but no leader and we raze the Greek town. No more Greeks on our continent. Siwthc a couple cities to Caravels so we can go hunting Greeks.

7-1285 zzz

IBT - Germany and Babylon sign peace. 2 Carvels and a Knight are built and I switch to wealth.

8-1290 zzz

9-1295 Adjust sliders.

IBT We learn Magnetism and start Metalurgy in 5.

10-1300 zzz

Situation:
Leptis Minor will expand in 4 turns linking our borders and freeing up some coastal watchers. Utica will hit 10000 culture in 21 or 22 turns. The Carvel in the North needs to move south and pick up more troops. There are a couple of elites around there. The caravel in the South is loaded with 3 Knights and heading for Greece. Most of the workers are parked near Utica.

Science is currently at 90% for a GPT loss, but that should be better after we make some trades.

We can now trade over the ocean, so there are lots of trade deals to be made. Germany will give us lots of GPT for tech again.

Firaxis: 638
Jason: 845

The save is here

Rotation:
Bede - up
Zakharov - on deck
fbouthil
TimBentley - skip 10/8-10/12
MOTH - just played

 

[fbouthil]

I just checked the save and our new 20K date is 1818AD!

Lots of deals are possible:
Ottomans is willing to give 2 lux + 21gpt + 30g for democracy.
Germany is willing to give lux + 56gpt for ToG or Magnetism. (I prefer Magnetism so they cannot start a wonder).
Celts give about as much for a lux or a tech, around 5gpt.
India is willing to give 50g + 19gpt for physics.
Persia and Babylon are not willing to give gpt.

We will finish Newton in 9t and we can prebuild a palace for 12t. Metallurgy will be researched in 5t, and navigation in 5 more turns, which leaves us with 11t to research something else. How about researching SP before navigation? I do not know how long it will take to research it, but if it is 10t or less, then we could start railroading and build the other wonders faster.

I am not exactly sure what MOTH expects to do with 3 knights against Greece. Knights vs musketmen are not particularly good. With twice that much knights, I would say we could go against Greek cities. Maybe the idea is to disconnect the horse near Ottoman's borders and then wait inside Ottoman territory to pick the Greeks MDI? Anyway, at the speed we are building wonders, we may not even need GL to build every MA wonders (it would still be faster with GL).

 

[Zakharov]

I've taken a look at the save.

Hopefully that German town will flip to us, so we can take it and abandon it. If not then we should raze it as soon as our deal expires, otherwise we will lose our ivory when the border expands.

Unless we are planning a mass invasion, 5 caravels is overkill. As I said before, the sea blockade doesn't work anymore. We will be better off with a couple of galleons instead (although personally I don't think we need any ships).

Why are there 3 knights heading to Greece? They are veterans, so by the time we get a leader from any of them, it will be too late to ship it back. (There is no point in getting them promoted to elite as we will have cavs before too long). We should take advantage of the knights' speed to allow us to defend our island with less units.

We are currently paying 94gpt on unit support. I have looked at our military to see where we can make savings. We are currently supporting:
2 workers
2 archers (1 elite, 1 elite*)
2 horsemen (1 vet, 1 elite)
16 muskets (16 vet)
7 knights (7 vet)
1 army
9 NuMercs (3 vet, 3 elite, 3 in army)
8 MDI (4 vet, 3 elite, 1 elite*)
10 catapults
5 caravels

We should disband:
1 elite* archer
4 vet and 1 elite* MDI
3 vet NuMercs
3-5 caravels
1 army (inc. 3 NuMercs)

This will save 32 - 36 gpt which can be spent elsewhere. The vet horse should be upgraded to a knight. That is 8 knights, so if we build 7 more, then 15 should be plenty to defend our territory. Overall these moves would save us 18 - 22 gpt, depending on how many ships we keep.

Is 8 elite units too many? If so then we could also disband the archer and NuMercs.

When we get metallurgy the catapults should be upgraded to cannons. This should cost 200g for 10 of them.

I don't like that new Roman town. It needs to go as soon as our ROP deal expires.

 

[Bede]

Got it.

Will play tonight if I can but may have troubling uploading log and save until late tomorrow as the DSL is not running right.

 

[Bede]

1300
Disbanding troops can wait until we have something meaningful to build, like factories and we are not short of cash and trading opportunities.

Replace the Persian furs for wool with Indian furs for spices.

1305
India joins Germany against the Greeks.

And everybody in the world learns Metallurgy.

1310
Recall the knight-laden caravels

Bismarck wants to extort wool. Nope.

1315-1335
Not much of interest other than some lucrative map dealing and we now have a full picture of the world. The Greeks land a longbow at Heidelberg which kills a German defender and then is in turn killed by an elite MDI but no promotion.

1340
Trade the Celts Democracy for silks, Navigation and all their money.

Trade wool to Germany for Incense and their treasury 27g.

Newton's complete. Utica starts on Magellan's.

1350
Trade Persia Democracy for horses and his treasury.

We can trade Babylon ToG for 90gpt and 48g.
Or to Germany for 30gpt and 69g.
Physics to the Turk for 17gpt and 76g.
Magnetism to India for 58gpt and 47g.

Utica is building Magellan's as a prebuild for Universal Suffrage. At the current spending rate we are ~10 turns from Industrialization. Or we could detour through Economics for Smith's Trading should somebody research it for us.

Our 20K date is now 1806.

Firaxis score: 663
Jason score: 878

There is a large force ready to deal the Romans what they deserve at Caesaraugusta and covering the approaches to Leptis Minor.

 

[fbouthil]

I think we should build Magellan instead of USuffrage for now. Magellan is 400sh for 3cpt and USuffrage 800sh for 4cpt.

Once it is finished, in a little bit less than 16t because of the RRoads, then rush a factory & coal plant. At that point, we should try to get Smith and switch to USuffrage if we miss it. Smith is as good as USuffrage in term of sh/cpt at 600sh for 3cpt. At that point, Utica should have about 60shpt so it should be able to build Smith in 10t or so.

Utica is a little bit less protected than I would like. If Greece decides to land troops next to it, we can only bring 1 knight there in 1t. I suggest bringing 1 musket from Zak#1. We will also need a few more units in Utica to disband so we can rush the factory and the coal plant in 1t each.

Remember to use elites as much as possible when attacking Rome. If we get one very soon, we could use it to rush Magellan, and get a head start on Smith. If we have a good start on Magellan, then we could wait to rush Smith or USuffrage. I would prefer Smith as we are pretty sure to get USuffrage and at that point it will take only 2 more turns to build USuffrage instead of Smith.

@Bede: How much of a head start do the other civs have on Magellan? BTW, excellent position to attack Rome!

 

[Zakharov]

Got it. I will play tomorrow so I can wait for any comment from other team members. We get Steam Power in three turns. Depending on coal location, I may stop and ask for opinions.

Disbanding troops can wait until we have something meaningful to build, like factories and we are not short of cash and trading opportunities.

Fair point. I didn't realise we had so much cash (2000+) when I suggested the disbands.

Our alliance with Germany against Greece ends in 5. I will negotiate peace when the time comes.

Nice attack force surrounding the Romans. Should I go all out to remove them from our island, or should I leave a couple of the small towns for leader farming? During the war I will leave Leptis Minor undefended to make sure they don't attack veteran units. I will of course cancel the ROP deal before declaring war.

We should not be making per turn deals with Germany, as we will want to remove Heidelburg before it expands and swallows our ivory.

There are two civs building Magellan's, the Ottomans and Persians. The Persians are currently in anarchy, so they have no chance of beating us. The Ottoman city is size 11, so I doubt it could beat Utica. Should I investigate the city?

I think we should build Magellan instead of USuffrage for now. Magellan is 400sh for 3cpt and USuffrage 800sh for 4cpt.

Once it is finished, in a little bit less than 16t because of the RRoads, then rush a factory & coal plant. At that point, we should try to get Smith and switch to USuffrage if we miss it. Smith is as good as USuffrage in term of sh/cpt at 600sh for 3cpt. At that point, Utica should have about 60shpt so it should be able to build Smith in 10t or so.

I was going to say the same thing. I would rather get Magellan's and Smith's than just USuffrage. Hopefully we will get a leader.

Instead of Wealth, I will start spitting out workers to join when we build hospitals.

 

[MOTH]

Good news (I think) from the spoiler thread. 5 Teams have posted in the spoiler thread now. I think we are in good shape for our 20K target. 2 other teams are also going for 20K: tao and Xteam.

Tao got a great leader between 550BC and 390BC, so their Heroic Epic will be earlier. They became a republic in 310BC and entered the middle ages in 90BC. They stopped research after republic. They list culture for 20K in order with no dates: temple, colossus, GL, GLH, Library, Heroic Epic, and Cathedral. I would guess that their 20K date would be similiar to ours because of the earlier Heroic Epic. Getting GW and all the early MA wonders should give us the bump.

Xteam is also goign for 20K and has a nice story. THeir 20K city is listed on the East Coast. Their first culture was GL in 975BC followedd by a temple and started a library. We had collosus, a temple, and GL by 925BC and a library shortly thereafter. In 775BC Rome gave up 3 cities and they switched to FP in their 20K city. 750BC found them with contacts with the other continent. They started research on republic in 875 but doesn't say when they finished. They entered the MA in 150BC. I would say that they are behind us as far as the 20K date goes, but the FP will help in the long run due to decreased waste and the additional culture.

As far as Firaxis score, we are gaining on both of these teams but this time includes our Golden Age. Its not clear if either team has had a GA yet. I'm was going to guess that Xteam had their GA happening between 1500 and 1250 as they had a 32 pt Firaxis bump, but they don't list a war until 900BC.

From 1000 to 750 we gained 28. Tao gained 26 and Xteam gained 25.
From 750 to 550 we gained 29. Tao gained 26 and Xteam gained 29.

As for other teams:
Ivan doesn't know what they are going for. They are barely outpacing our score from 1000-550.
Offa is going for Conquest. We are outpacing them in 1000-550

No other team has submitted a spoiler yet. We are outpacing every team that has submitted in both 1000 and 550.

 

[Zakharov]

Getting GW and all the early MA wonders should give us the bump.....

.....As far as Firaxis score, we are gaining on both of these teams but this time includes our Golden Age. Its not clear if either team has had a GA yet. I'm was going to guess that Xteam had their GA happening between 1500 and 1250 as they had a 32 pt Firaxis bump, but they don't list a war until 900BC.

The graph on the uploads page is misleading for us, as we didn't settle Leptis Minor and therefore get full 5 city territory until turn 153. I think we will catch up once the graph advances that far.

I should add that we will be getting every single one of the MA wonders. (Turnlog on the way).

 

[Zakharov]

I am much more satisfied with these turns than my last set.

1350(0)- Trade Magnetism to Babylon for 114gpt, 31g + WM, and to India for 41gpt + 15g.
Trade Physics to Celts for 12gpt, 18g + WM, and to Ottomans for 17gpt, 76g + WM.
I move a musket from Hippo to Utica. I want to leave LMOZ1 well defended as it is our capital. Leaving the capital poorly defended is an open invitation to the AI to declare war.

IBT- Celts and Babylon both want to extend their peace treaties with us, I accept.

1355(1)- I move into position on the Roman border, cancel all deals with them, then declare war. I capture 2 slaves and move the troops over the border. I move the defenders out of Leptis Minor to draw the Roman troops towards it.

IBT- A Roman spear moves.

1360(2)- I bombard Caesaraugusta, 1 unit hit, 1 pop lost and the rest missed. I will try again next turn.
Bombard Byzantium, 2 hits, elite MDI attacks - no leader. I capture the town but there is nothing to sell, so I abandon it.

IBT- We discover steam power. Industrialization in 8 @ 100%. The HG is now obsolete, but our people are still happy. We have coal.
I had a bad feeling that there would be none on our island, but I need not have worried.
There is one source 2 NE of Utica and the other 3NW of Leptis Minor. Utica gets an extra 2 shields from the coal.
I check which other civs have coal, the Persians, Babylonians and Germans have 2 each and the rest have none.

1365(3)- I start the workers around Utica building rails. I change production in all cities to workers to help build rails. I didn't want to do this before in case we had no coal.
Bombard Caesaraugusta. 3 hits. Elite MDI attacks - no leader. Elite horse attacks - no leader. The town is autorazed, but I capture 2 slaves.
The troops march on towards Pisae.

IBT- 2 Roman settler pairs spotted.

1370(4)- Bombard one pair. Elite MDI attacks - no leader, 2 slaves taken.

IBT- Celts declared war on the Persians.
Indians and Celts are building Magellan's.

1375(5)- I cancel the alliance with Germany against Greece.
I sign peace with the Greeks and get 6g + WM.
Bombard 2nd settler pair. Elite MDI attacks - no leader, 2 slaves taken.
I MM the cities for more food after building workers.

IBT- Persians found a city where Byzantium stood. Sorry guys, I forgot to block those tiles. However, this makes the decision on whether to eliminate Rome easy, as Persia can be used for future leader farming.

1380(6)- I am building granaries to recover the pop lost to workers more quickly. They can be sold when they are no longer needed (at size 20).

1385(7)- Bombard Pisae units to 1hp each. Elite horseman attacks - LEADER [dance]
Vet Knight attacks - no promotion. I capture Pisae, nothing to sell so I abandon it.
I send the leader to Utica.

IBT- A Roman spear makes a run at the undefended Leptis Minor.
3 civs have Military Tradition - Germany, India and Ottomans. I decide that we don't desperately need it in the next 3 turns, so I will wait and see what the team thinks about trading for it.

1390(8)- Bombard the suicide spear. Attack with a vet knight - no promotion.

IBT- Babylon demands spices. They are paying us 114gpt for another 12 turns, so I accept their demands. This will not be forgotten however! Some alliances against them may be in order at some point in the future.
A Roman longbow appears.

1395(9)- Bombard longbow. Vet knight attacks - no promotion.

IBT- The Romans request an audience. I laugh at them.

1400(10)- I upgrade the elite* horseman to a knight.

Score: 687 (2nd to Babylon; 696), Jason 910.

The save:
1400AD SAVE

Notes:

Possible deals for ToG: Ottomans will give 13gpt + 35g + MTrad. Germans will give 3gpt + 374g + MTrad, Indians will give 35gpt + 74g + MTrad.
There are no other gpt deals available. The Germans and Ottomans are scientific and will receive a free tech if we make this trade.

Magellan's is now in 3. Industrialization in 1. The leader is in Utica. No-one has economics yet. Therefore here is my plan of action for Utica:

- Finish Magellan's, then rush USuff with leader. Then rush a factory and a coal plant, then hand build Smith's. Unless:

- If another civ gets economics before we build Magellan's, they will be able to switch to Smith's from a Magellan's prebuild. In that case, finish Magellan's, rush Smith's, rush a factory and coal plant, then hand build USuff.

The first option is best as USuff costs 200sh more than Smith's, so will take about 3 turns longer to build. We just have to hope no-one else gets economics.

For research, we should get economics next (in 4 turns), then medicine and sanitation so we can build hospitals.

I suggest we don't attack the Roman cities until the leader is used 4 turns from now. We can then use elites again. If a unit comes out towards Leptis Minor then it can be picked off with vets.

Utica will hit 10K culture and expand next turn.

I have built granaries in the other 4 cities to help with the worker production. When they get back to size 12, more workers should be built.

The plan is to fully develop all city tiles, then join the workers back once we get hospitals. Obviously we should get Utica up to size 20 first, then worry about the other cities.

We are currently 101 turns from 20K. This will reduce when we build Smith's and USuff. There are also 3 buildings that will double in culture during this time. We have only 2 sets of 10 turns each left at maximum.

I have set the builds in Hippo and Theveste as ironclads to defend our shores. Change them if you wish.

I am building cannons in Leptis Minor and LMOZ1, as I like to have 20-30 cannons/artillery for defence.

8 turns until we can remove Heidelburg. 10 until we can declare on Persia.

We could build the remaining embassies for 302g.

I have upgraded 3 caravels to galleons for 60g.

The two caravels at the N and S poles are fog clearing at the very edge of the map.

We have a total of 24 slaves.

EDIT: The tile improvements for size 20 cities are: RR all land tiles, mine all hills, mountains and tundra (obvious I know), then for each city:
Utica - mine all tiles
Leptis Minor - mine all tiles
Hippo - mine all tiles except one grass which should be irrigated.
LMOZ1 - Irrigate 3 plains and 4 grass. Mine the other 5 grass.
Theveste - Irrigate the sheep plains and all grass.

This assumes that all forests are chopped.


Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck (skipping until Tuesday, he should be back in time)
MOTH
Bede
Zakharov - just played

 

[Zakharov]

Here are two images from the latest save. The first is the southern front showing the decimated Romans and the new Persian town. The second shows the Utica rail construction project using the new coal mine.

 

[Bede]

Well done again.


If we can pick up MilTrad cheap then do it as the Academy makes a nice pre-build for 600 shield buildings and it looks like we can do it and still get all the cash and coin. As Zak said, though, no hurry to do it, and we could consider holding ToG until somebody researches Econ for us.

What have we got for trade bait for IA tech when we trade the other guys forward to the IA?

 

[Zakharov]

What have we got for trade bait for IA tech when we trade the other guys forward to the IA?

We have Steam Power and Industrialization. Hopefully they will get Medicine, but isn't it usually Nationalism in PTW? We also have wool to trade.

I don't think MilTrad is vital. As long as we have plenty of cannons/artillery then knights will be good enough to kill a 1hp unit. The rails will mean we need less units for defence, as they can move anywhere on the island. I have already connected all 5 cities. If we can get MilTrad cheap however, then go for it.

 

[Bede]

We have Leo's so the upgrade to cavalry will be cheap and we still need a prebuild greater than 300 shields (the Military Academy and an army are both 400 IIRC and the Academy itself is at least one culture point). As long as we can get all the gold and MilTrad I think it is a good deal.

 

[fbouthil]

Great setup Zakharov! Wow!

My plan for tomorrow night (I do not have the time to play tonight and want the team opinion):

• I need units to disband in Utica to rush the factory and coal plant in 1t each. I could use the cannon and the knight already there, but I think it would be best if I brought 2 vet NuMercs from the stack near Neapolis.
• Since we are less than 2 rounds from victory, I will wipe the romans from face of the simulated earth. If we are getting a GL, it should be as soon as the current GL is consumed or never. Building a 3cpt wonder in 1t instead of 10t only gives us 27 more culture. Of course the next wonders will also be 9t faster, so I think a GL should give us victory 1t or 2t faster now and even less later.
• I am wondering what exactly you mean by cheap price for MTrad, but India would trade it + 74g + 35gpt for ToG or alone for Wool + 660g. Are those deals good enough?
• There is only one land tile that Utica cannot labor at size 12. I do not think getting hospitals should be the priority. To reinforce my point, here is a small prediction on the timeline (correct me if I make mistakes):

Production in Utica:
(3) Magellan
(4) USuff
(5) Factory
(6) Coal Plant
(16) Smith
(20) Last turn we can use the palace as prebuild for ToE
(22) Last turn we can use the MilAcad as prebuild for ToE
(26) ToE

Research:
(1) Industrialisation
(5) Economics
(12) Medicine
(22) Electricity
(29) Scientific Method (same research cost as Medicine according to editor)

If we do not want to lose any production on something else than culture in Utica, we have no choice but to trade or gift scientific civs into IA until we can trade Medicine with them. We certainly do not have time to make a detour by Sanitation (6t or 7t to research). Even so, we may have to slow down production in Utica for a turn or two.

Of course, if someone has a trick up his sleave to know in advance what the free tech of other civs will be, it would help. I always thought it was random, but I am not sure.

The only culture I see after ToE is MilAcad, IAgency, Hoover and a palace. All at 400sh/cpt. Can we build Hoover? Civilopedia says we only need a river to build it, but I think we need Mountains also, but I am not sure of that either.

So, I think we should wait until we have researched espionage & electronics before researching sanitation.

 

[fbouthil]

One last thing: IMHO, we have plenty of cannons for now. Should I switch every city to factory in 1t?

 

[Bede]

Hospitals are good for milking the score: more population, more happy people, higher score, though I would not make a research detour to get them.

It's like MilTrad, if somebody else does the research buy it and build them everywhere but Utica.

I wouldn't sweat factories other than Utica unless we have nothing more useful to build. The most expensive military unit we can build is 80 shields and RRing should get us to the 20 needed for cavalry in 4. In other words, keep building cannons.

On the trades for ToG, just make sure to get all the gold and gpt you can first, then go for MilTrad and pay cash only if you can and we can afford it.

 

[Zakharov]

The only culture I see after ToE is MilAcad, IAgency, Hoover and a palace. All at 400sh/cpt. Can we build Hoover? Civilopedia says we only need a river to build it, but I think we need Mountains also, but I am not sure of that either.

Hoover can be built in any city that has a river anywhere in its city radius. Utica is on a river so it most certainly meets this condition. I have never heard of a mountain being needed, I'm sure it's only the river.

Regarding the trade, I think you should wait until we have Magellan's built, then decide what to do. If another civ gets economics, you will have to trade for it and rush Smith's to break the wonder cascade. Otherwise you will be free to rush USuff and then go back for Smith's and trade the other civs into the IA.

The reason I suggest hospitals is because a size 20 city will produce a lot more commerce, and therefore a lot more science than a size 12 city. Your timelines do appear to suggest it may not be worth the effort, though if Utica needs to slow its prebuilds, it will have time to get a hospital.

I say wait until we have economics, by research or by trade and then make the decision. If the AI civs are not already in the IA, trade them into it and see what the free techs are. If medicine is one of the free ones, then trade for it and go for sanitation. If medicine is not available for trade, then maybe ignore sanitation.

Remember that Babylon is not a scientific civ in this game. Only Greece, Germany, Persia and the Ottomans are. I suggest you trade all four into the IA at the same time to give them the maximum chance of getting Nationalism and Medicine as free techs.

You are right that there is not much culture to be had in the IA. If we can boost our science, we may be able to get a research lab and a modern wonder (SETI?) which could shave another turn off of our finish date.

For the MTrad trade, I suggest you wait until you have got the scientific civs into the IA, then you may be able to tack it onto an IA tech trade, eg. Steam Power + lux/gold for Nationalism + MTrad.