SGOTM4 - Team Grayarea

[King Alexander]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD1250_01.SAV

Tean sorry, but I had an "accident" with my Internet Explorer(shut down), and, unfortunately, I lost all my notes, since I write them here

I'll tell you how the situation is:

We've build banks in Carthage, Utica, Hippo, and they're set on wealth.

I traded with the Ottomans for Music Theory for 67g(cheap), since the Persians and Greece had traded it in between.

I started on Economics(currently set in 6 turns), and I also started a palace pre-build in Rome for Smith's: Rome should work immediately the tile that the 2 workers are planting a forest(when they're done), to increase it's shields.

Theveste needs 10 turns to finish Bach's, and I think that it should be ours, if nothing bad happens(but I doubt it).

Our bet is to NOT TRADE ECONOMICS if: We haven't built first Bach's in Theveste(and we shouldn't trade Economics the same turn that we complete Bach's, of course.

If there is a good trade for tech out there and someone is paying good money, and AFTER we have built Bach's, we can trade Economics.

I also traded Keltoi Astronomy for gold(don't remember how much) and 3gpt.

Germany demanded Astronomy, I refused and they declared war: that was happened 4 turns before I finish my turns.

We make +13gpt and we should begin to upgrade our units, slowly, of course, and since we have Leo's it's cheap.

Note: a Persian caravel is reight next to Utica, so, be prepared if the Persians declare again. Hit with catapults first.

After Economics we could start on Navigation for Magellan's and trade for other tech's, as we also don't want to lose the race for Newton's.

 

[Sir_Ortin]

Hi guys. I mismatched Mil.Academy with Pentagon. Thanks for correcting me.

I still think that we should build in Utica all high-culture wonders. As I can see from notes of K.A. (I was not looking into save yet), Bach's is building in Hippo, but not in Utica, which is producing wealth. This is incorrect, IMHO. Please, discuss it, if you think another.
If something happened, and we could not get UN, 20k victory would be possible only in Utica. This is why we should try to make a strong back-door to victory.

 

[Grayarea]

1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Playing next
3 Sir Ortin - Get ready
4 Alex top
5 Matternich

I got it, will play tonight or tomorrow night.

 

[King Alexander]

I still think that we should build in Utica all high-culture wonders.

I think the same as you - No objection about Utica -, but:
Theveste already had a palace pre-built for Bach's before my turns and Matternich did the right thing IMHO, by begin the pre-built at Theveste - because Utica was building university at the time, which gives very good culture.

The fault is mine, because I let Utica to complete the bank when I got the save and started playing , instead of begin a palace pre-build for Bach's.

My fear is if we're going to complete Bach's BEFORE anyone else has learnt Economics, so there is a cascade to Smith's(Rome is going for Smith's).

When we learn Economics, Rome should immediately switch to Smith's and, because the palace pre-built will be available, Utica should also immediately begin a palace pre-build and go for Magellan's after a while, and when(and if) we learn ToG before Magellan's is completed, switch to Newton's.

Of course, another pre-build should be made to also try for both Wonders if it's impossible to build both in Utica.

We can also try to "extend" a palace pre-built in Utica as much as possible if we don't have the tech's for Newton's/Magellan's, by working the coastal tiels as well as unimproved tiles or tiles with low shields.

btw: Team, I'm glad when we all comment on the game after each player has finished his turns, as we can understand easier what the previous player did and how things would go for us.
We can also comment on anything, so we all learn to play better, and Sir_Ortin( ) pointed a stupid move from me which would cause me to be more careful in my future strategy.

 

[Grayarea]

Other than the outlined options, is there anything I should be aware of?

Which of the upcomming wonders are highest culture and, therefore to built in Utica?

 

[Matternich]

Looks like economy is slowly strengthening. By the time steam arrives we should be able to research better.


Prebuilt in Theveste simply because it speeds up culture in that city and therefore widens southern cultural borders sooner. It's far too late for a single city cultural victory as that is best when EVERY wonder where possible is built in one city.

Theveste also has the highest shield output (when it has WLTQD) and it's easy to slow down shield production there when palace build overshoots the next tech giving the new wonder.

Incidentally Theveste will have a high population eventually so is a good candidate for those wonders which double Scientific research. Also for the same reason a wonder like shakesT. that gives happy faces. Utica may not grow as big.

Please build workers when possible. (I know I keep repeating this). Besides faster railroads it also means we have a supply of citizens to add to cities after hospitals. This speeds up growth into metropolis's and super metropolis's.

How about this- we build 12 settlers ready for Pentagon. (in between buildings). If we don't use them or don't want to they can be added back to the cities later on when hospitals are built.

Ok blame me for all the useless worker improvements outside cities- I just wanted them doing things.

 

[Grayarea]

Pre-flight

Not much to do

IBT

Persians demanded 3 gold and thought why not. They landed a immortal as soon as I said bye anyway!

Ottomans are building Bach's

1255AD (1)

ZZZ

IBT

We lost our furs and horses and Persia declares!
The immortal attacks Utica and our defender wins but is redlined.

1260AD (2)

Start generating attack for Ravenna, tis a blight on our wholesome continent!

Carthage Wealth > Merc

IBT

1265AD (3)

ZZZ

IBT

Babylonians are building Magellans
Carthage merc > merc

1270AD (4)

ZZZ

IBT

Keltoi is building Bach's

1275AD (5)

ZZZ

IBT

Economics > Navigation, is this the correct move or should I have gone for Tog? Anyway Smith's in 16 in Rome.

1280BC (6)

ZZZ

IBT

Persia lands 3 swords and attacks Theveste, two swords die for no losses.
Persia is building Magellans

1285AD (7)

Two cats redline remaining sword and a horse kills but does not premote.

Merc attacks Ravenna, kills spear flawlessly but does not premote. I abandon Ravenna. My first city capture in this game

IBT

Keltoi asks for economics I tell him to take a running jump, he backs down.

Babylon setteler lands in gap I left when attacking persian city. Sorry guys, did not think.

1290AD (8)

ZZZ

IBT

Babylon settle azzad in gap. It does not destroy any of our Colonies.

Persian sword lands near Theveste.

1295AD (9)

Attack sword, cats redline and merc kills and is promoted to elite.

IBT

Bach's is ours!

1300AD (10)

ZZZ

Score 761, yet upload said fraxis score 681, is this not the same score?

 

[Grayarea]

1 KA
2 Gray - Just played
3 Sir Ortin - Playing next
4 Alex top - Get ready
5 Matternich

 

[King Alexander]

A few points:

1) I'd like to remind everyone that we're still in war with Germany, but they don't want to talk at the moment.

2) It's nice that we completed Bach's, as expected.

3) Theveste must build it's bank, so we have a higher gpt, and the city expands in 3 turns, which means that we can have 3 units going elsewhere.

4) Rome can build Smith's in 11 turns and not 12, if we work the forest that is not worked(take a citizen from a 1-shield tile and assign him to the forest), and the the city can work 1 more forest before starvation, if we plant it, so it makes even more shields.

5) I thought that Utica was set to a palace pre-built at the end of the 5th turn, - after Rome could switch to Smith's and the palace was available as a pre-built - so it could go for Magellan's or Newton's when available.

We risk losing even Newton's if there is to be a cascade in the future from Magellan's.

Babylon started Magellan's after the end of our 3rd turn, which means that we were 1 turn behind for Magellan's, BUT, Babylon is building Magellan's in Neneveh(size 8 city), so we could build the Wonder for sure, because Persia also begun building it after our 6th turn.

I also don't know(the log doesn't say anything) if there was a cascade from Bach's to Smith's for the AI.

The Persians are building Magellan's in Persepolis(capital, size 12), so the possibilities are against us.

However, I'd strongly vote to begin Magellan's in Utica - Theveste needs bank -(palace first, as we don't know Navigation, but we'll learn it soon), as if there's even a slight possibility of taking it, we should go for it, and, besides, we have nothing to lose now, but only win.

If we lose the Wonder, we could switch to palace and "extend" it as much as we can, while we're working hard on science to get ToG, and if we see that the palace pre-built can't last long, abandon it immediately and begin a new palace pre-built for Newton's(all civs are missing the 3 techs required: chemistry, Physics, ToG).

Remember that Persepolis is being built too close to Tarsus and Antioch(less shields than it could work), and, as we all know, the AI makes entertainers when it hasn't the necessary luxuries or it simply manages it's city's citizens badly.
As for Neneveh, we'll see what it'll do.

6) We have 3 workers fortified in the mountains, but they're not needed there.
We can use the foreing worker to "occupy" a tile that can be settled, and use the 2 natives for roads and/or fortify them in our cities.

Remember that we need to "occupy" all the tiles that can be settled, so, built some more troops(we don't need many for this job now, as most tiles are "occupied").

Another idea is to "replace" some of our Elites that are on "occupation", and replace them, so we can attack more with Elites and give a shot for Leaders(that would make our life easier for the Wonders and MA/HE).

7) Akkad certainly needs to be destroyed: We may have to declare on Babylon, but we can't afford losing our wool's when the city will built a temple, and I really don't want anyone on our island anymore.

8) Persia will accept peace if we want to, but I'm thinking that we should give a chance and try for Great Leaders as much as we can. If we manage smart our Elites(bombing with catapults first), we could have a Great Leader(s).
It's the Team's decision, however.

9) I don't think that we can win a Diplomatic Victory, but built the U.N anyway, so we don't allow another civ to win the game, but, again, it's the Team's decision if we should try on Diplo.

P.S.: We all make our mistakes in a game, so, I have nothing against any member when I critic someone, just to know. We just play to improve our game and to have fun

EDIT: Just remember that an Elite* that has produced a Great Leader, won't produce another one, so he should attack LAST of all the available (nearby)units, as we'd lose a chance for another Great Leader or promoting a unit to Elite.
Also, when a Leader is made, he should be used right away(for a Wonder, or to form an Army), IF there're more Elites that will attack on the same turn, because, we can't have more than 1 Leader at the same time.

I wanted just to remind it, as I'm sure that you have heard of it

Remember to not trade Economics, so we have more "safety" of completing Smith's.

Please, post your thoughts

 

[Grayarea]

Well I am here to learn, and I think I am

I won't make the mistake of moving units and not blocking in future. I considered attacking the babs setteler before he settled but thought that two wars was enough and I also did not want to get in to the situation that everyone else pig piled on us.

I fortified the workers as I did not see anything for them to usefully do. In future I will move unused works to blocking duty if any is available.

On the elite frount usually I use elite units on attacks, but we had no elite merc units as far as I could see, and they had by far the best attack.

How do you find out which enemy city is building a particular wonder???

All other civs went from Bach's -> Maggellan, I noted all switchs in my notes.

 

[King Alexander]

Well I am here to learn, and I think I am

You are certainly learning/improving quickly , but so am I

I won't make the mistake of moving units and not blocking in future.

Maybe it wasn't your fault at all, if you hadn't enough units there.
Thing is, we all agreed to "occupy" every tile that can be settled, it's 1300AD and we're still discussing about it, and I don't know why. We need to occupy every tile that can be settled - simple enough.

We only have some units in mountains to keep an eye for barbs and watch if someone lands there, nothing more, and we only need those units as they currently are, because you we can see the nearby tiles so we don't need a unit in every mountain.

We don't need that many extra units for occupation anymore, just a few.

I considered attacking the babs setteler before he settled but thought that two wars was enough and I also did not want to get in to the situation that everyone else pig piled on us.

I understand your concerns. IMHO, there's not much danger because in a war, we're playing on our Home(in this type of map).
Just bombing with catapults and attack with some offensice units will do the job, and, besides, we can always produce more units if and when needed, as the AI needs many turns to unload other units on our island.

On the elite frount usually I use elite units on attacks, but we had no elite merc units as far as I could see, and they had by far the best attack.

I'd use our Elites only for Leader-fishing to attack injured units, so we're not lose any of them. Even Elite Hoplites(attack 2) could take on red-lined units with low defence or kill immediately warriors/archers(if we can't bombard first).

How do you find out which enemy city is building a particular wonder???

Hit F7.
It's good to have major events(AI Wonders as well as ours, wars, etc...) in bold so we can find the logs easier when needed.
If the AI loses a Wonder, it's city would switch to another one and you can see from F7 if id did so and also see the if the city is the same on(sometimes they switch, if the Wonder was on a low-shield city).

All other civs went from Bach's -> Maggellan, I noted all switchs in my notes.

I don't remember if Persepolis was building Bach's(I think it was another city, a former Indian city: I'll try to track it on the logs), that's the problem.

ONLY 2 civs are currently building Magellan's: Persia and Babylon(F7).

That's why I said that we might have a chance of getting it, even if it's a small chance.

Before playing, we could read all the posts/comments that were posted after the last save, so we know/keep in mind many ideas/issues.

 

[King Alexander]

I can't find where Persia was building Bach's from looking at the logs, but I could swear that it was the northern-most, former Indian city(I don't remember the name).

 

[Sir_Ortin]

Hi guys!
I got the game and will play tonight.

 

[Matternich]

If we get GL I suggest building an army rather than a GW especially if diplomatic victory is looking less likely. Don’t count it out however.
Mostly wars only make just the opponent furious, especially when good relations already exist with others. Culture of civ and gov also play a part.

A great way to keep friendly with other nations is to bribe them into military alliances.
Weaker nations can even be destroyed and so won't vote against us. This is important when at war as it also prevents the enemy from buying other nations to join in the attack.
Wiping out a nation completely is not liked by the AI, but with the right trading/gifting
even an old enemy can turn polite after enough turns.

Hope we are lucky with the Wonder cascade thing. I was surprised we beat Greece last time. The AI often neglects improving tiles as efficiently so there's a chance we'll make it.

BTW- I think the graph has a cut off date so it does't show the last save- hence our lower score.
Edit- now looking at the graph I am wrong. Our Firaxis score has not taken in the last score, but why I dont know. Maybe it only includes 1350 or more.

 

[King Alexander]

@Sir_Ortin: start the palace ptr-build in Utica at the pre-turn, so we won't waste another turn. It's a small(perhaps very small) possibility that we're going to take Magellan's, but I can't see what we have to lose now.

If we use the first GL to form an Army, make sure that it'll attack someone, so we later build HE/MA in Utica.
20k is not out of the game, but I don't know if it'll be good for us(for the score), to wait until well inside the modern ages.

When we're going to strike Akkad, better to not be at the same turn as we declare at Babylon(they'll get furious), so just move troops inside, declare, and strike the next turn.
Just be careful not to withdraw troops from tiles that can be settled because someone else will settle again. We have some troops inside the cities that can "replace" Elite occupation units(but leave at least an offensive unit inside each city - don't withdraw all).

As for the score, I don't know.

 

[Sir_Ortin]

1300(0) - Changed production in Utica to built Palace. Theveste start build Bank. Carthage and Hippo start build settlers.
IBT: Babylon and persia now at alliance against us. Good.

1305(1) - Move our elite units to Akkad.

1310(2) - Carthage and Hippo both build settlers, start wealth.
IBT: Babylon attack our hoplite with (forget the name of unit) from Akkad, our hoplite won with 1 hp left.

1315(3) - Start to bomb Akkad, three shots missed. I suppose our artillerist just had not expirience yet.
IBT: Greece and persia have signed alliance against us.

1320(4) - Reserched Navigation, start Chemistry. Bobm Akkad, 4 shots, 2 hits - Spearman inside have 1 red. Persian mercenary killed spearman in Akkad, no damage, no promote. Utica changed to MagellansVoyage. Traded Ottomans Chemistry and world map for our economics. Traded Keltoi Silk + world map + 2gpt for our whool. Traded Viking world map for our wool. I hope no more civs now will start war with us. Start research Physics at 30% (17 turns).
IBT: Persian landed immortal near Theveste. ~6 ships are heading us.

1325(5) - Bomb persian immortal - 3 shots - 3 hits! Our piople learn really quick! ) Killed immortal (with 1 hp) with veteran horse, no upgrade, no damage. Sell world map to Ottomans for 28g.Sell world map to Keltoi for their world map + 9g + 3gpt.
IBT: Greece and Percia start Smith's Trading Co. German landed near Theveste 1 pikeman and 2 frankish axeman.

1330(6) - Bomb german - 3 shots, 2 hits of pikeman. Two our horseman take each by 1 hp from german axmen and safely retreated.
IBT: German troops move imnside our territory - very good that they did not pillage.

1335(7) - Theveste built Bank, start Settler. Bomb germans - 5 shots, 4 hits. Damn! They loaded back 1hp pikeman into galley and sail away. Killed 2 german axemen with our elite - no promotion, no damage.
IBT: Babylonian asked for peace, I said no! Ottomans start build Smith's Trading Co. Persia landed one Immortal. Babylon landed pikeman and swordsman.

1340(8) - Bomb landed troops. This is incredible, but true: 8 shots, 8 hits!!! All landed troops are now 1hp. Our mercenary killed pikeman and produce a leader. I decided to build army. Killed 2 remains troops, no damage, no upgrade. Traded Keltoi
Democracy for our Economics and Chemistry.
IBT: Keltoi start build Smith's Trading Co.

1345(9) - Not much, just moving.
IBT: Babylon lands Azap infantry and longbowman.

1350(10) - Bomb babylon troops - 8 shots, 3 hits. Our army now has victory - killed longbowman! Hoplite killed azap infantry and produce another leader. I HAVE NOT MOVED THE LEADER YET. Let next payer to move him according to the team's desision.

Now we must decide what to do with the leader. There are 3 ways:
1. Immediatelly hurry Magellan's in Theveste and switch to HeroicEpic in Utica. Good is our building speed. Bad is that we will lost more then 50 shields in Utica and all future culture from Magellan's. Good is - we save time.
2. Move leader to the Utica and hold him there until we can hurry from zero some wonder Shaks.Theatre or Newton's univer. Bad is that we can lost Magellan's (6 more turns to build). Good is - we will collect more culture in Utca quicker for 20k victory.
3. Found new 3 cities and produce second army.

I recommend to use second choice and save the leader for new wonder. I think that war will end soon and possibility to produce another leader soon is very low.

 

[Sir_Ortin]

I still think we can do a 20k victory. Not enough quick, but granted victory.

 

[King Alexander]

Our mercenary killed pikeman and produce a leader. I decided to build army.

Glad to hear that we now have an Army and can build HE/MA(In Utica of course!)

Hoplite killed azap infantry and produce another leader. I HAVE NOT MOVED THE LEADER YET.

That's indeed GREAT news!!!!

1) Just to remember: we need 5 more units to "occupy" all the available tiles for settling: there'd always be a settler trying to reach those tiles, if we don't occupy them, and we should do.

We have 3 workers fortified near Carthage, and if we take 2 horses from Rome, we occupy everything!

Later on, we'll "replace" the workers in occupation with units, before railroads are to come(I hope we get coal, as it was unfair that we don't got horses on our whole island).

2) About the Great Leader:

Here's the situation with our cities; Rome completes Smith's next turn
Utica needs 6 more turns to complete Magellan's.

It takes risk, but, I'd let Utica to complete Magellan's in 6 (IF we're lucky): we may lose the Wonder but we could always change it to the HE if we lose the Wonder(never mind for the shields). Utica is our only hope for 20K victory.

We could then use the GL to hurry a Wonder asap, and, maybe claim both Shakespeer's and Newton's.

Utica should always be building a Wonder or have a palace in pre-built:
The Military Academy(1cpt) can't be counted out, as it gives some culture that could save us some turns in a 20k Victory: it'll be clever from us if we use the MA as Utica's pre-built to get the US and ToE. The MA can always be built in Utica when a Wonder won't be in our way.

Later on, we'll have the Universal Suffrage, ToE, etc...

Just check the Diplo every turn to see what techs the other civs have, so we khow what's going on.

3) Keltoi will give their WM + 20g +6gpt for our spices.
Ottomans will give WM + 64g for our Ivory OR WM + 64g + 6gpt for Ivory + Wool.
Vikings will give WM + 16g for our WM.


4) As for the war, I'd say that we could go on, but we could hope for another GL, only if we first use the current one. I don't have a problem to continue the war for some more turns.
If we do continue the war while we have the GL, DO NOT ATTACK with Elites, but give a chance to other units to promote.

Suggestions?

 

[Matternich]

Hooray!! 2 GL's Well done Sir Ortin!!!

Agree with KA as to what to do with them regarding wonders etc..
Except for no.4 about not attacking with Elites which I would do as a Great Leader in the hand is worth two in the promotional bush. If S_Ortin had followed that advice we wouldnt have had a second GL.

Anyone any comments about military alliances?

Also don't let the 20k city victory get in the way of overall strat. Won't a city wide cultural victory happen first?

.

 

[AlanH]

Score 761, yet upload said fraxis score 681, is this not the same score?

[/lurk]
You had me worried, so I downloaded your 1300 AD and 1350 AD saves and loaded them up. In F8 they give scores of 681 and 704 respectively, and that's what's in the database for your saves. I think you may be looking at Persia's score, which happens to be 761 at 1300 AD, and not neoCarthage's?
[lurk]