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SGOTM4 - Team Ivan
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,413
Moving the settler SE and worker S sounds good to me.
I disagree with that.
I think, my original plan (Settler NE and City there) is good opening. City will pick up three BGs and Cow. Also forests generates 2 shields each. We may go to 20K with our capital. Or try Diplo if nobody want Conquest. Certanly, we MUST build 3 warriors and settler before we go to Pyramids (TGL prebuild). Do not trade masonary then. I never tried 20K in my games, will think about optimal research-prebuild strategy for that.
Regards, Ivan
I disagree with that.
I think, my original plan (Settler NE and City there) is good opening. City will pick up three BGs and Cow. Also forests generates 2 shields each. We may go to 20K with our capital. Or try Diplo if nobody want Conquest. Certanly, we MUST build 3 warriors and settler before we go to Pyramids (TGL prebuild). Do not trade masonary then. I never tried 20K in my games, will think about optimal research-prebuild strategy for that.
Regards, Ivan
Ok, I just messed around running a monarch game as the french with a river and cow and some BGs at the start location. warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, pyramids should yield a GL about the exact time that literature is finished researching if we go 40turn writing and then max research on literature. I think there is almost no risk that any other civ will build the pyramids before that. That is, of course, a commitment to going 20k. My target Ancient Age build order would be warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, Great Library, library, temple, oracle, hanging gardens.
The other cities would have to handle everything else. If we find another ideal city location very nearby in our early scouting then we could transition to using the second city for our 20k, but it looks for now that this is the best spot we can hope for.
If we start on the coast instead I would argue that we should build colossus before trying for oracle. It's worth a lot of culture and a lot of future benefit in a 20k city.
I don't know much about ideal early starts for diplomatic or space race. I also am not sure how much we want to trade techs and/or gift them to other civs to keep the pace up in this game. We'll be competing with them to build wonders but if the tech pace gets too slow we WILL simply run out of wonders to build. I think that once one of them completes the pyramids (hopefully there will be no cascade) we should be more or less in the clear to be able to build the other wonders first.
Ivan, you're the team leader and I think a better player than me. I'll lay out the reasons I like SE better than NE and I don't mind if the decision goes against me. SE is directly next to the cow allowing us to immediately irrigate it and start growing our city very fast... thus enabling us to get to size 4 before the settler completes if we keep citizens off the forests. SE is on the better side of the river for future troop movements. SE is not next to the mountain which could be a home to enemy troops or barbarians. The placement on top of the forest will not lose a forest because two more spaces SE is another forest. Also, the space SW SW looks like another BG which we will lose if we go NE (but it may be a plains). To me the biggest difference is being able to reach size 4 before the settler completes.
The other cities would have to handle everything else. If we find another ideal city location very nearby in our early scouting then we could transition to using the second city for our 20k, but it looks for now that this is the best spot we can hope for.
If we start on the coast instead I would argue that we should build colossus before trying for oracle. It's worth a lot of culture and a lot of future benefit in a 20k city.
I don't know much about ideal early starts for diplomatic or space race. I also am not sure how much we want to trade techs and/or gift them to other civs to keep the pace up in this game. We'll be competing with them to build wonders but if the tech pace gets too slow we WILL simply run out of wonders to build. I think that once one of them completes the pyramids (hopefully there will be no cascade) we should be more or less in the clear to be able to build the other wonders first.
Ivan, you're the team leader and I think a better player than me. I'll lay out the reasons I like SE better than NE and I don't mind if the decision goes against me. SE is directly next to the cow allowing us to immediately irrigate it and start growing our city very fast... thus enabling us to get to size 4 before the settler completes if we keep citizens off the forests. SE is on the better side of the river for future troop movements. SE is not next to the mountain which could be a home to enemy troops or barbarians. The placement on top of the forest will not lose a forest because two more spaces SE is another forest. Also, the space SW SW looks like another BG which we will lose if we go NE (but it may be a plains). To me the biggest difference is being able to reach size 4 before the settler completes.
The war academy has a couple decent articles about 20k victories. Based on re-reading those I think that if we want to go for 20k we should build on the coast and get the colossus. We may also want to consider building a temple first. I guess the massive time differences are going to make communicating and deciding quickly pretty tough for this team.
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,413
Let me make things clear. I allways play Diety (other levels looks too simple) and on Deity you have to forget about Pyramids, etsc. I never play 20K on monarch, and what I read at Academy and SGs (OCC, Monarch for instance) was very boring. I am scientific militarist and prefer fast Conquest. If, however, we decide to go for 20K I am happy to learn. You may relay on my military-trade-diplo experience, but that's it.
BTW, Colosus give 3 cpt, and Pyramid 4 cpt. (Culture per turn). Also, we need to fight for GLs.
Regards, Ivan
Regards,
BTW, Colosus give 3 cpt, and Pyramid 4 cpt. (Culture per turn). Also, we need to fight for GLs.
Regards, Ivan
Regards,
Can we get a consensus on victory condition?
Going for conquest with 5cc means razing AI cities which means no possibility of diplomatic later. Going for conquest means an early barracks or two.
Going for 20k, diplomacy and/or space do not necessarily preclude each other. The start for each would be the same in my mind.
I might play tonight. If not tonight then tommorrow.
Personally conquest has become boring. I've never done 20k. I've done space and diplomacy.
Remember the laurel goes to the team with the fastest finish *RELATIVE* to the best date for the victory type.
Going for conquest with 5cc means razing AI cities which means no possibility of diplomatic later. Going for conquest means an early barracks or two.
Going for 20k, diplomacy and/or space do not necessarily preclude each other. The start for each would be the same in my mind.
I might play tonight. If not tonight then tommorrow.
Personally conquest has become boring. I've never done 20k. I've done space and diplomacy.
Remember the laurel goes to the team with the fastest finish *RELATIVE* to the best date for the victory type.
TheNemesis666
Warlord
I'd be keen for a space race, with only 5 cities it would be a nice challenge. 20k's get pretty dull towards the end, mostly it's just press enter, press enter, select new infra. build, press enter. Space with small nation will rely on ai assisted research and could add a bit of tension. (like we may actually see a space race 
But this is only monarch so we'll probably get robotics way before the ai do.
I vote space. Just to make my post clearer and work towards a consensus. (but am happy to go with the majority)
edit: space and 20k probably do start fairly similar but a 20k prefers a slower tech pace to avoid losing too many wonders to cascades.
But this is only monarch so we'll probably get robotics way before the ai do.I vote space. Just to make my post clearer and work towards a consensus. (but am happy to go with the majority)
edit: space and 20k probably do start fairly similar but a 20k prefers a slower tech pace to avoid losing too many wonders to cascades.
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,413
I'd like combine Conquest/Diplo/Space. This what I normally do on my Deity games.
I'd like to avoid war at the begining and if start to kill opponent competely.
Lets concentrate on farst research (Colosus, Copernicus and Newton will be our priority) If we get technological supremacy in Industrial age we may chose Conquest or Diplo. If not Space then.
Regards, Ivan
I'd like to avoid war at the begining and if start to kill opponent competely.
Lets concentrate on farst research (Colosus, Copernicus and Newton will be our priority) If we get technological supremacy in Industrial age we may chose Conquest or Diplo. If not Space then.
Regards, Ivan
I'll play tonight. I finally have some time. I'm ok with the space/diplomacy plan.
1st thing to research will be writing at minimum. Correct?
Build order will be war, war,war, settler. 1st war scouts south.
Ivan suggests settler NW. Others suggest Settler SW for fast irrigation of cow. No consensus so I'll guess at what is best long term.
Adrian
1st thing to research will be writing at minimum. Correct?
Build order will be war, war,war, settler. 1st war scouts south.
Ivan suggests settler NW. Others suggest Settler SW for fast irrigation of cow. No consensus so I'll guess at what is best long term.
Adrian
I've played
4000BC - send worker E revealing cow, decide to go with Ivan's suggestion settler NE
3950BC - found Carthage revealing a 2nd cow, spices, worker mines
3800BC - worker roads, warrior built, order another
3750BC - warrior heads south
3700BC - worker ne to get water to 2nd cow
3650BC - worker irrigate
3600BC - warrior built order another
3550BC - worker road
3400BC - worker to cow
3350BC - worker irrigate
3250BC - spot red border, lux to 10%
3150BC - worker sent to bring irrigation to other cow
3100BC - settler completes, order pyramids
3050BC - more exploration
I stop here with the settler yet to move, so we can discuss the next city site. I've played 19 turns. The next player should play 11 to get us back on track.
4000BC - send worker E revealing cow, decide to go with Ivan's suggestion settler NE
3950BC - found Carthage revealing a 2nd cow, spices, worker mines
3800BC - worker roads, warrior built, order another
3750BC - warrior heads south
3700BC - worker ne to get water to 2nd cow
3650BC - worker irrigate
3600BC - warrior built order another
3550BC - worker road
3400BC - worker to cow
3350BC - worker irrigate
3250BC - spot red border, lux to 10%
3150BC - worker sent to bring irrigation to other cow
3100BC - settler completes, order pyramids
3050BC - more exploration
I stop here with the settler yet to move, so we can discuss the next city site. I've played 19 turns. The next player should play 11 to get us back on track.
TheNemesis666
Warlord
mmm, 2 cows and spices, nice.
edit: can you post a screenshot? I'm at work so can't open the save from here.
edit: can you post a screenshot? I'm at work so can't open the save from here.
TheNemesis666
Warlord
city locations look pretty good, the only change I might suggest is move 2 south a bit into the fog but still on the coast. Next expansion from capital and the first expansion from 3 will grab most of the land to our west anyway.
(the only problem with the move south is there looks to be a lot of mt's there so it may not be suitable, but could be a possible iron or coal source later)
(the only problem with the move south is there looks to be a lot of mt's there so it may not be suitable, but could be a possible iron or coal source later)
I opened the save to look at how many mountains were south of proposed city site one and there are a lot. What do you think about the red circle instead. Lots of shield potential with 2 bonus food sources in the expanded city radius? I think once railroaded it will be a powerful city, but that's a ways away.
TheNemesis666
Warlord
is that rome or babylon to our south?
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,413
1) Set Lux to 0%.
2) We have to settle near fresh water first. I think spot 1 at dcsteve dot map is good for second city. Next one might be 2-3 tiles SW from point O of rrau's map. We have to restrict Romans from expansions toward to us.
3) Build order is the same as at start. We need more warriors for defence and MP, also we need second settler ASAP. Woker may connect Lux, another worker may connect Cities.
4) We may trade masonary to Romans and let them build Pyramids for us. As we do NOT go to 20K culture victory we need only economy domination wonders: Colosus, Copernicus, Newton. That's it. If we miss Colosus we may go to Lighthouse instead. Or give up on Colosus at all.
5) Another problem: at my load of save I see Aluminium instead of spices and Game at sea. At my another game (English) I do not see any strategical resources at all. Do anybody know, how to fix it?
Ivan.
2) We have to settle near fresh water first. I think spot 1 at dcsteve dot map is good for second city. Next one might be 2-3 tiles SW from point O of rrau's map. We have to restrict Romans from expansions toward to us.
3) Build order is the same as at start. We need more warriors for defence and MP, also we need second settler ASAP. Woker may connect Lux, another worker may connect Cities.
4) We may trade masonary to Romans and let them build Pyramids for us. As we do NOT go to 20K culture victory we need only economy domination wonders: Colosus, Copernicus, Newton. That's it. If we miss Colosus we may go to Lighthouse instead. Or give up on Colosus at all.
5) Another problem: at my load of save I see Aluminium instead of spices and Game at sea. At my another game (English) I do not see any strategical resources at all. Do anybody know, how to fix it?
Ivan.
