SGOTM4 - Team tao

[tao]

edit/add: I looked at trading for Nationalism several times, but they all wanted so much for it that it would seriously dent our income. Although our coffers are healthy now, at several points I felt that we would have to reduce our research - we were down to under 200 gold at one time and -39gpt

India is offering nationalism, 197g, 1gp, wm for corporation (Greece does not even agree to exchange nationalism-corporation).

And I would spend 72g to establish an embassy with India ro improve relations, maybe rop, but then we have to blockade Jaipur.

 

[tao]

Newsflash
I just looked at the submission page and team Bede has logged a 1780AD save. I conclude this to be their 20k victory.

This made me look at our save again:
Next turn, we should assign the mine from Carthage to Accipitridae and mine the irrigated plains. This will allow us to advance building ToE by 1 turn (says my spreadsheet). Followed by Hoover, Battlefield Medicine, Intelligence Agency, our 20k date will be 1745AD.

PS: The turn prior, we have 19.918 cp, thus even if we reach the Modern Age culture buildings, it won't help us. Or does it? If we push the AI research?

 

[Furiey]

Excellent News

I had been looking at the Tech Tree and thinking that we had a lot to research before we got any more Wonders and unless we wanted a gap when we were not building anything we would have to hurry the tech pace anyway.

Looking at what is left and turns to research:

Espionage             6
Refining             10
Steel                 8
Replaceable Parts     8
Combustion           10
Flight               11
Mass Production       8
Motorised Transport   8
Radio                [u]12[/u]
Total                81     (72 turns currently to 20k, 69 turns to 1745)

It's then 16 turns for Fission (UN = 4 and Manhattan = 2) and 15 for Computers ( Seti = 3). What's the free tech for scientific in vanilla - I can never remember? Is it Fission?

But how much can we reduce that? Halve it? Get the next Wonder by turn 40?

If assuming the Modern Age free tech has a Wonder and we can get buy it straight away does it help? (I've been using Civ Assist for 20k date - never got around to filling in the spreadsheet as well although I always meant to for future predictions as you can't include wonders you haven't got.) There are only 29 turns to the predicted 1745 20k date.

for 1 turn earlier we need an extra 82 culture in 28 turns. UN will give 84 Culture in 21 turns so IF we build it turn 47 we could get a turn earlier. A turn earlier still? Then we need an extra 208 culture! UN would give 108 assuming we get it turn 40, leaving a 100 extra culture required.

 

[tao]

What's the free tech for scientific in vanilla - I can never remember? Is it Fission?

Regrettably it's mostly rocketry.

With aggressive tech trading, we might(!) get espionage from the AIs. And if we go for radio (after rep parts, which we need for faster workers to clean the pollution and for its military benefit), we might get (parts of?) refining or steel.

And once we aggressively join workers, our research capability should nearly double. Or did you include this in your calculations already?

 

[Furiey]

No - that was assuming our current beaker production of 468 per turn continued.

assuming we increase our research to 800 per turn:

Espionage             4
Refining              6
Steel                 5
Replaceable Parts     5
Combustion            6
Flight                6
Mass Production       5
Motorised Transport   5
Radio                [u] 7[/u]
Total                49

Making it look more doable!

edit: Pushing on the tech pace though will mean a Greece with Infantry and Tanks. We will have to be careful with our wars! It would probably be less risky to hang on for what we can get now, but even 1 turn difference could make a difference in the race with the other teams, particularly as I would guess that the Jason date for 20k is the one that changed most with the loss of the Religious trait.

Joining Romans (we must make sure it is Romans) to our cities is a must ASAP. Luxes will be vital - so as we discussed: peace with the Keltoi and break the trade embargos to get the Silk for Wool, and the switch with the Ivory from Babs to Greece, with Babs getting the Wool.

 

[tao]

edit: Pushing on the tech pace though will mean a Greece with Infantry and Tanks.

I'm not worried; if we have a nice stack of artillery, we can defeat each invasion with ease.

 

[Furiey]

Our Artillery could come off blocking duty for a turn, but we also lose the luxes, we get currently 3 off them...

I think we have to go for it though!

 

[Zwingli]

It looks like there has been a huge amount of progress since I left .
Got it, but will take until tomorrow to finish after reading through the turn logs.

 

[Zwingli]

1400 AD (0)
Wake a worker and join it to Accipitridae. Trade and/or gift Electricity and Corporation around to India, Persia, and Greece (they will all start working on Replacable Parts unless they were researching Espionage). Make peace with Keltoi giving Physics for their spare gold.

As a result of the trading we have Nationalism + 188gpt and India has become polite.

1405 AD (1)
Aggressively join a whole bunch of Roman workers to our cities shaving a turn off Scientific Method. Send a task force toward Germany.

1410 AD (2)
Join more workers and start a courthouse in Carthage.

1415 AD (3)
Keltoi declare war on Greece.


1420 AD (4)
We learn Scientific Method and switch Accipitridae to TOE due in 3 turns, since we can't learn a tech in that time, research is shut off.

Germany is down to one city.

1425 AD (5)
Persia builds a city to our South on the open area on our continent

1430 AD (6)
Greece and Babylon sign peace

IBT- We finish TOE and learn Atomic Theory and Electronics, start Espionage.

1435 AD (7)
The Greeks found a gap in our shore blockade and build another city, because we have ROP, we can still block off their city unless it expands borders. We destroy the Germans at Frankfurt with two elite units (after using the leader) and the embargo against us with Persia ends.

We leader rush Hoover Dam, and set a couple of oversized metropolis to peel of a worker to join elsewhere.

IBT- Complete Hoover, start Battlefield Medicine.

1440 AD (8)
Sell off the Coal Plant in Accipitridae. We have a new source of coal (appeared) and Greece lacks coal.

1445 AD (9)
Buy Communism from Babylon for Industrialization + Scientific Method + 1000g
Sell Corporation to Babylon to get our gold back, then sell Communism to the other leading AI for asking price (not much). I left India with some gpt left to let them research.

Shave a turn off of Battlefield Medicine by mining all tiles around Accipitridae and starving the city temporarily. Rush Police stations in all other cities as there isn't much else to do with all our gold and they will slightly increase science rate.

1450 AD (10)
Turn down science with Espionage still due in 1.

Post-Turn
I think the AI will research Replacable Parts for us if we reseach other paths first. Since it gives the militia unit plus artillery plus infantry plus rubber plus faster workers, it is attractive for the AI to research compared with Steel, Refining, or Atomic Theory. We should also probably research Flight last since it will make the Colossus obsolete.

 

[tao]

Got it, will play tonite.

 

[tao]

I think the AI will research Replacable Parts for us if we reseach other paths first. Since it gives the militia unit plus artillery plus infantry plus rubber plus faster workers, it is attractive for the AI to research compared with Steel, Refining, or Atomic Theory. We should also probably research Flight last since it will make the Colossus obsolete.

We have the following choice (at 100%, 706 beakers):

• radio (8 turns)
• replaceable parts (6 turns)
• refining (7 turns)
• steel (6 turns)

We have 1 turn left on espionage. Afterwards, I probably will do radio, since in my experience it is the least likely candidate for AI research.

Despite of Zwingli's argument, I tend to do rep parts afterwards, because of the great benefit artillery will give us to both kill invaders and fight ships bombarding our shores.

Hopefully, the AI has done refining and/or steel by then.

This adds up to 40 - 53 turns in the industrial age (till between 1650AD and 1715AD), and I suppose 12(?) for the 1st (and probably only) Modern Times tech. Then we are in the years between 1710AD and 1760AD.

We might want to do Computers with SETI (we have to have a Leader ready) and research lab. IMHO UN and Manhattan Project give 1 more culture point, but we don't want to open Pandora's box. Let's calculate possible benefit (if any) when the time to decide comes.

Thus in the best case we get about 8 turns of 3 culture and 7 turns of 2 culture, in total 38 culture points.

Did I do this correct?

Once we have finished the IA and Battlefield, we will know whether this will be of any help. If not, we could use the money to increase our score by making citizens happy.

 

[tao]

Pre-turn:
change Utica and LM to frigates (1 turn builds), in case pesky Persians will try to bombard our shores; sell now worthless coal plant in Carthage for 20g

IBT Keltoi and Greece sign peace treaty

1455: we learn espionage start radio due in 8 at 100%, +209gpt (after deals), switch Accipitridae to Intelligence Agency due in 2
call galleons from Germany war back, send frigate to east-coast; upgrade some units
irrigate 2 Accipitridae mines to stop starvation; irrigate Theveste tile to stop starvation
donate 110g to Babylon, sell espionage for 65gpt, 182g, wm
donate 110g to Greece, sell espionage for 140g, wm
donate espionage to India, Persia
donate 110g to Keltoi, sell magnetism for 125g, wm
get wm, 9g from Vikings for wm

IBT pollution at LM; Keltoi galley close to south-eastern coast

1460: clear pollution; ships sail, distribute some troops; irrigate Carthage cow, join some workers
Greece deals incense, gems for spices; cancel the deal; renew incense, gems, wm, 7gpt for spices; donate Alex 7gpt
India gives 39gpt for spices, wool, ivory; cancel the deal; renew 45gpt, 42g, wm for spices, wool, ivory; donate 5gpt

IBT Keltoi drop settler and spear

1465: Intelligence Agency in Accipitridae s Battlefield Medicine due in 7
mine 2 Accipitridae tiles to get BM in 6 instead of 7 turns (even if pollution)
our galleys drop all units before going on to LM

IBT Viking galley appears near Greek Qitaiodea (next to our wool and iron colonies); let's hope they raze it; Keltoi found Verulamium

1470: shuffle troops; science down to 90%, 10% lux fore score; make room for Viking landing, in case they don't have berserks in galley

IBT trade embargo against us between Persia and Keltoi ends
Viking berserk razes Qitaiodea destroying 2 ships and taking pressure from our colonies
pollution strikes Theveste hill

1475: trade Keltoi wool, 1gpt for silks, wm, 1g
our frigate takes a peak at Oslo and it is defended by a spear only: time for a little raiding party to depose the Keltoi as potential lux competitor and naval attack threat (they are still at war with Greece); send 3 galleons from Accipitridae with 4 elite units

1480: Nidaros is also spear-defended
change 1st Accipitridae mine back to irrigation

IBT Greek frigate and galleon appear near Oslo, but we are 1 turn faster
2nd Persian convoy arrives in Gordium

1485: colonize another wool; change 2nd Accipitridae mine back to irrigation, now on food surplus again
trade wool to Babylon for 81g, wm and Hammurabi turns polite
trade wm to Vikings for wm, 2g; declare war; ships enter Viking waters and see galloglas (berserk) next to Oslo; block see access for Greek ships; frigates red-line galloglas; troops land

IBT Viking caravel moves north, pollution strikes Theveste, Greek convoy sails on to Nidaros

1490: frigate sinks Viking caravel getting red-lined; we attack Oslo: cavalry kills spear; elite knight red-lines spear and dies; elite cavalry kills spear; elite knight kills red-lined spear and razes Oslo giving 3 slaves; move towards Nidaros; make another slave; clean Theveste pollution, mm
change 7 scientist into taxmen (radio still in 1)

IBT Greek convoy moves on to Bjoergwin

1495: learn radio start replaceable parts due in 6 at 90% 810% lux for happiness/sccore); Battlefield Medicine in Accipitridae s coastal fortress; furs and horse deal w India ends; since several deals giving us gpt end next turn, we do not renew the deal immediately, since there are enough furs and horses available; do some mm

20k date is 1745AD; if we build SETI not later than 1670 (assuming we have a Leader by then) AND research lab 1675, it drops to 1740; later builds will have no effect (this is also better than UN and Manhattan, unless we get a Leader the exact turn we need it -- highly unlikely)

1500: Accipitridae b coastal fortress s wealth; drop Viking slaves at nearest coast
science down to 80% ???: India has replaceable parts; and is willing to give replaceable parts, horses, furs, 200g, wm, 120 gpt for atomic
Greece is willing to give 47gpt for atomic

Firaxis 711, Jason 941

post-turn:
I do NOT do the deals to be done this turn but leave it to the next player; we might want to NOT take the gpt from the AIs (we don't need it) in order to allow the AIs to research faster (I recommend doing so - or get it and donate it back); but we have to GET the Greek dyes and Greek or Indian furs!
donate replaceable parts to the Greece (at least, I'm not so sure Persia and Babylon should get it)
whether to research refining or steel? probably the AI goes refining, but I was wrong before ...
use lux and mm the cities for happiness (score) unless we need the research beakers; switch between scientists and taxmen for optimum output
I decided to move the units closer to Nidaros (there are at least 2 vet spears, 1 reg spear in the city) instead of making an attempt to get it now; you may also bring in enforcements via the galley that just dropped the workers; what we need is a Leader

Demiurge (up next)
Furiey
Zwingli
tao (just played)

 

[Furiey]

Excellent that the Persian city is gone without us having to be at war with Greece!

I was really annoyed that I left that gap open!

Edit: - Of course I meant that Greek city!

 

[Demiurge]

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

 

[Demiurge]

Sorry about the delay but I was unable to play last night.

1500 ad (pre-turn)
India will give horses, furs, replaceable parts, 200 gold and 121 gpt for atomic theory. We only take horses, furs replaceable parts and 200 gold so they can help with the research.
Gift replaceable parts to the Greeks
Set research to steel at 100%, due in 6
Changing taxmen to scientists doesn't speed research so I leave them
Move some troops around to protect borders. Upgrade some canons to artillery

IBT: Persia asks to end our ROP deal. We agree.

1505 ad (turn 1)
Carthage builds cavalry > next
Pollution strikes Accipitridae
Utica builds cavalry > next
Clear pollution near Accipitridae
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros leaving reg spear on top. Elite cav dies attacked reg spear in Nidaros not hurting spear at all. Elite knight defeats reg spear.
Move 3 hp elite knight out of territory to heal
Move some troops around to protect borders. Upgrade some canons to artillery

IBT: Persia and Greece have signed a MPP.

1510 ad (turn 2)
Pollution strikes Theveste
Load up some reinforcements and send to Nidaros
Clear pollution near Theveste
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros

1515 ad (turn 3)
Carthage and Utica build cavalry > next
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros

IBT: Persians build Bactra on Viking island. Viking bowman attacks rifleman and kills him.

1520 ad (turn 4)
Pollution strikes Carthage
Unload 7 cavalry and 1 rifleman near Nidaros
Clear pollution

1525 ad (turn 5)
Pollution strikes Leptis Magna
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros, pillage wheat near Nidaros
Clear pollution
Reduce science, steel in 1

IBT: Renew ROP with Babylon for 15 gold

1530 ad (turn 6)
We learn steel > refining at 100% in 7. Change taxmen to scientists, refining due in 6
Bombard Nidaros with canons and frigates. Move healed elite knight back toward Nidaros
Sell steel to India for 85 gold
Sell steel to Greeks for 91 gold

1535 ad (turn 7)
Carthage and Utica build cavalry > next
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros
Unload four more cavalry near Nidaros

1540 ad (turn 8)
Pollution strikes Theveste
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros. Elite knight defeats reg spear in Nidaros. Elite knight moves out to heal.
Upgrade knights and rifleman on home island

IBT: Persians and Greeks have signed a MA against the Vikings. Greeks declare on the Vikings

1545 ad (turn 9)
Carthage and Utica build cavalry > next
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros
Now at -21 gpt, set Utica and Carthage to wealth, +9 gpt

IBT: Vikings take Persian city of Bactra

1550 ad (turn 10)
Pollution strikes Carthage and Accipitridae
Clear pollution
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros

Post-turn: Well, no civ learned refining ahead of us so we were forced to research it ourselves. We are now only maintaining max research by building wealth in all of our cities. There is some gold out there now though if the next player wants to trade.

I took it slow against the Vikings letting our elite heal before attacking each time in hopes of getting a leader. There are currently about 4(?) spear and an archer in Nidaros.

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
tao
Demiurge (just played)

 

[tao]

Arggh: there is once again an open coastal tile next to our wool colonies: block it immediately!

I would ship some artillery to the Vikings as they greatly help to soften defense.

 

[Furiey]

OK got it, I'll probably play later today when I get back from work - I've stuck an Arty in the gap to block it so I don't forget.

 

[Furiey]

1550 AD (Turn 0): Block gap with Artillery; load Artillery in Galleon off our coast and head for the Vikings; 320gpt is available from India for Electronics, but nothing from Greece, our deals with both expire in 2 turns so decide to wait until then. Press button.

IBT: Persians bombard improvements round Nidaros; pollution strikes Leptis Magna.

1555 AD (Turn 1): Babylon deal has expired, sell them Atomic Theory for 37gpt and Maps; clean pollution; destroy Bactra (thought there was more in it than that); pick at the Spearmen; but don’t get one weakened enough to use the Elite Hoplite in attack – Cavs kill the spears too easily and we have no Elite Cavs, or we didn’t, one has just promoted (4/5), just the lone redlined Knight; unload Arty by Nidaros.

IBT: Keltoi and Persia sign a MPP; Greece demands electronics – I was going to use that in the coming round of trades – although I’m sure we can defend against them, we will lose several luxuries at a time when we are trying to finish the game – I pay up. ; Greeks drop Cavalry by Nidaros; lots of pollution strikes.

1560 AD (Turn 2): Complete Refining and start Combustion (in 6 once the pollution is cleared); we have oil by Theveste; bombard Nidaros; Greeks are going to destroy it next turn, so try the Elite Hoplite on a spear redlined by our bombarding – no good, the Hoplite dies; 4/5 Elite Cav (now 3/5) destroys Nidaros and the Pyramids; block Greek Cavalry from reaching last Viking city; move couple of Cavs to last Viking city – there’s a redlined Greek Cav already there - 3/5 Elite Cav also moves in; look at trades – Greece has traded Electronics around; Sell Spices, Wool, Ivory, Refining to India for 121 gpt, gold and maps (don’t want to clear them out and stop research); renegotiate the Greek luxury deals and throw in refining for 84gpt; get another 10gpt off Babylon for it, Xerxes has nothing to give;

IBT: Greeks bombard final Viking city and retreat their redlined Cavalry.

1565 AD (Turn 3): Pollution strikes Utica and is cleared; attack final Viking city - Elite 3/5 cav attacks 3/3 spear and wins; other Cavs fortify; unload Viking Workers back home.

IBT: Persians and Greeks bombard Vikings.

1570 AD (Turn 4): bombard the Vikings with Arty and our Elite Cav attacks, killing what turns out to be the only spearman defending – the Vikings are no more.

IBT: Greek ROP expires, they want radio to extend it.

1575 AD (Turn 5): Move Cannon and more Viking Workers back home.

IBT: Silk deal with Keltoi expires, throw in Communism to renew it; Keltoi Settler goes N into old Viking territory; Indian Settler goes S into our territory from their northern city.

1580 AD (Turn 6): block Indian Settler with Workers; otherwise Zzzzzz

IBT: 2 more Keltoi Settlers and an Indian one appear/land in ex Viking territory, Keltoi build 2 cities; Indian Settler in our territory returns to Jaipur.

1585 AD (Turn 7): Galleons return home and upgrade Cannon; move troops out of now Keltoi territory.

IBT: Indians Settle in ex Viking Territory; pollution strikes Leptis Magna;

1590 AD (Turn 8): Research Combustion, start Mass Production; clear pollution; upgrade Galleons to Transports.

IBT: Zzzzz.

1595 AD (Turn 9): ship back Arty in the last Galleon.

IBT: We lose our Furs and Horses; pollution strikes Accipitridae.

1600 AD (Turn 10): Clear pollution; unload Artillery; Transports reach Keltoi continent.

Treasury: 5757 gold, +127 gpt, Combustion in 4 (100%)

Post Turn: I have not renewed the deal for Furs and Horses (though I don’t suppose we need the Horses anymore anyway). From the Indians we could get Furs for 12 gpt, or from the Persians we could get Furs for Wool and 6 gpt. I leave this for the next player though as we are now Combustion and Radio ahead of the Greeks and Indians. No leader unfortunately, but who is going to provide the opportunity next? Babylon and Persia are the only Civs we’re not trading luxuries with, although we do have gpt deals with Babylon and could get Furs from Persia. Persia also has MPPs with Greece and Keltoi….

Accipitidae Culture: 128 per turn
Civ Assist 20k Prediction: 1745 (29 turns) and it looks like that's where it will stay.

Zwingli (up next)
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save

 

[tao]

We should keep our happiness as high as possible to increase score, i.e. get all available luxuries and (if possible and useful) spend some lux tax.

IMHO we should irrigate more mines and join more workers.

Note that we have 14 turns till drop dead date of completing SETI. And we need mass production (4), flight (7), computers (12?). Not a good perspective. IMHO if the AIs did not do flight by the time we learn mp, we can abandon all hope and increase pop and lux instead of going on with research.

 

[Furiey]

Those were just my thoughts. At the moment we are running 100% research to have any chance of finishing earlier. At 720 beakers per turn (100%) we can complete computers in 10 turns. It's still tight. The Fur deal needs renewing now. Once we know we can't make a difference we might as well drop research and go lux for max happy population.

edit: Combustion - ah yes - should have done that!

edit/add: we need 800 beakers per turn to get Flight down to 6 and and Computers down to 9. That's 80 more - we'd need more than a few scientists to do that!