SGOTM5 - Team jeffelammar

[grahamiam]

nice cks, another town for troop support. AA warfare can be slow. btw, what are we saving the leader for? load him up with swords or horses and lets us it to our advantage

i believe denyd is up and i am on deck.

 

[CKS]

We can't build an army with the leader until we have 4 cities.

 

[denyd]

G-Man, I won't be able to play until tomorrow night. If you've got the time, please take it and I'll jump in when you're done, otherwise I got it and will be playing on Friday night.

I agree with CKS, take Oslo then peace for a couple of cities. Having the people become instant Russians helps remove the flip risk and will save us some potential troop losses. They should also allow the GL to become a Sword Army (correct?).

I'm glad we started in this corner. These are 2 of the tougher UU's in this game (along with immortals). Getting rid of the Vikings also removes having to have quality garrisons in coastal cities (no amphib landings).

 

[grahamiam]

We can't build an army with the leader until we have 4 cities.

right! sorry, i'm an idiot sometimes

denyd: we'll see. 3grams is a grind right now.

 

[CKS]

We are short on swords, so we may want to build a couple more if we make a sword army. I don't really like the idea of having all our swords in one army.

 

[jeffelammar]

We are short on swords, so we may want to build a couple more if we make a sword army. I don't really like the idea of having all our swords in one army.

Given the number of swords availiable, I think we may want to make it a Horsemen army.

It would increase the survivability of our Horses as well as being more mobile.

The AI won't attack an horse army with warriors and archers the way it would a lone horse.

It would also allow us to keep our limited swords moving around.

 

[denyd]

It would probably be a good idea to get 5 or 6 warriors built in Moscow and sent over to be upgraded in China/Vikingland. Having 3 or 4 healthy swords when attacking a city if often the difference between winning this turn and not taking the city at all.

One other item of note: Soon, a couple of tribes are going to advance to the middle ages. That means two very important things.

1. We could soon be facing pikes (swords can take on pike, but horses often become shish-ka-ponies)
2. When the 2nd tribe goes middle ages, any barbarian villages are going to have a bad pony uprising. We could be facing 40-60 barbarian horsemen on our home island.

 

[grahamiam]

One other item of note: Soon, a couple of tribes are going to advance to the middle ages. That means two very important things.

1. We could soon be facing pikes (swords can take on pike, but horses often become shish-ka-ponies)
2. When the 2nd tribe goes middle ages, any barbarian villages are going to have a bad pony uprising. We could be facing 40-60 barbarian horsemen on our home island.

only if they have iron. have we seen any ai's road yet? barbs are just annoying, but nothing more.

 

[CKS]

It would probably be a good idea to get 5 or 6 warriors built in Moscow and sent over to be upgraded in China/Vikingland. Having 3 or 4 healthy swords when attacking a city if often the difference between winning this turn and not taking the city at all.

One other item of note: Soon, a couple of tribes are going to advance to the middle ages. That means two very important things.

1. We could soon be facing pikes (swords can take on pike, but horses often become shish-ka-ponies)
2. When the 2nd tribe goes middle ages, any barbarian villages are going to have a bad pony uprising. We could be facing 40-60 barbarian horsemen on our home island.

Building warriors in Moscow and upgrading in China/Vikingland won't work until we have a barracks and iron connection there. This isn't going to happen until we are a monarchy and can cash rush things - pop rushing won't help because we don't have any people to spare yet. Plus, I think that we need the harbor connection to get luxuries to Moscow, so disconnecting Moscow's iron won't work. If we take a city with a barracks, we should start cranking out warriors there, though it won't be speedy. When we get iron connected (either locally or by harbor) we can upgrade them.

1. As grahamiam said, the AI has been bad about building roads, so iron connection may be an issue for them. It doesn't help that we bought many workers, but they haven't used the ones we didn't buy.

2. I suspect there are several barb villages around. We might leave the next couple of horses built to scout around Moscow in hopes of finding and destroying them.

 

[RowAndLive]

lurker's comment:
Just a thought on those unused extra workers. Maybe they were created as eqWorkers, and the AI doesn't know how to use them? I haven't used the mod software before, so I am ignorant of how it works, but it is a thought. Or perhaps there's something in the unit creation that they get assigned numbers upon build, and can't use them because they have no pointers. This gets fixed when they are sold (different set of code). If they were then sold back, they might use them just fine.
[lurk]

 

[CKS]

lurker's comment:
Just a thought on those unused extra workers. Maybe they were created as eqWorkers, and the AI doesn't know how to use them? I haven't used the mod software before, so I am ignorant of how it works, but it is a thought. Or perhaps there's something in the unit creation that they get assigned numbers upon build, and can't use them because they have no pointers. This gets fixed when they are sold (different set of code). If they were then sold back, they might use them just fine.
[lurk]

lurker's comment:

This is an interesting thought. We could try trading workers for workers to see if they'd move out of their cities (as long as they'd trade straight across). Or we could just build our own roads and save up to get the last 6 workers.

 

[jeffelammar]

lurker's comment:
Just a thought on those unused extra workers. Maybe they were created as eqWorkers, and the AI doesn't know how to use them? I haven't used the mod software before, so I am ignorant of how it works, but it is a thought. Or perhaps there's something in the unit creation that they get assigned numbers upon build, and can't use them because they have no pointers. This gets fixed when they are sold (different set of code). If they were then sold back, they might use them just fine.
[lurk]

lurker's comment:
In the first turns after 1000AD several roads appeared in AI lands, so I think they were using the workers fine. It just looks like something triggered a mass retreat back into cities. Since all the workers were close to their capitols, they just went there. (Lucky for us)

This is an interesting thought. We could try trading workers for workers to see if they'd move out of their cities (as long as they'd trade straight across). Or we could just build our own roads and save up to get the last 6 workers.

I like the second option. No mercy to the AI.

As a note, I was unaware that you needed cities on the same landmass to trade workers. It certainly explains why we could buy from the Long Island nations but not the short island (is that like the short bus?)

 

[grahamiam]

Preflight check: Let the Cantonese worker work the field. Everything else looks fine. Army consists of 1 archer, 1 spear, 3 swords, 6 horses, 5 galleys, 1 leader.

IBT: Arabia demands TM and 35g. I cave as I don’t need the BS.
Moscow horse -> horse

T1: 330BC Vet sword dies against spear in Oslo (2/4). Horses move out of Canton towards Oslo. Workers move to help chop harbor.
Trade WM around for 164g. Buy currency from India for WM and 188g

IBT: India starts Pyramids and finishes Oracle

T2: 310BC Position 4 horses near Oslo, drop off another. Move elite sword S past Nidaros.

IBT: sword defends against Viking warrior; China moves a warrior and archer toward Canton
Moscow horse -> horse
America, Japs, Mongols, building pyramids. Spanish, Arabs, Japs, Zulu and Iro building GLib

T3: 290BC Battle for Oslo: horse dies to spear flawlessly (4/4); horse retreats from spear without scratching it (5/5); horse kills spear and we take the town (2/4). Vikings will talk peace but will only give up Stockholm, a lousy jungle town.
Horse kills Chinese warrior.
Build the Army. I fill it with a horseman cause that’s all we have.

IBT: Horse retreats from Chinese archer; Nidaros riots.

T4: 270BC Move troops to take Bjoergvin. Make about 40g trading WM around.

Moscow horse -> horse

T5: 250BC Capture a Chinese warrior/settler pair, netting us a couple more workers.

T6: 230BC Moving into position for next Chinese town.

IBT: Chop for Harbor in Nidaros finishes; Moscow horse -> horse; English establish an embassy.

T7: 210BC ditto

Iro. Demand TM and 41g. tell them to go pound sand and they declare

T8: 190BC Elite swordsman redlines killing a reg Viking archer near Bjoergivin (I’m waiting for the expansion of borders)

IBT: Horseman flawlessly defends against reg archer; Moscow horse -> horse

T9: 170BC Horseman kills a pesky barb warrior near Moscow (3/4); Kill a Chinese spear/settler pair outside of Beijing, netting 2 more workers and promoting the horse to elite (5/5). Move 6 horseman in range of Beijing.

IBT: Spain demands poly. Tell her to stuff it, she does (no war)

T10: 150BC Somebody went medevil because we get the massive barb uprising near Moscow message. I can see 8 horseman. We have 5 barb camps on our island.

Battle for Beijing: vet horse retreats from reg spear (2/3);vet horse redlines reg spear but dies; vet horse retreats from reg spear (2/3); vet horse kills reg spear; vet horse retreats from reg spear; elite horse retreats from reg spear
Horse Army kills to Viking warriors, promotes.

Horse Army and 2 swords are hanging out near Bjoergivin, waiting for expansion. Once Bjoergivin is taken, we need to get that horse army over to the chinese side of the war.
I cannot disconnect the iron because you cannot destroy/pillage your own colony.

pRNG is not playing fair 4 workers are in range of ducking into a boat next turn. Another worker is on a mountain so you can see the barb camp and the # of barbs.

4 civ’s have construction so we may be able to buy it and enter the MA. India will sell it for around 300g and WM.

 

[denyd]

Ok I got it and will start tonight (might need until tomorrow to finish)

After taking Bjoergivin, we need to decide whether it's better to sign peace for a city or keep attacking Vikings? They will only have 3 cities left at than point. I'm vote for peace to get a city (or 2) and moving on to China. It looks like Bejing might be ready to fall next turn. I'm for taking a couple of Chinese cities and then getting a couple more for peace and moving on to the Zulu's.

With 100 barbarian horsemen roaming the home island, as I see it we have 3 choices on how to deal with them.
1. Hunt them down: Sending out the next 4-6 horsemen to hunt the BH down.
Downside: no reinforcements for the other island for the next 10 turns and potential losses of these units. Upside: Probably will gain 4+ Elite horses for transport.
2. Wait for them to come to us: Build swordsmen in Moscow. Defend the city until the BH are exhausted. Upside: Being able to send 3-4 Elite Swords to across the ocean. Downside: Open to pillaging of Moscow improvements & potential loss of units defending Moscow and no reinforcements for offense against China.
3. Evacuate Moscow: Pull all units out and spend most of the cash. Upside: No losses and support continues for Chinese offensive. Downside: Potential loss of all Moscow city & terrain improvements & no unit promotions.

I'll be starting in about 10 hours and will check in before I begin.

 

[grahamiam]

@denyd: there's about 40 barbhorseman on the island. i wouldn't pay attention to them unless they threaten our road.

re: beijing: i hosed the attack and you only have 1 or 2 healthy horses there. retreat and heal is recommended. after taking bjorkwhatever, i definitely agree with going for peace. try to get the town just N of bjork so we have a monopoly on the iron and gems there. i would even consider razing it just so we can get peace sooner with the vikings as it would be great if the horse army could help with the chinese push but shoring up our rear should be a priority.

If you buy construction, we will get an MA tech for free, hopefully it's fuedalism. upgrade the spear to a pike and build 1 or 2 more to absorb barb horseman. if the barbs start threatening to pillage, then use a built horse to take them out. otherwise, don't waste time chasing them. lets get all troops over to the mainland for conquest.

 

[jeffelammar]

After taking Bjoergivin, we need to decide whether it's better to sign peace for a city or keep attacking Vikings? They will only have 3 cities left at than point. I'm vote for peace to get a city (or 2) and moving on to China. It looks like Bejing might be ready to fall next turn. I'm for taking a couple of Chinese cities and then getting a couple more for peace and moving on to the Zulu's.

I agree with signing peace with the Vikings after taking Bjoergivin.
I would attack China till they run out of 2 pop cities, then peace. Tackling the Zulu next sounds right.

With 100 barbarian horsemen roaming the home island, as I see it we have 3 choices on how to deal with them.

I agree with grahamiam on this. subject. Defend and use a couple horses to keep them off our improvements, but don't defend the colony, they may be nice enough to get rid of it for us. Keep the combat in our cultural zone so we have movement advantage for retreating the horses back to Moscow so we don't lose them. Once we have a couple knights we can send one or two out to take care of the barbarian issue.

One thing I think we need to do ASAP is get a start on a Forbidden Palace. I know that we would rather have it farther east, but I think we might want to get one started in Bejing. As far as I can tell, there is no way to rush the FP, so we need to start accumulating shields on it soon. I know we can't build it yet, but if we get Bejing working on it now and then grow that city, we should be able to get to 5 or 6 spt on it. I think sooner is better than picking the ideal spot.

 

[grahamiam]

I agree with signing peace with the Vikings after taking Bjoergivin.
I would attack China till they run out of 2 pop cities, then peace. Tackling the Zulu next sounds right.

let me be clear, we absolutely need to take or raze the town N of Bjoergivin. if we can get it in peace, fine, but we must have that space clear or under our control. It controls the local path to the iron.

edit: and i'm fine with starting the FP soon. it'll only take 200 turns or so if you want, rush a courthouse there after a chop before building the FP in Beijing. it may help get us up to 2 or 3spt when we get up to a bigger size.

I know we can't build it yet, but if we get Bejing working on it now and then grow that city, we should be able to get to 5 or 6 spt on it. I think sooner is better than picking the ideal spot.

the rank corruption bug will help us greatly can't wait. 5 or 6spt? that would be great, and unless MB monkeyed with the cost, it should be 200shields

 

[CKS]

Barbarians: Attack them within our cultural boundaries and along our path to the boats, but don't chase after them outside of this. If we can promote our horses as they move to the boats, so much the better.

Units: I'd like to see us build a few new swords soon. If we get a leader soon, I'd like an army of swords or MI to give us some offensive power while we wait for knights. If we don't get a leader soon, we still need some swords as the horse vs. fortified spear situation isn't good.

War: The war plans sound good. The wait-for-the-city-to-expand plan is a pain, so if we can pick up their size 1 cities in peace deals, we are a lot better off. If we don't take the northern city (if we raze it), we'll need to build some culture to get the iron and gems in our borders.

Research: I'm for buying construction soon. Then head for chivalry, as we don't want to deal with horses until we can get cavalry.

FP: I haven't looked at corruption closely, but I think we might be better off with a courthouse in Beijing before the FP. A few turns of building and a cash rush after we switch to monarchy could get us a courthouse relatively cheaply and let us knock a hundred turns or so off our FP completion time. The problem with Beijing is that it is large, so we'll have to be careful about flips until the Chinese are eliminated. The good things are its size and relative closeness to Moscow, as they increase our potential shield output.

 

[jeffelammar]

War: The war plans sound good. The wait-for-the-city-to-expand plan is a pain, so if we can pick up their size 1 cities in peace deals, we are a lot better off. If we don't take the northern city (if we raze it), we'll need to build some culture to get the iron and gems in our borders.

I'm against razing ANY cities. We can't build to fill in, so we should avoid leaving any unsettled territory. The only way for us to fill it in is to wait for an AI to settle. This is problematic because the AI often won't settle next to your borders, so they may never fill in the holes for us.

FP: I haven't looked at corruption closely, but I think we might be better off with a courthouse in Beijing before the FP. A few turns of building and a cash rush after we switch to monarchy could get us a courthouse relatively cheaply and let us knock a hundred turns or so off our FP completion time. The problem with Beijing is that it is large, so we'll have to be careful about flips until the Chinese are eliminated. The good things are its size and relative closeness to Moscow, as they increase our potential shield output.

I agree that we should consider a Courthouse before going FP, but only if we rush it. (We might even pop rush it to reduce the number of Chinese citizens, but we may be better of just keeping the population there.)

As for a leader, I think we should consider what we need most. I would argue that our biggest need is better production on the long island. The only way I see to do that is courthouses and the FP. Since the FP can't be rushed, I would suggest that we consider using any leader to rush either a Courthouse or a Colleseum in Bejing. Either of these helps us towards building the FP there.

I would argue that we don't really need another Army, but that anything that accelerates a FP down here is absolutely in our interest.

 

[denyd]

Actually Great Leaders can be disbanded for 250 shields, so we might consider using one (if we get one) to help Bejing with the FP.

I think it might be a good idea to pop-rush a court in Bejing before starting the FP.