SGOTM5 - Team MOTH

[TimBentley]

No. I have read there is a 30% chance of hurting the units (as opposed to improvements or citizens) (apparently that changed in Conquests), so I believe artillery would have a 14.94% chance of doing 1hp of damage, and a 6.63% chance of doing 2hp of damage. There should be a 18.7% chance that 5 artillery (or less) would bombard a veteran infantry to 1hp. 5 artillery should have a 42% chance to bombard it to 2hp.

 

[Chamnix]

Pre-turn:

Move some units toward the ships. Micromanage some. Rush several artillery.

The Zulu have 70gpt available but will only give 48gpt for electronics, so I figure it’s time to sell before they finish. Get 649g + 253gpt from the Iroquois. Get 8 + 88gpt + Dyes from Japan. Get 99g + 5gpt from the Zulu.

Change a couple builds on our home island to factory to take advantage of Hoovers.

Iroquois cancel our deal – we gave them silk for 33gpt.

Turn 1 (1792) – Load ships, move toward Arabia. Auction off our silks to the highest bidder (Iroquois at 32 gpt).

IBT – nothing of note

Turn 2 (1794) – Build an embassy in Arabia. Mecca is guarded by 6 infantry (3 regular, 3 vet.) 28spt, palace, barracks, temple, market, library, bank, cathedral, university, colloseum, JS Bachs, hospital, battlefield medicine. 6 luxuries total – 2 furs, 1 each of wine, dyes, incense, spices, and silks, 2 rubber, 2 oil, 1 coal, 3 salt, 3 iron, 2 horses, 40% research, 60% tax, factory in 1.



Decide to declare on China – we have no per turn deals, and we have the added bonus that we can take Thebes and a settler pair wandering across our territory. I tell them to remove their forces or declare, they declare so we get a little bonus.

We sign an RoP and MA against China with Arabia – we have to throw in 1 of our 2 excess furs, but they will throw in 1 gpt.

We take out the Chinese cav defending the settler – 2 more slaves for us.
We capture Thebes without loss.
Our first troops are unloaded in Arabia.

IBT – nothing

Turn 3 (1796) – more troops to Arabia.

IBT – a lone Chinese Frigate bombs our mainland.

Turn 4 (1798) – more troops to Arabia.

IBT – Chinese Frigate bombs again.

Turn 5 (1800) – More troops to Arabia. Turn science to 60% - mass production still in 2.

IBT – The Chinese want to talk. We are not ready to betray Arabia yet, so no.

Turn 6 (1802) – I send a Cossack on a tour of Arabia. Muscat has a musket (hmm…) as its top defender but has no strategic value. Chartres also has a musket and it has got oil. Marseilles has a rifleman. Everywhere else (I think) has infantry. Science to 50% - mass production next.

IBT – We discover mass production (first), start motorized transport – 8 turns @100%.

Turn 7 (1804) – The last available troops reach Arabia. We are ready for war.

I am going to pause here because I think our next move is critical – we will only get one chance to do maximum damage to Arabia. I’m thinking Chartres is a must since it has oil, is defended by muskets, and has no culture.

By my count, we have 2 armies, 31 artillery, 21 cossacks, 9 infantry, and 1 guerilla in Arabia to position as we wish.

IBT – Celts and Arabia sign MPP – crap. The Celts are currently giving us spices and wool for nothing for 8 turns – we can potentially take both from Arabian lands.

Turn 8 (1806) – Decide to investigate a couple cities to see if war is still worthwhile. Investigate Chartres – defended by a veteran musket and a regular spear, no improvements. Investigate Medina – 3 infantry (2 vets, 1 reg) and a vet cavalry.

Investigate Fustat – 2 vet infantry, cav in 1.

Check Grenoble – 1 reg inf, 1 reg musket.

I think trying 2 cities with “real” defense is 2 risky – if we are only going for 1, it might as well be Mecca.

Position the forces as I think best, and tell Abu Bakr we are at war. Before I actually attack, I dial up Brennus – I can’t talk him into an alliance against the Arabs. I thought I’d try. The Iroquois join us for 31gpt. We sign peace with China – they give us Chengdu which is useless, but better useless for us than them.

Now the attacks begin – we capture Chartres without loss. We lose 2 cossacks, but successfully take Marseilles. We knock Mecca to size 3 with artillery and destroy many buildings, but don’t do enough harm to the infantry – I decide not to attack this turn. Units get fortified on a hill with the artillery. Our people are not as happy as they were, but no riots coming, so I leave lux at 0%. Wait for the counterattack…

IBT – Celts declared on the Chinese. Celts declare on the Iroquois. Arabs retake Marseilles – I had left most troops outside due to flip risk.

Turn 9 (1808) – Chartres has almost a 5% flip risk. We sink an Arabia ironclad. After much bombardment, Mecca is a city of 1 guarded by redlined infantry. It cost us more Cossacks than I would have liked, but Mecca is razed.

IBT – Arabs fail to retake Chartres even with its minimal defense – they all sent 1 cav so they must not have any troops to spare.

Turn 10 (1810) – The artillery stack works over Fustat. We gain a leader, but it will take some time to escort him to an army- building location. We raze Fustat.

I think the strategy for now is to slow play - move the artillery stack from city to city, minimize casualties. I can't tell you how many cossacks I lost even attacking redlined infantry in towns. We are only 5 turns from tanks so we can plan on doing real damage then.



http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1810_01.SAV

 

[MOTH]

I've got it and will hopefully play tonight.

What is the teams opinion on a palace jump sometime in the next 20 turns? It would greatly reduce the flip risks and could give us the benifit of reduced corruption until we get the new core running. We would have to find a high food area to join in a bunch of workers and we would have to station a lot of military there to get the jump to work.

During my turns, I will see if I can cut off Arabia's sources of Oil and Rubber. If possible I will see if I can cut a road network that could cut off the remaining oil in the world. As soon as we research Tanks, I will cut research to about a 20 turns towards Marines to save money for rushing tanks in corrupt cities that have barracks.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I haven't had much experience in palace jumps, so really can't say. Big bonus if we can corner the world's oil supply.

 

[Chamnix]

What is the teams opinion on a palace jump sometime in the next 20 turns? It would greatly reduce the flip risks and could give us the benifit of reduced corruption until we get the new core running. We would have to find a high food area to join in a bunch of workers and we would have to station a lot of military there to get the jump to work.

I've never done a palace jump either so I'm not sure... Reduced flip risk would be nice, but Arabia's culture is a lot higher than ours so we will have to live with some risk anyway. Do we intend to keep enough Arab cities to qualify as a second core?

During my turns, I will see if I can cut off Arabia's sources of Oil and Rubber.

If I recall correctly, they have 3 sources of rubber - one on the island west of their mainland (can be bombarded by ship if necessary), one on their northern shore, and one directly underneath one of their cities on the west coast. It will certainly be difficult to cut all 3 within 10 turns, but if you think it is possible, then it would certainly be nice not to have any new infantry to deal with.

I don't think the Arabs had even finished combustion by the end of my turns, so we should be able to do severe damage to their cities before their oil is very useful to them.

As soon as we research Tanks, I will cut research to about a 20 turns towards Marines to save money for rushing tanks in corrupt cities that have barracks.

I was thinking the same thing - I would even consider a 40-turn run with 1 scientist. I doubt we will run out of places to attack with tanks in 40 turns so the more tanks the better. The question is do we want flight, or will amphibious war be the last thing we research this game? If we get enough tanks quickly enough to control the oil then nobody else will have planes, and there is no lethal bombard.

 

[MOTH]

I have never done a palace jump. I really only know the basics: pts for population, pointsfor nearby cities, and points for military units in the city. Usually Tim comes along at a time like this with accurate info on the mechanics.

As for reseach, I was mainly thinking about 20 turns so that we could turn research back up without a waste. the min science route would be wasted turns...

I'm going to start now if the baby decides to nap...

 

[TimBentley]

I have never done a palace jump. I really only know the basics: pts for population, pointsfor nearby cities, and points for military units in the city. Usually Tim comes along at a time like this with accurate info on the mechanics.

3 points for national citizens, 1 point for foreign citizen, 1 point for neighboring town, 2 points for neighboring city, 3 points for neighboring metropolis (neighboring meaning within 17x17 square), 1 point for military unit.
I'm not sure it would be worth it to abandon Moskva, however (although all wonders are basically obsolete, aren't they?).

 

[MOTH]

pre-flight: some MM and switch most specialists from Tax to Science and we get Motor Trans in 4 instead of 5 (with 12 taxmen left).

IBT - England and Arabia sign a trade embargo against us. Arabia bombards our shores 2x to no effect. They lose a cav to us and we lose one to them.

1812(1) - Trading: Clean out Egypt. Japan won't touch a MA vs Arabia, but will go for a MPP/ROP and paying us 47GPT. This will get them in the war but might get us to war with the Vikings - I take it. I get England in the War with Medicine. China and the Mongols come into the war as well. Zulus are the only ones sitting it out.

IBT - We are at war with the Vikings. Japan declared war on the Celts and Arabia and took out one of the ironclads that was bombarding us. Damn - Japan attacked the Iroqouis and we are not at war and lost our wine and oil. I must of missed that they were at with the Iroqs. What a mess of wars now. We lost a Cav.

1814(2) - Move units mainly. Kill a Iroq Cav and MI on our continent.

IBT - Kill a Arab Cav.

1816(3) - Capture Aydab on our Silk island. Bombard 1 of Arabia's 2 Oil. Move an Army in that General Direction.

IBT - Arabia and China declare peace. we lose 2 cavs and Arabs 1. Motorized Transportation comes in and I work on Amphib War in 40 on min run. A lot of our GPT deals run out.

1818(4) - Remanage cities and start a policy of Drafting in the 95% corrupt cities. Capture Ise from Iroq. Kill an Arab Cav

IBT - An Arab Cav dies. New Delhi riots and I check happiness.

1820(5) - Land some units on the mountain island. Move some units. Bombard Iroq Oil. Worker to connect our oil.

IBT - Arabia declares on China. Iroqs try yo plant a spy. Arabs capture city on Mountain island from Iroq Infantry - we'll get it next turn.

1822(6) - Capture Ganogeh from Arabia. Cut off Arabia's Rubber and Oil. next turn cut the oil they are trading to someone. Leader is now in Chartres waiting for Tanks.

IBT - France is at war with us now. Egypt declares on us. Arabia captures an Oil town from Iroqs. One more to disconnect.

1824(7) Cut Arab Oil. Zulu have Radio.

IBT - Not much - observing the Arabs kicking Iroqs.

1826(8) - Capture Kufah from Arabia. Setup Washington to build Library in 1 so I can next through cities and build tanks. Move units.

IBT - Arabs recaptures Kufah losing 5 Cavs but killing our Army. Egypt brings Zulu into the war against Arabia. We build many tanks.

1828(9) - Disconnect Arabs last (traded) Oil. 3 Tanks try to take the Iroq city on the Indian continent and leave a red-lined infantry. Cav takes York from the Vikings. Tank and 2 Cavs in an Army head for a city near Chartres. Short Rush a Tank in Moscow with the last of our cash.

IBT - China is destroyed by the Arabs. York riots when protests stop.

1830(1) - Capture Kihioro on Indian Continent. Leave with lots of movement remaining as I've got to go shopping.

I'll comment more later....

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1830_01.SAV

Firaxis score: 1098
Jason score: 719

 

[MOTH]

My thoughts:
our arty stack has been working its way home. Perhaps the armour can meet up with it

We have some transports in various locations that can be used to bring in some of the troops in the western mountain rings and/or the main continents. One loaded with the first 6 tanks is near the Celt's land where we just took York.

Regarding the oil state, I think we are 1 turn from cutting off all the effective oil in the world. There will still be 2 connected in the north, but I don't think they have a route to the Iroq homelands.

We should probably trade Mass Production soon.

 

[Bede]

Got it. Play tomorow.

 

[Bede]

1840

Played five before power went down.

1830
Locate our far flung troops. Looks like the Arab offensive is running out of gas, so begin a consoidation move towards Chartres.

Which fails. Over the course of ten years Chartres changes hands three times and finally the two armies are destroyed and the town is back in Arab hands.

To prevent rioting at home I have to keep buying luxes from Japan and Zulu and anybody with anything to spare and eventually have to give up Mass Production to get the money and luxes we need.

Kufah is destroyed just becasue the troops are there and the artilery and infantry begin a march towards Baghdad hoping to meet tanks and infantry coming in from the west.

There are tanks and transports on the little island to the east of the home island and we can finush the Arab presence there next. Load the tansk back on the trasnports and head for the west coast of Arabia.

I finished off the treasury rushing tanks on the Indian sub-continent. Pick them up in Elephantine and head for Gandestaigon, the Iro oil town on the big continent. May be we can take and hold that one while the tanks make their way across Arabia. Took the little Egyptian town on the island, drop off an infantry garrison when the transport leaves for the Iro oil town.

Tightened the hold on the Celtic end of the continent by taking London.

And in a final gesture take a straigth up peace deal from the Vikings as I see no reason to be at war with them any longer.

I am still perplexed as to how we are going to get to the victory condition. There are 129 cities and towns left to conquer (this includes the one tile English, French and Egyptian capitols) We have 142 fighting troops but they are spread all over the place. We are going to need flight to hold down casualties as well as Marines to finish off the one tilers but without oil we can't build the tanks and airplanes needed for fortified infantry in cities....There are 284 turns to go.....

 

[M60A3TTS]

Got it. Should be able to play tomorrow.

 

[Chamnix]

I am still perplexed as to how we are going to get to the victory condition. There are 129 cities and towns left to conquer (this includes the one tile English, French and Egyptian capitols) We have 142 fighting troops but they are spread all over the place. We are going to need flight to hold down casualties as well as Marines to finish off the one tilers but without oil we can't build the tanks and airplanes needed for fortified infantry in cities....There are 284 turns to go.....

I can't check the save now, but I think you have the answer right here - oil is the key, and we need to focus our troops. All the oil is in Arabia and Iroquois. As soon as our MPP with Japan ends, we need to get out of that (should be 6-7 more turns). Make peace with everyone except either Iroquois or Arabia (whichever seems more vulnerable). Keep Iroquois and Arabia at war with each other. Mass our troops and take and hold oil towns - one at a time. Destroy the rest. Once we do enough damage to either Arabia or Iroquois effectively to destroy their productive capability, do the same to the other.

If we get out of other wars and focus all our energy on the northeastern corner of the map (where the oil is!), we should be able to conquer that territory. If we have oil and nobody else does, we will be able to move quickly in more directions later, but we need focus now.

 

[M60A3TTS]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1860_01.SAV

Looked at the save. The oil monopoly strategy will simply not work, plain and simple. Too much ground to cover right now. We should be happy to get our artillery out alive, as our troops in the area are almost gone. The war against the Arabs should simply end, as there can be no further success given our forces in this area. We can get Mosul at the peace table. The oil source at Gandastagion must be our main focus at the moment.

The 1-tile islands and a couple of these worthless barren islands mean nothing as we get close to the end. At that point, it’s nothing but a mop-up operation. So marines are necessary, but not too many now.


Log not standard here, as the formatting has a mind of it’s own tonight.

Pre-turn: End the war with the Arabs for Mosul and Shiraz.

Start moving tanks aboard transports to head towards Gandastagion.

Zulu active on the Celtic front. Egypt wants to talk- no.

Iro and Mongols sign MPP. Celts and England sign peace. England wants to talk- No. Mongols declare on Japan. Mongols then declare on us.

Celts and England do embargo.

Our tanks take Gandastagion.

Celts destroy Mongols, so much for their alliance against us. Resistance ends in Gandastagion.

Spend 316g to rush harbor at Gandastagion. Intelligence Agency comes in.

Iroquois and Arabs sign peace. Egypt and Arabs sign peace. Harbor in Gandastagion complete, oil back on line.

Get the follow up force that was at Mosul to within a couple tiles of Shiraz..

Tyendanaga falls to our tanks. Rush temple in Gandastagion. Follow up force moves into Shiraz and runs by rail to Tyendanaga.

Trading Time: 134g and MT to Zulu for Amphibious war. MT and Amphib to Japan for Radio and 201g. Science to 100%, flight in 9.

Plant spy in Seville, Spain. They can be crushed as soon as the RoP ends, as all they have are a few rifles and LBs.

Merde! Iro infantry captures and kills workers I left unprotected by the second oil at Gandastagion. Well they were all foreign labor at least.

In 1860, pass a transport by the Egyptian capital, 1-tile island, spear defending. Just need another marine or two, and they’re cooked. One loaded already in Hyderabad. Try to plant a spy with Arabs and we fail, Arabs declare on us. How rude! OK, we lose two tanks and take Khanawake, Dijon, Caughnawaga, Avignon, and Bukhara from them. Assorted defenders from a pike, infantry, and cav. Two in each town. Our SoD (tank, 7 inf, 23 arty) which has been sitting quietly in neutral ground moves out to 3 tiles from Anjar. Link them up with the tanks and we can have some fun. Flight in 6 when we’ll head off to the Modern age, and done with score 1244.

Post turn. Probably time to call an end to the Iroquois war and focus on Abu. Did next to nothing by London and York. Don’t even see a reason to be there, quite honestly.

 

[TimBentley]

Got it. I'll play tomorrow.

 

[Chamnix]

I just looked at the save for a couple minutes this morning…

I don’t think there is any reason for us to be at war with France or the Celts, and both will pay for peace. We definitely do not want to be at war with both Arabia and Iroquois, and ideally they should be at war with each other. I agree we should sign peace with the Iroquois, and we should also try to get an MA with Iroquois against Arabs.

If we take the last Egyptian city, we need to place a unit on the 1-tile island next to them until our culture expands to cover it.

I’m not sure we need to rush to flight. The Arabs only have a couple large cities, and we still have an artillery stack wandering around their territory to cut them down to size. I think we may be better off with slower research and more money to rush ground troops.

If we do choose to continue with fast research, we need to start a UN prebuild at some point so nobody else can hold a vote – with all the wars it would be difficult to imagine anyone winning a vote, but I’d rather not take the chance.

If we are only in one war and devote all our troops to it, we have enough to smash Arabia. Even just moving some more infantry over to free our tanks from city-guarding duty will speed the process a lot. The tanks can attack any available towns first, while the artillery stack works its way around to the cities and metros and knocks them down to towns.

Edit: I also think it may be time to mobilize - we can end mobilization anytime by destroying or agreeing to peace with Egypt.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I’m not sure we need to rush to flight.

I believe we should, because of the airlift capability it provides. Granted the bombers aren't urgently needed, but the need to speed delivery time of the new units to the Arab front is. Transports take too long, and the fight for the world will be decided on this land mass. After flight, we pick up computers if we're lucky. Then it's mech infantry time. We can go 1 scientist from then on if we want.

 

[MOTH]

Tim,
have you had a chance to play or should we skip to the next person?

 

[TimBentley]

I've played some, but I haven't completed many turns. I'll see how much I can play tonight. I might just post what I've played.

 

[TimBentley]

1860(0)-make minor changes
Mobilization will wait for market in Ese at least
get WM, 6g from France for peace
get Kazan, WM, 3g from Celts for peace
spend 180g, plant spy in Iroquois, fail in Arabia
Iroquois have 39 infantry, some ships, and a leader
get Allegheny, 90g from Iroquois for peace
No way to get MA against Arabia (with peace treaty or alone)
We're sorry for what we did to England, honest!
Start some stock exchanges so we can have Wall Street

IBT-frigate killed by Arab ironclad
Arabia captures Allegheny
Spain, Egypt sign embargo against us

1862(1)-zzz

IBT-Spain, Celts sign peace
Scandinavia, Egypt sign embargo against us

1864(2)-Marine kills spear in Asyut

IBT-embargo between Spain and Iroquois ends

1866(3)-Every artillery bombards Anjar, but conscript inf still left
lose one inf, promote one inf, capture Anjar
Marine kills spear in Asyut, captures city
embargoes from Spain and Scandinavia with Egypt end

IBT-Zulu are invading Arabia
Iroquois, Arabia sign embargo against us

1868(4)-4 people know flight
Buy flight from Iroquois for 10g
We learn ecology
Start on computers; slow research so airports can be rushed
Fail to bombard oil near Yamama
Take out some Arabian invaders
Capture Oka

IBT-Iroquois, Japan sign peace

1870(5)-lux deal with Japan ran out, buy wines, dyes for furs, silks, 86gpt (selling them ecology would be a large discount)
Capture Fez, Chartres, Rouen
Bombard one of Yamama's oil

IBT-renew peace treaty with Zulu

1872(6)-we have our own wool, buy gems from Zulu for silks, 35gpt (for WLTKD)
Capture Muscat, Yamama
Rush airport in Gandasetaigon

IBT-Embargo between England, France ends

1874(7)-Capture Baghdad, raze Orleans
Cancel ROP with Spain, declare war
Capture Seville
Rush airport in St. Louis

IBT-England drops off spearman, warrior by Aydab

1876(8)-Tell England to leave, kill their units
Lose cossack attacking spear in Zaragoza

IBT-Iroquois, Spain sign embargo
Celts, Iroquois sign peace

1878(9)-Get a GL attacking Medina, lose a cossack trying to kill redline inf
Capture Casa del Bamrapido, Vitoria

IBT-Arabia, Zululand sign peace
Zululand, Vikings sign MPP
Iroquois, England sign trade embargo

1880(10)-capture Medina, Aden, Basra
We now have 8 luxes
Raze Ciudad de la Luna

Notes: Arabia is fading quickly; Spain is pathetic; a marine is on its way to destroy England
Zululand seems to be the most powerful AI, but they lack oil

Here is the save.