SGOTM6 - Team Bede

[Tubby Rower]

I agree with the library idea. I think that the ship movement bug was fixed. I haven't looked at the save in quite a while so I can't comment on any of the wonder builds.

I think that the Chinese & Mongolian cities should be left alone for right now until the Japanese are diminished a little. How soon is map-making coming in? We should also start some settler builds before the Japan war to fill in some of the autorazing that's going to happen in Japan. I think that we should target the pop >2 cities first but the AI might not be as selective.

 

[Pied Piper]

Took a look at the number of pages each team has posted. Noticed that the staff team is a little slow out of the starting gate. We seem to be doing slightly less than average and with more turns done. Could it be that other teams are having a difficult time reaching consensus? Or do they just have more brilliant strategies to discuss? So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?

 

[Tubby Rower]

So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?

I'm happy with our progress. I think it is mainly due to the divine nature of our leader

M-B said something in the maintenance thread about the barbarians, let me see if I can find it.... Ah here it is
This was in response to team Offa's Klarius that was curious about the lack of barbarian activity....

I can't respond to the Barbarian question adequately now. If you still think that this is a problem then we can discuss it in the first spoiler. Inspection of various saves have not quickened my pulse any, wheras the water movement cost bug certainly did!

 

[Minute Man]

Got it. Will probably play this evening.

What does everybody else think about Bede's idea of starting a war with Japan ASAP? It does seem to me that if we're planning on fighting them soon, now might be a good time to start the dogpile, since they can't reach us yet. Then we can either build some boats (once MM comes in) and invade, or just let the AI bash each other for a while.

So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?

The exploring warriors saw barbarians both to the north and west during my first set of turns. There was also that barb camp near Alesia. So there definitely are at least some around. Maybe the AI is taking care of them for us?

 

[mabellino]

I agree with the early war in principle but have noticed I'm due to play soon. I have no probs fighting a defensive war (as that is what I usually do!) but am pretty weak on offensive combat. If the war turns ugly then I may need more time to play my turns so I can check with you guys before making any lame decisions.

OK little panic over! As for other teams post counts, I read the X-team threads last time (non-player!) and they have a constructive style interspersed with a bit of non-game issues. So far so good. One other team that shall remain nameless (but let's just say I was part of it) had MANY posts from the "leader" basically shouting everyone down and spitting the dummy out a lot. I'm so relieved that our noble leader (male Boudica) has offered to take a few noobs under his wing. Makes the game more relaxed and gets the best out of everyone.

Anyway.... let's open up a can of whoop @ss!

 

[Bede]

My notion of the early war with Japan was a "Let's him and you fight, I'll watch." strategy.

Random thoughts:

1) Japan has to cross an entire continent to reach us.
2) They are the culture monster and need to come down a peg or two.
3) We have the economic muscle to hire evrybody against them.
4) Once Map Making comes in (~17 turns IIRC) we can load GS's, catapults, settlers and workers into boats and send them across the straits for a beach head.
5) War Weariness is not an issue in our available governments so eternal war should not bother us, especially if it is against somebody who can't reach us.
6) Looking at the map it appears to me that Japan and the Celts are the only nations with decent lands to work with, the only exception might be Sumer who I believe is north of India. So the taking of other towns are going to be fraught with issues like slow pop growth. That's where the ToA will help us big time, no need to sacrifice population for rushed culture
7) I don't think we will be researching the branches of the tech tree that lead to Education for some time. All we need from the top o' the tree is Theology for Cathedrals. Then make a beeline along the bottom to Cavalry.
8) On the barbarian thing I think it relates to the map, a crowded pan'. The other guys priortrize barbarian hunts so they have been pretty well eliminated from the main portion of the map. Our warrior exploring north of Carthage did find a village and popped barbs who disappeared into the jungles to the east.
9) As far as a "noble leader" (male Boudica? ) it is in the nature of things that the more thoughtful the team the better the leadership. You guys are good at this so it makes me look better.

 

[Pied Piper]

I imagine that Japan will also be getting Mapmaking soon. If most of their units are walking over to us at that time then they can't come across on ships when they do build some a dozen turns from now.

 

[Pied Piper]

Just a sanity check here but I went into the save and tried to arrange alliance with Carthage as that seemed the most appropriate civ to start with. Even though he is very polite, he refused. So I talked with our creditors and gave the researchers a holiday, Carthage still won't fight with us. Does his price come down if we are actually at war, or if Japan has troops in his territory? I tried the other civs but realized we don't have embassies with anyone else except Japan. Maybe we should spend some gold for this.

Mab, I would not worry too much, it is well over 20 tiles through difficult terrain for India to even get to Augustodurum, I think a horse could just make it in 20 turns. Feel free to stop and ask for tactical advice at any time regardless of the situation. For instance, India may have an exploring unit or two that is closer to Augustodurum. BTW, I thought that city was supposed to be on the hill, not in the remains of a wasted forest. Wait till Bede hears about those poor trees.

 

[Minute Man]

Carthage still won't fight with us. Does his price come down if we are actually at war, or if Japan has troops in his territory?

Actually, I think our rep's been trashed (see below). So he won't take gpt.

...Augustodurum. BTW, I thought that city was supposed to be on the hill, not in the remains of a wasted forest. Wait till Bede hears about those poor trees.

Bede founded it.

Now, on with the report:

The Save

0 - 1000 BC

After looking at the game a bit, I definitely like the idea of dogpiling Japan. They're the most powerful (known) civ, they have land we can use, and they can't do anything more threatening than stand on the other side of the channel and shout insults at us until they develop Map Making. So operation "Setting Sun" is put into action.

First, trade Poly from Japan. Unfortunately, he won't give it to us for anything less than Currency. So I grit my teeth and do it. Then I inform Tokugawa that his miserly ways are an affront to the Celtic people, and that we'll be dropping by to claim some of his territory ... er, whenever we get around to building things that float.

Establish embassy with India. Trade Gandhi Philo for 112 gold + MA vs. Japan.

Establish embassy with Iroquois. Trade Hiawatha Math + 65 gold for MA vs. Japan. In the process of the negotiations, discover that he won't accept gpt. It looks like our rep's already been trashed! I went back later and looked at the initial save, and it was already gone at the start of my turns, so not sure when it happened.

Establish embassy with Mongols. Discover that Karakorum is building the Great Library, due in 35 turns. Trade Temujin Philo for 23 gold + MA vs. Japan.

Give Hannibal 300 gold (ouch!) for MA vs. Japan. But it was either that or give him Currency, which doesn't seem worth it.

China has no contact with Japan, so can't invite him to the party.

Now for a decision on ToA. I'm coming around to the belief that it would be pretty darn useful, and we have enough other cities with food bonuses that we don't really need Entremont to build settlers. It looks like Karakorum might have enough of a head start to beat us if they cascade from the GL, so I decide it's worth the dough to investigate Carthage. GL is due there in 33 turns.

It's going to be close, but after staring at the screenshots for a while, I decide that we do have a good shot at winning the race, but we need to start now. So Entremont switched to ToA. Due in 44, but that'll drop. I think getting another worker or two over there is a high priority, though, as it's just about out of improved spaces to work.

Finally, I shuffle a couple of units around to have some forces ready near the coast for when (if?) Japan does show up. Change Gergovia to a worker, as we have a pretty serious worker shortage. Also note that we still have four unmet civs, so need to do more exploring.

OK, after all of that (and more than an hour), I finally press enter and start my turns.

1 - 975 BC

Wouldn't you know it, India has Map Making now. Right after all that trading I just did. Well, at least he won't be trading it to Japan anytime soon.

Trade Lit + 104 gold to Gandhi for MM. Trade MM to Carthage and get the 300 gold we just gave him back. Trade Philo to Iroquois for 96 gold and a worker. Buy a worker from the Mongols for 120 gold. Research set to Code of Laws.

We're not anywhere near ready to invade Japan, so I don't start any galleys. Besides, our two good coastal cities are building wonders right now...

3 - 925 BC

For future reference, the plains 2 spaces NE of Entremont, even though it's on the river, is not actually on the river. Waste a couple of worker moves finding this out.

4 - 900 BC

Burdigala founded. Buy an Iroquois worker for 108 gold.

IT - our warrior N of Carthage gets killed by barbs. He was even standing on a mountain.

5 - 875 BC

Entremont is threatening to riot, so lux to 20%. Whip a temple in Augustodurum. Not entirely sure whether whipping a temple in Agedincum is worth it, but decide to go ahead and do it.

6 - 850 BC

Whip a temple in Eboracum. Note that India has Poly now. A couple of the AIs have money, but about all we have to sell is Poly and Currency, and I'd like to wait a bit and see if Construction comes on the market.

IT - our warrior near Japan is attacked by a Japanese warrior (and wins), then a swordsman (and loses). So now we have no exploring warriors.

8 - 800 BC

Orleans just completed the Statue of Zeus. Change the Richborough build into a library.

Japan is now willing to talk peace. Even though we haven't done anything to him, he'd be willing to give his entire treasury (23 gold) for it.



Notes: There are two settlers en route. The northern one should found where he's standing. The other one is headed two spaces to the SW.

Still no contact with the other four civs. Don't know where they are.

I'm pretty sure we can beat either Karakorum or Carthage to the ToA. Especially if Hannibal doesn't get his hands on any luxuries anytime soon.

We have a couple of galleys being built. Should probably start thinking about when would be a good time to invade Japan.

Pictures coming in a few minutes....

 

[Minute Man]

Here are the cities I got to see:

And our core at 750 BC:

Roster check:

Mab - up!
Tubby Rower - on deck
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede
Minute Man

 

[Pied Piper]

An hour to press return? Finally someone that plays slower than me. Will have to call you the 60 minute man from now on. BTW, this is a 100k culture game, it is never wrong to whip a temple, unless you lose the city. To get a lux good inside the radius is an extra incentive.

Too bad about SoZ, perhaps Rich can take over ToA and let Ent build a library and get back to doing what it does best. (settler/GS factory)

 

[Pied Piper]

Oh good, some pictures are up. Nice turns there MM. Another luxury online soon. Looks like China is trying an end run with a settler past Lug. Must throw up a unit wall to stop that until we build that north city.

I know that I would build two boats and at least 4-6 catapults before invading Japan, but then I am used to a higher difficulty level. Maybe the RNG will be more forgiving at this level.

 

[eldar]

Note we can drop off 4 units per turn with each boat! It's like having a Galleon (except we can't transport full Armies....)

 

[Bede]

Just checked the save, both at 1000BC and 750BC, and there is nothing to worry about the trading reputation. Apparently the other nations have spies in our Exchequer as our credit is good so long as we are running a surplus, but not if we are running a deficit. If the reputation had been "trashed" the other party to the deal would have told us why, as in "We remember what you did to the Mongols!"

Also, you can't enter into an alliance until you are actually at war, or the other guy is at war with the victim.

Good call on the temple whips in the newer towns, should have pointed out that as soon as new town grows to 2 whip the temple.

Need to pull some workers into roading the forests at Entremont then add them to the city (natices only please) as the forests get their roads or the grasslands are mined.

Our progress is good but there are other teams with steeper curves. Not sure that means anything though as the curves don't count "kultcha" It may be time to put the arhcers and a cat or two to work on the Chinese. It will add to our empire faster than we can build settlers, I think.

 

[Tubby Rower]

Also, you can't enter into an alliance until you are actually at war, or the other guy is at war with the victim.

In the immortal words of the late Johnny Carson, "I did not know that!"

I think that Mad-Bax or Alan is working on a graph for culture instead of Fraxis score. Which would be nice for a game where everyone HAS to play the variant.

So the French will have Ancient Calvary running around. Have we met them yet? Is there another landmass anywhere for the unmet civs to be hiding out?

@ mab, take your time. Think things through. and you'll do fine. I'm still learning myself and in these succession games I think that you tend to do better because you only play 10 turns. So don't worry about screwing things up and take your time. If you have questions stop and ask.

EDIT:::How many shields per turn is Richboro making in comparision to ENtremont? That could help decide whether to switch the ToA build to Rich. or not.

 

[Minute Man]

An hour to press return? Finally someone that plays slower than me. Will have to call you the 60 minute man from now on.

Well, there were trades to make, a war to start, a dogpile to arrange... and I did spend a lot of time trying to calculate whether we could actually compete for the ToA. I do play slowly, though.

Just checked the save, both at 1000BC and 750BC, and there is nothing to worry about the trading reputation. Apparently the other nations have spies in our Exchequer as our credit is good so long as we are running a surplus, but not if we are running a deficit.

That's good to know. I noticed that they were reluctant to accept gpt, so I tried the test where I asked for 10 gold and offered a couple of gpt in return. They wouldn't take it, so I figured that meant our rep had been trashed. I didn't realize running a deficit had the same effect.

So the French will have Ancient Calvary running around. Have we met them yet? Is there another landmass anywhere for the unmet civs to be hiding out?

Well, in theory this is a "contiguous pangea". I am a little surprised that I didn't find any new civs, but the continent is so big that our curragh still has a long way to go to get around the whole thing.

EDIT:::How many shields per turn is Richboro making in comparision to ENtremont? That could help decide whether to switch the ToA build to Rich. or not.

Without looking at the save, I think Entremont is making 12 or so spt, while Richborough is more like 7. I think we definitely need to build the ToA in Entremont, or we risk losing it to a cascade from the GL. I just hope there isn't an unmet civ working on it...

 

[mabellino]

I'm here!
Man it's annoying not being able to check this during the day My last job didn't block any websites so I got used to skiving off on here!

Congrats on the excellent trades and dogpiling 60MM, I'm always reluctant to give tech away but this time the only civ able to buy it was the one we're all at war with anyway.... nice work!

I'm not too worried about losing SoZ to the french, we've not even met them yet so they'll have to send all those free (but soon to be obsolete) AC throught everyone else to get to us. Toa is priority #1, I'll do a few calculations before my turns start and post the results here later.
I won't be able to play tonight (well not all 10turns) but will give a progress report asap.

@MM why did you only play 8 turns?

@Bede, Boudica was the only druid I could think of and she's female so I thought I should emphasize the "MALE" part!

 

[Minute Man]

Toa is priority #1, I'll do a few calculations before my turns start and post the results here later.

FWIW, my initial calculation (when I investigated cities at the start of my turn) was that Karakorum, with growth, would finish ToA in approx. 30-35 turns (20-25 from now), if it cascaded from the GL. Carthage had slightly more of a head start but less growth potential (especially since they needed an entertainer already), so will probably be a bit slower. And of course we only need to beat one of the two to get ToA.

I think we can beat Carthage, at least, but only if we use Entremont (which has probably accumulated close to 150 shields so far, so changing it to a library would be a big waste). I'm just a little worried about a cascade from one of those civs we haven't met yet.

@MM why did you only play 8 turns?

I played the full ten (the save is at 750 BC). But nothing exciting happened on the last two, so I left them out of the report.

Looks like China is trying an end run with a settler past Lug. Must throw up a unit wall to stop that until we build that north city.

Missed this earlier. The northern settler I mentioned is already in position to found that city.

 

[Pied Piper]

Mab, I know war is not your thing but there is an opportunity here for some aggressive war prep "Maneuvers" wrt China.

MM already has a settler in position up north but China will still send their settler/spearman that way. Most likely one tile north of Lug. LET THEM THROUGH. But before you take your first turn you must send an archer pair out of Lug and across the river, just not to that tile. After China advances then send out another archer pair 1 tile NW and move the first archer pair to the tile China came from, to block them INSIDE our territory. After that you can play with them like a cat with a mouse, demand that they leave turn after turn until they actually declare war. Hopefully you will not have let them move into any good defensive terrain when this happens.

ALSO, there is another settler on its way to the green valley SW of Verul. Track them with the archers from Verul and Alesia, since MP not needed, but not with units from cities further west. The warrior on the mountain may also be used since those workers are not at risk before job completion. Connecting the 1 tile to Ebora should take precedence over the rest of the west road.

It looks to me like a war with China in the latter half of your turns would be extremely prudent. If you start now you may get them to declare on you.

 

[Bede]

Not sure I see any reason to "cat and mouse" the Chinese. Just position a couple of troops to wahck the settler pair when the other forces are in place to hit Chengdu. Just make sure we don't have anybody in their territory when we declare.

We will need at least two cats if we want to limit casualties to our archers, however. Though using the Gallics to inaugurate our Golden Age will probably guarantee us the ToA. We are close enough to the Middle Ages that starting it now is not that bad an idea. I have looked at the tech cost curve using CivAssist and the last AA techs are as costly as MA techs on a standard map. (Costs are a function of map size and number of opponents and may have been enhanced as part of the "equalization process" between C3C and 1.29/PTW.)

@Mab, Some things to remember about tactics:

1) Keep your eye on the prize. Do not scatter your forces.
2) Do not chase stray enemy troops unless they threaten to do damage elsewhere. Let the garrison troops at home deal with any incursions.
3) Speed kills. Play deliberately.
4) Speed kills. Hit and move on. Leave the wounded to heal and provide garrisons if necessary. Keep the healthy on the march.
5) Have fun playing Patton!