SGOTM6 - Team Bede

[Bede]

Concur with Construction after checking tech costs.

Also concur with not using the capitol for the ToA.

The more I think on it the less tempted I am to build the Temple though making a try for it in Richborough is the good choice. Richborough, however is only 2spt at the moment and will need to grow a bunch before tackling a 500 shield wonder that is only 1 tech away.

We will need Map Making and boats to go after Japan and lots of units for any towns we put over there as Japan is the current culture monster, though taking on Japan before they get to Samurai is important.

I think my plan is to work Entremont for Gallics and settlers, the other towns for archers and settlers and to close the gap between the current border and the Incense.
Piper's notion of moving the northern settler to the west fits well into that.

BTW, silks, not ivory, is the pre-req for the SoZ. Checked with m-b in the SGOTM Maintenance Thread. That makes for a whole 'nother discussion: do we want to build the Statue in Entremont? AC + Gallics will be nearly unstoppable. But it is eighteen turns or so to the Statue which is the equvalent of 4 GS's.

Keep those comments coming, I think advice and consent is needed from all the Druids here.

 

[Tubby Rower]

BTW, silks, not ivory, is the pre-req for the SoZ.

That's kooky. I haven't been able to look at the save recently enough to know where to build SoZ, but I think that it would be nice to have a silk statue of Zeus instead of the Ivory one of history!!

BTW, I was playing the Celts in a solo game one time and the Gaellic Swords upgrade to MDI with zero cost. I thought that something was wrong at first but they both have the same amount of shield-cost.

 

[eldar]

I wouldn't go with the upgrade, though. After our GA, though, we won't be able to build Gallics, if we have Feudalism: it sucks, but that's the way it is

 

[eldar]

A few more thoughts on the free tech (assuming we get it, of course!)

You can bet your bottom dollar that the AIs will, for the most part, be researching either Construction or Map Making. So Construction, if we go for it, will be worth a few turns' of research, and no techs. Currency, on the other hand, may well end up netting us Poly, MM, and Constr, in conjunction with Philo. So I'm changing my vote for the free tech to the least researched by the AI - Currency.

Neil.

 

[Tubby Rower]

I've seen Currency net big gains (pun intended) before too. That's usually the last AA tech that they'll go for. I'm with eldar. Let's get currency!

 

[Minute Man]

I'm leaning toward not building the ToA. It would be nice to have, but not quite nice enough to be worth the 500 shields. Particularly since we don't have a great place to build it unless we want to tie up Entremont. Maybe we can convince one of our neighbors to build it for us.

Not sure about the SoZ. It seems less impressive for the Celts because it basically just gives us more Gallics. OTOH, we can go to war with AC and archers and not trigger our GA. So I'm not sure whether it's worth building or not.

I like Currency as the free tech as well.

Sending the northern settler west seems like a good idea. I'm not sure about the southern settler - it seems like there ought to be something better to do than building fishing villages in the tundra. We'll get the dyes when Gergovia expands its borders anyway.

Trying for the incense is probably a good idea, but it makes me nervous to build a city that far away from our territory. I'm not sure the suggested spot is best - we could go a space N of there and be on the coast, or a space E and be on a hill on the river, and either would get the incense on border expansion. It's going to take us a while to connect roads anyway, so I don't see much point in trying to have it immediately. Or are we worried that somebody will poach the incense unless we settle right next to it?

 

[Pied Piper]

I feel a little silly; if we can get construction then of course we could get currency. I got sidetracked by the poly choice. Currency gets my vote for the freebie. I will say that we should delay trading it once we get it so that we don't advance the AI too fast. We will want to trade it before they research it completely though.

The nicest thing about building the SoZ will be that we won't have to fight some other civ that has it. An AC may be equivalent to a GS but I would think that we would get more than 5 AC from the statue, unless we really speed up the AI research pace. Plus we get all the culture as well (100K goal) for a relatively cheap wonder that won't be strongly contested. And using the AC won't trigger our GA. I vote strongly for this proposal.

Though I doubt we can convert a Japanese city it would be great if we did. There is room for two cities on the coast between Rich and Ent. Do we want two here or only one, and if only one then where should it go? If two are desired then the locations are fixed. Let's decide which and rush a temple. The sooner this is done the more likely it will succeed.

Speaking of Rich, it will grow twice as fast as normal with the irrigated wheat. Just devote a worker to irrigate the surrounding plains in order to accomodate the growing population. If we don't get ToA then we get something else instead, the FP if nothing else. How many cities will we need to qualify for FP, is that still 10?

I wouldn't worry about the security of building a city by the Incense. Our roads already go halfway there. Building a connected road network is one of the most important things that workers can do, so lets make that a priority while we are still at peace. Personally I would prefer building on the river over there. I have never seen the AI build a city with culture borders that touch - unless they have no other room.

 

[Pied Piper]

Was looking at the save and the area of Rich. We could pop rush a temple now for a relatively efficient 16 shield gain. With the border expansion this would reserve some tiles on the other continent that could be used to settle a city with barracks to act as our forward base during the Japan war.

For micromanagement, the shortfall of 11 grain will mean two turns of working just the plains after the whip (gains 2 shields in same number of turns), and then back to the wheat. Rich actually grows every 4 turns (not 5 as I first thought), so we should probably keep both workers there for quite a while.

The waste of shields in Ent next turn is just way too painful to see. Can we switch that to SoZ (only 15 turns, with growth) or even a library (5 turns) please?

 

[Bede]

Good thinking all. Let's keep it up.

Play has been delayed as AlanH is fixing a little problem in the C3C saves on the server. The issue relates to naval movement.

BTW, it is a good idea for everyone to subscribe to the SGOTM6 Maintenance Thread, if you haven't already. Because these games are modded occasional glitches occur and are reported there, as are the fixes if any.

 

[Pied Piper]

Yep, I read it and still don't understand how it has/will affect us.

Did take a moment to make an expansion plan proposal. Everything inside the white border is roughly our productive core. Still some squatters we need to evict, or convert. The large harp symbol is immediate goal, the small symbol with #2 is a second generation fill city once we have security established and settler factories online. Cities outside this zone should be widely spaced and limited to controlling area (and resources) so as to not drive corruption into the core. Would be prudent to build second gen cities from the outside inward, as the situation warrants. Third generation can then be outside the core, if the game is still not won.

As I see it, after this current crop of settlers, there are only 5 core first gen cities left to build that do not have culture border conflict, or require ships. Plan accordingly. For an easy reference point, Osaka is 11 tiles directly east of our capital.

 

[Pied Piper]

With regard to the development of the west, there are 9 tiles that need roads essential to the security and happiness of our cultured citizens. Only two are mountainous, but then again, the rest are hills and forest.

 

[mabellino]

This "druid" agrees with most of the above, I usually go for currency anyway as soon as I get Maths cos I've noticed the AI often leave it till last, and those marketplaces are a handy improvement to have.
As for wonders, this is emperor right? That means we're up against lower build costs so we should get cracking on any important wonders as soon as poss. I don't know if we'll have the time to wait for Rich to grow, but Entremot is one of our best cities and it might be foolhardy to commit all its production to a wonder before we're ready.

Do we have embassies yet? They might provide a handy spying window in a few turns, once wonder prod starts up. Does everyone have that pop-up enabled?

 

[eldar]

We have one embassy, with Carthage; Hannibal established it with us, saving us the pennies

 

[Bede]

Nice plan, Piper. Everybody download and paste to the monitor please.
Orange harps?
And excellent divination from all.

I think I let Richborough start on the SoZ. If we get it, great, if we don't we have a prebuild for a library or university, or even ToA. It's far enough from the action that a barracks is a waste.

Take Currency for free tech, build military, sail our now +1 movement curraghs, develop tpwards the west.

 

[Bede]

The Save

In 1200 Japanese start the Pyramids.

In 1175 Philosphy comes in right on time and we learn Currency for free and start on Map Making.

In 1125 foudned Augustdorum on the river next to the Incense. I just hated to give up the river food bonus.

In 1100 Hannibal empties his treasury for Philosphy (496g). Everybody else in the world is broke.

Also in 1100 founded Ebarocum west of the lake

In 1075 Babylon completes the Pyramids. Mongols start the Library, Carthage the Library, and the MausHaus. No completions.

In 1050 Japanese start Temple of Artemis, as I expected they might, in Osaka, 4spt, due in 64, with a bunch of shields in the bin, must have swapped from something else. I also note the Temple at Osaka was built more a thousand years ago.

In 1025 buy a worker from India for 104g.

1000
There is a settler heading west from Camulodunum, a settler due in 4 from Camulodunum, and Entremont can switch to a settler when its sword is done.

There are a few trades to be done, Literature to India for example, and Poly from Japan. Lugdumunum is within a couple of shields of taking over the military build duties from Entremont, which could produce the ToA faster than Osaka as we have 3x the shields and potential for more. I'm tempted to go for it.

If we don't start the ToA at Entremont, then it is 7 turn Gallic settler producer. Building a Gallic in 4 from pop5 to 6 then a settler from pop5 to pop7.

I am going to make my pitch for forest preservation again. Chopping the silks forest at Alesia cost us a high gold, high shield field. If a chop were needed it could have been done in the west, but remember we have the equivalent of two bonus food fields with the city center and the irrigated game. Please keep that in mind, if you want the Druid Bede to be happy, leave his oak trees alone.

We have the muscle to start a dogpile on the Japanese who are the territorial and cultural leader right now. I'm inclined to do it. It would slow them down right now, pit everybody in the workld against them, and kill the tech pace every place but in the Celtic Realm. Just make sure to get Polytheism from them first. We wouldn't have to face any fighting for quite a while as everyone between us and them is sucked into the war, and when we learn Map Making and build a few galleys we can make a landing in force on their shores...

 

[Pied Piper]

Nice moves Bede, I like that you did the MM in August. Verul should probably work the tree on the river though, although for one wasted shield instead of four I would rather just work the grasslands. Tell you what, I promise to plant a tree in every city when we learn Engineering. What I won't say is how long they last before getting chopped down. The silk tree will not be cut by me once it is replanted. BTW, Rich has two trees in the radius now so we probably don't want to mine any more plains over there.

Just a question on the war plans for now, did you want to build so many GS this early? I would think that you would prefer two archers instead of one GS from Ent since it has an even 10spt production. I would have thought that having one or two for emergencies and to put a little respect into the AI would be sufficient at this point.

Japan is obviously the top priority target but there are two chinese cities that probably should be razed and a Mongol one that could be taken over. Is there any requirement for reputation, are we allowed to declare war, and also, should we, if the situation for gain arises?

Perhaps we can start a few catapults soon? Perfer to build them in cities without barracks, Geo is the only reasonable place after the current build finishes.

 

[Bede]

It's been my experience that velocity outweighs mass so I really prefer GS's over archers despite the cost advantage of archers. Hence my preference for horsemen over archers when I can build them. Concur that catapaults are useful in any case.

Declaring war will not harm our reputation although it may affect attitude, so any time we feel the need to blood our swords, declare away. I would prefer keeping any cities we take as that is just one less settler we need to produce.

Mining two more plains at Richborough will put more gold in the treasury than working the trees on the islands or in the corner. Even without the ability to pay for improvements the added gold will support more buildings.

In towns without food bonuses it is best to work the grasslands for the population growth, at least until we hit the natural limit for the town.

 

[eldar]

May I suggest getting a Library in Entremont sooner rather than later? Libraries to follow suit in the rest of the core, too.

 

[Pied Piper]

Well I was just concerned about triggering the GA, when did you want that to happen?

Fortunately most of our towns are on rivers, so the pop limit is 12. I suscribe to the growth is power philosophy, so I prefer to irrigate first where possible and then mine. More than 5fpt surplus is where I tend to draw the line of diminishing returns.

I also shave off workers when there is no developed tile for new pop. For instance, the next build for Verul should be a worker. There really should be another worker devoted to the road west.

A dozen catapults makes for a good initial build set. Keeps the contractors happy and a big help in keeping our losses down. All those archers we have are also good for free defensive shots when they retire from active duty.

I also would like to start building libraries sooner rather than later. If we can stay out of war that would help. We have most of western core area. Japan is the big target for our military ambitions. We have much to gain there, as opposed to a single productive city each from Mongols and China.

Hangchow must be razed I feel. The only tile over there not on a river. The AI certainly has a talent for building this way. Chengdu can be a keeper but I would not be unhappy with an autoraze.

War with Japan is worth an earlier GA, but only if it is on the other continent. Fighting them on our side should only be done with archers, until we can bring the fight to them. With reduced naval movement any ships will probably be best employed as land bridges. If we do finish SoZ before ships are built that will give us a chance to delay using our GS over there.

I like the dogpile idea on Japan as we will benefit the most. Did we want Japan to finish ToA in Osaka before we take it?

 

[Pied Piper]

If I am not mistaken:

Minute Man - up
Mab - on deck
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede
___________

I really do like the score graph comparing our progress to the other teams but remember to only compare with those teams playing C3C. Also don't get too concerned with score since culture (100K!) is what really matters.