SGOTM6 - Team CDZ

[col]

Ok - I've checked back to the start of my last 10 turns. It was perfectly possible to balance the economy with wealth and tax collectors without selling any buildings. Under these circumstances, our finish date would have been exactly the same - not 2 turns.

I dont see how we can be penalised for a breaking a rule not listed.

 

[Gyathaar]

That's a bit of an over-sight on our part. I believe this was discussed a year or so back, and banned - we need to update our rules to account for it.

lurker's comment: I actually noted on page 4 of our teams thread (xteam) that there was no mention of this in the rules.. but I didnt bring this up again, and we avoided the issue

 

[anarres]

I agree with col - this was not in the rules we had to work from and so we should not be penalised at all.

Even if you *do* want to penalise us, why on earth should be lose a few turns when (as col rigthly points out) we would finish the same turn anyway?

 

[ainwood]

Generally, the etiquitte that we follow is for anyone who thinks that something they are going to do is exploitive should get it cleared first (and akots knew about this from the GOTMs).

 

[carlosMM]

Generally, the etiquitte that we follow is for anyone who thinks that something they are going to do is exploitive should get it cleared first (and akots knew about this from the GOTMs).

col played, and col obviously didn't realize this until it was too late. Not akots.

Are you trying to insinuate that akots knew, suspected - and let it slip?
Or that col knew this might be an exploit and still kept silent?

 

[ainwood]

Are you trying to insinuate that akots knew, suspected - and let it slip?
Or that col knew this might be an exploit and still kept silent?

I'm not trying to stir trouble here, just providing a view on why MB made his ruling. akots stated above that he did know that it was exploitive - however he either didn't think it was important, didn't think GOTM "rules" applied, or he didn't realise it was happening (thought the game would be over before you went deficit)

However:

@Akots - as I recall we were urged to exploit everything we could without breaking the rules if we were to be competitive.

Suggest that col knew it was 'exploitive', but didn't realise it was disallowed. That is our fault. Within GOTM circles, it is basically common-knowledge that this sort of exploit isn't permissable. Doesn't excuse us from not having included it in the rules, but its for this reason why we encourage people to check potential exploits before using them.

 

[carlosMM]

I'm not trying to stir trouble here, just providing a view on why MB made his ruling. akots stated above that he did know that it was exploitive - however he either didn't think it was important, didn't think GOTM "rules" applied, or he didn't realise it was happening (thought the game would be over before you went deficit)

as I said: totally beside the point, as akots READ about this HERE, after col had played.

However:


Suggest that col knew it was 'exploitive', but didn't realise it was disallowed. That is our fault. Within GOTM circles, it is basically common-knowledge that this sort of exploit isn't permissable. Doesn't excuse us from not having included it in the rules, but its for this reason why we encourage people to check potential exploits before using them.

that was a general comment, directed at this:

@Col: First, it was not intentional. Second, it is not important. Third, negative treasury is a violation of the gotm rules but not those which are on page, so you could have asked.

This requires that col knows GOTM rules.

If, OTOHm you read col's turn log you see he didn't THEN realize it might be an exploit:

We are runninga huge deficit! - 391gp and only 285 in the kitty! Oops. No-one has any gold and we are running 0.0.10. Hmm. Time to disband stuff?? Only 70 units left so not much scope there.
Looks like we need to build wealth or risk culture buildings being sold.

Lets see if we have any none culture buildings we can flog off. Hmm - all rax gone - and I only found a couple of granaries thjat can go. Sold a couple of courthouses in cities that already totally corrupt.

Looks like we just bite on this one. Sold our map around and lux to extract all AI cash. Enough for this turn...Turn to wealth.Cant build and disband enough now.

no indication whatsoever.

So your conclusion that one can read from col's post that he knew it was 'exploitive' is based on hot air.

 

[Offa]

From another lurker:

I think any judgement against would be harsh. Surely the exploit bit of running neg gpt is when the player has science (or lux) raised up beyond a sustainable level, whereas Col was running 100% tax.

If it is banned, which is OK, then it should be explicited stated. It isn't completely obvious: for example Superslug has allowed neg gpt (with some provisos) in the HOF.

Fortunately we didn't lose all our money, so didn't fall foul of this.

It looks like you are cruising to a solid second place , unless...

 

[mad-bax]

Please let us not get inflamed about this. FWIW akots posted to the effect that the team should find a way to balance the economy. His advice was correct, and what ainwood said is also correct.

I have taken the time to examine your current save and the preceeding save and have run the numbers. Whether or not you used the exploit, and whether or not you continue to use the exploit it will not affect your result. You will not be penalised.

Now you know that this exploit has been banned, please do all you can to rectify it for the remainder of the game.
There is no need to get exercised over this. It happened, it's done.

Let's move on.

 

[col]

Ok - we're cool. As you know most of us havent played GOTM for quite a while.

It was simply a matter of convenience rather than exploit. It was clear that we would finish in 16 turns from the start of my session regardless of anything I did - and I simply couldnt be bothered setting 200+ cities to wealth and adjusting 100 cities to produce a tax collector. I did it this morning with the 1200ad save and checked that this would indeed allow us to run with no deficit and no disbanding.

I simply judged that losing one temple per turn would make no difference at all to our finish and simply played the turns quickly so we could finish.

My bad .

 

[carlosMM]

I have taken the time to examine your current save and the preceeding save and have run the numbers. Whether or not you used the exploit, and whether or not you continue to use the exploit it will not affect your result. You will not be penalised.

Now you know that this exploit has been banned, please do all you can to rectify it for the remainder of the game.
There is no need to get exercised over this. It happened, it's done.

Let's move on.

it is obviously a matter of honor to immediately try and rectify the error for the rest of the game.

 

[col]

Someone wanna play those last 6 turns?? A bit of tedious setting tax collectors and putting everything to wealth to do. Then press return 6 times.

 

[mad-bax]

Ok - we're cool. As you know most of us havent played GOTM for quite a while.

Aah, but GOTM43 is only a fortnight away with a map by an exceptionally gifted guest designer apparently.

 

[col]

Ok then - I have an hour to spare before I meet TB
I'll finish this off.

 

[col]

Load the save.

Set everything to Wealth. Now about 90 gpt down. .
Tax increases all round.

Improved services for all with 70 tax collectors and we are now running at a profit.

Culture at 88594. Press return

1. 1280ad The Brits retake a city from the nastly vikings. We are noe +12 gpt. Culture is 90598

2. 1285ad The Brit city flips to us. The vikings commit unspeakable atrocities on our army with their cavalry. Wea re at +20 gpt. Culture is 92602

3. 1290AD. Vikings burn a jungle city then head for home. +17 gpt. Culture is 94604

4. 1295AD Vikings make peace with English.- and with us. +21gpt Culture is 96606

5. 1300aD +21GPT culture is 98608.

6. 1305 We win by culture. 113 hours, 55 minutes and 21 seconds..... Save game. Upload.

 

[mad-bax]

Congratulations guys.

 

[Kingreno]

Nice one guys. Now let's play tiny maps from now on.

 

[Whomp]

Congrats guys. I thought we might be able to eek out 2nd but getting those pyramids was huge.

 

[akots]

I knew only after col has played and posted. But seems the conflict is resolved. Indeed it was of little importance or so it seems.

Great game it was! Thanks everyone for playing the game and mad-bax and GOTM stuff for administering it!

 

[Gyathaar]

grats on finishing