SGOTM7 - Team tao

[Keath]

Great stuff! I like the idea. If Madras got the GLH then India would be a great target. Otherwise hiding, revolting to Republic for the extra commerce (or Monarchy if wars are too much for weariness), building horsemen, and researching MT would seem to be a good plan. By then we could have a navy and start sinking ships to prepare for later invasions.

It's too bad the cost of harbours is 80 sheilds. In some games it's only 40. Still, Antalya, Sogut and Bursa could use the coastal tiles for a larger pop and extra gold. Maybe six to eight galleys would make for a good coast guard and basis for an invasion fleet.

Now the idea of letting the AI come to us is a good one. We might get a leader or two. Imagine having a nice fleet and the extra movement and sea capability of the GLH if a neighbour should be so *lucky* to get it. And if one of them does, we could jump the palace or use a leader to build a new one. Sogut is just too nice to abandon, right?

The question is if we hold off early invasions will we catch up with our awesome uu? I think we would. The AI'd never knew what hit 'em.

 

[tao]

I was thinking along completely different lines:

Will we ever reach MT, or will we be able to finish the game with knights?

Should we research chivalry ourselves, because the AIs are too small/weak to do it fast?

 

[Renata]

I don't know. I'm not even really sure how harsh the attacks will wind up being. We've yet to meet three civs. I'm not counting on Persia being very tough given the fact that we can see their borders and they've yet to show up. America and Scandinavia -- well it sort of depends where they are as to what the implications of them not turning up yet are. And the AIs have only just now gotten contact with one another, so it's hard to say yet what the research rate is going to turn out to be like. There are so many unknowns.

Renata

 

[Sabre]

I think either way an attack on India soonish is a good idea. Getting that second core will be a game breaker that places us far above anything the AI can muster. The AI is just as bad at attacking each other with naval landings as they are attacking us, so I can't see any civ rivalling us unless America/Vikings have a large island. By the time we have our attack on India underway we should have a much better idea of how fast the tech pace will be. Personally, I think we can take India with Swords/Med Inf and, if we can get a Palace up there, either research Chivalry fast or beeline to MT.

Arabia and the Zulus have shown no indication of being more than an occasional annoyance, Persia's lack of buying our contact indicates to me that they are at best the same level as the other knowns and while America/Vikings are wildcards it seems they may be too far away to be a big problem right now.

From what we know right now, I'd think we can take India soon and get to Knights fast. Knights look to be plenty to take out Zulus, Arabia and probably Persia. Once we make contact with Persia and get their map we'll have a much better idea if we'll have to get MT at all. I'd prefer to take the option that gets us the win fast and even though the Sipahi rock, I think by the time we research MT we could have most of 4 civs conquered. Sipahi could be the last nudge we need if America/Vikings prove to be tougher than our neighbors.

 

[Renata]

Did you happen to notice how many units went into or out of Lahore during your turns? During the last five of mine (after I got the spying warrior over there), it was three spears and an archer in, nothing out. The town's got to have a rather fearsome garrison.

By the way, want to see a scary number? Even with just eight cities, India's unit support is 8x8+16 = 84 units. Urp.

More later; I need food.

Oh, by the way, I'm not really disagreeing with taking on India now if it turns out that we can swing it -- just wanted to point out another option, because I don't think India will be a cakewalk.

I also think we need more than three spears on first landing, unless the tiles between us and Lahore remain unroaded for however long it takes us to get a landing party together. But more on all of the above later, because I'm freaking hungry.

Renata

 

[Sabre]

All I noticed was 1 spear leaving Lahore. Whether that was one you saw or one built there I don't know.

Yeah, even with small numbers of towns we will face decent sized forces. Luckily, the AIs reached their limit in towns - and support - early so hopefully much of that will be spears and archers. We can probably expect about 3 spears per town leaving 63 mixed units. Maybe 8 or more workers and galleys? That leaves 50-55 possible attackers and some of them will be spears too I imagine. Still, that's a large counterattack that will be scattered over the first 4-5 turns. 3 spears with the initial landing would be fine I think as long as our target remains unroaded, but we will need more in the reinforcements. Keeping a few spears in reserve at Sogut may be wise and shipped over in place of a sword if needed. Limiting our losses to mostly cheap spears will be important, though some attrition as we approach knights might be desirable to keep our military costs reasonable. Should we send a settler over early in the attack to speed up our troop ferrying?

I'm not disregarding your idea of waiting for sipahi, just that more info is needed. I do think sipahi could make short work of the opposition, the question is are they needed? That question I'm sure will be answered soon. I can't imagine Persia or the others will remain a stranger for much longer. Regarding the map. How much will that cost? We should keep some of our gold unspent until we see if we can deal a tech for the map. Our territory map will be worth a fair bit, but the world map could be pricey since we have explored so little.

 

[Renata]

We might be able to trade a tech for a WM. Depends when our next contact is -- it almost has to be Persia -- and how weak they really are. Like I said, I'd rather not trade Lit, though.

Renata

 

[Keath]

This is very interesting! Here we have different ideas about how we should proceed and that is good! How can we decide?

First, the winning condition is first to domination, right? So a little calculation should give us an idea about how long it would take to get MT and second, what we could accomplish in the meantime to aid the cause.

On the other hand we need to calculate how long it would take to conquer the world without MT, using knights. Knights at 4/3/2 wouldn't have the powerful punch that Dragoons 8/3/3 have so what other units would give us trouble before we got Dragoons? The answer -- Elephants 4/3/2 and Cataphracts 4/2/3! And if we meet up with cavalry and rifles too early we would need Dragoons.

And the most important point is: Which would be more fun? Welcoming the AI into our spider trap while we secretly build a navy, research MT, get lots of gold and build horsemen for upgrades or strapping on our armour and lances and spearing us some elephant. Our closest neighbours could be tough nuts if we have only knights. The Americans and Vikings will have equality with their knights and the Vikings with their Galloglass 6/2/1 will be a danger to any lightly guarded coastal towns.

I love the come-from-behind race, myself, and I like to do something different. Wouldn't it be a lot more fun using powerful Dragoons to conquer them all rather than counting on the RNG gods to be kind to us?

We still have to meet the other civs but it looks like they are within reach of galleys. So it comes down to which is quicker. We may even have the time to build Leo's and get upgrades for half price. It would be nice to take out India, though. As Sabre points out a second core could be a game breaker.

What if we did a rough calculation. We know that it's a small map, that galleys will reach everyone and our uu is the best. We only need to research the lower track if we go with Dragoons so how long would that take if we built a few libraries and a prebuild for Leo's? Could we survive with Republic while we built up our army or will Monarchy be better?

Tao mentioned the Hanging Gardens for our GA - if we got it we'd have a great spell of building to maximize our growth. There is more than one way to win this thing - we just need the shortest route.

Like I said, I'd rather not trade Lit, though.

Another good point. How badly do we need the map?

 

[Tone]

I think we may need Indian territory to keep up the research rate so I would be keen to take them on, even if they are only relatively weak by Deity standards. What also concerns me is that our other weak neighbours may either get stronger through trading for iron or when they get longbows. Massive stacks of those are not fun to deal with, even when only defended by covering spears. My other fear is that there may be a strong beast out there in the fog (Persia?) and letting them take over the territory whilst we stand by and watch could mean that we store up trouble for the future. I guess we will need to play it by ear. I do like the idea of heading for MT asap though as our UU is fearsome. At some point do we need to consider a prebuild for Leos or is that out of the question due to wonder cascades from Sun Tzu et al?

Getting back to issues more current, I also think that we will need plenty of units in reserve for the 2nd wave as I understood the first wave to primarily defensive but maybe we need to consider the make up, balance and size of the force we are going to send over.

On a slightly different matter, do we need a galley town in the West and a harbour to ship resources across to Indian territory? If yes, perhaps Cowtown North could be our candidate? I guess it depends which we need most; another granary or the harbour?

 

[Furiey]

Playing now, I'm not going to build a Settler out of Izmit - Sogut can do that timed with growth to size 9. I'll build a Galley instead, and rather than get another stuck in Bursa change that to a Catapult. We do need Catapults, so I'll try and get a few of those built. If we do contact anyone else (I'll avoid Persia if I can) I'll look out for a Map trade, but avoid trading Literature. Any more specific suggestions - get them in now!

 

[Sabre]

I was thinking that a 2nd galley would make the journey to Sogut much safer. They may both end up damaged, but the likelyhood of surviving the trip would be higher.

 

[Furiey]

OK, 670 AD and I've got to stop for the night (My PC has started to misbehave as I was taking the screenies and cropping the map, so I'd have to re-boot anyway). A Persian Galley has shown up so I've had to declare on them, but not before I obtained a World Map and some Gold for CoL. They only have 4 cities and no new techs, but do have Iron and Horses.

Larger World Map from CivAssist (517KB)

CivAssist doesn't always seem to get production right - Izmit is actually Sword in 3 with no overrun rather than Sword in 4 with 6 overrun.

Oh yes - and there's an armarda heading for AI Bait!

 

[Keath]

@ Furiey - The link for your map doesn't work.

Wow! What a map! Does this mean that America could occupy the black area? It looks like everyone is accounted for but I wonder if there might be some virgin islands west of our island. A suicide mission may be necessary. Volunteers?

 

[tao]

@ Furiey - The link for your map doesn't work.

Wow! What a map! Does this mean that America could occupy the black area? It looks like everyone is accounted for but I wonder if there might be some virgin islands west of our island. A suicide mission may be necessary. Volunteers?

This is the correct link

It would be interesting to have the complete CivAssist data. It might be enough to take out India, Zulus, Arabs, and Persia to reach domination. Unless there is a large landmass in the west. Then we have to go for Vikings too.

The map shows all AIs to be "weak" compared to us. Thus we really might want to start researching towards feudalism in the Middle Ages.

 

[Furiey]

Thanks for sorting out the link, it would help if I actually linked to it! Shows it was probably a good time to stop anyway. The save is attached so you can have a better look. it looks like the land continues further North of the Americans and is so far unclaimed. The 3 Zulu Galleys by Bursa at the start went North between Zulu and India - perhaps they are heading round the top of India to the top of that or another Island.

 

[tao]

Just some fast thoughts:

I would build a settler in Uskudar and found a city to have baracks S-SE of Al Bait for fast troop healing.

I would irrigate south towards Bursa for faster pop growth.

I would upgrade chariots and some warriors.

And now I will install the new CivAssist II and have a look at the save.

 

[Tone]

And now I will install the new CivAssist II and have a look at the save.

Just be careful when using the production tab...

CivAssist doesn't always seem to get production right - Izmit is actually Sword in 3 with no overrun rather than Sword in 4 with 6 overrun.

...and it was also misjudging the timing of our GLib build if you remember. (Does anyone know if ainwood is already aware of this problem or should I let him know?) I'm also glad that I installed the latest version before selling some of my culture builds in my first milk run. v.1975 now calculates predicted dates for non-standard sized maps correctly.

Having said all of this though, it is a really cool tool. I particularly like the options when you right click on the map and I keep finding things I never noticed before. I continue to be impressed every time I use it.

 

[Furiey]

There's actually a new version available v1982 that keeps the planned cities and sorts a few other issues. I too keep finding stuff each time I use it - found the combat calculator this morning!

 

[Tone]

Looks like only only downloaded v1975 the day before the updated version was made available Thanks for the info, Furiey!

 

[Furiey]

750 BC (Turn 0):. Put Sogut on 2 plains rather than Coast and Sheep, giving Sheep to Great Library. Forbidden Palace in 14. Change Aydin and Bursa to Catapults, Izmit to Galley (Sogut can build a Settler after 2 Warriors). Move Warrior out of AI bait (almost forgot). Still maintain +36gpt. Press button.

IBT: Arab Galley appears 2 S of Bursa; One Indian Galley goes N, another reaches NE of our irrigating Worker; another Indian Worker approaches Lahore – looks like it’s going to be connected by the time we invade ; Zulu Galleys move anticlockwise (all of them I think, not sure about that though); Indians start the Great Wall

730 BC (Turn 1): Sogut: Warrior> Warrior; Izmit: Galley>Horse; Worker NW of finishes mining and starts a road; give Izmit the Goats, and a plains rather than a hill and FP to get 10spt with no growth; Uskadur has the FP to give growth and Worker in 1; Great Library has the hill to give FP in 12; fortify new Warrior and injured Sword in Sogat; move Elite Sword by Izmit NW and fortify (not sure where the Indians will land, hopefully he’ll be able to cover E and W there; Workers in jungle chop; Worker on hill goes to Bursa to clear remaining jungle; Both Galleys and Southern Swordsmen wait.

IBT: Zulu continue anticlockwise; Indians drop a Warrior by Izmit, another Indian Galley appears from the N, Arab Galley goes clockwise.

710 BC (Turn 2): Sogut: Warrior>Settler; Uskadur: Worker>Worker; Cowtown South, Barracks>Spear; Elite Sword attacks 3/3 Warrior and dies our first loss to the AI? Izmit Vet Sword attacks now 2/3 Warrior and wins with no damage – Furiey joins Renata and Sabre on the scoresheet; both India and Zulu know construction, so we should get it next IBT; Galley sets sail from Bursa; the Iron is now connected so upgrade the 3 Vet Warriors; new Uskadur worker joins South Beach Worker; Worker 2SE of Cowtown North roads; Izmit Galley waits; 2 Southern Swords wait; leave the Iron unpillaged for now as Sogut is building a Settler, Iron Worker joins Worker about to start on last jungle by Bursa; put a Horse from Sogut in Izmit to stop it rioting and move a Sword towards there aswell.

IBT: Indian Galley rounds the top of our continent and heads S (AI bait?); Indian Galley that dropped off the Warrior last turn heads clockwise; the Zulu Galleys head anti-clockwise (Izmit also?); we get Construction from the Great Library (select Currency, not that it matters);

690 BC (Turn 3): Antalaya: Spear>Library; Workers by Bursa start on the last jungle; take another Sword from Sogut to Izmit, until we need to gather them I’d rather have them closer to where needed; new Antalaya Spear to Aydin; Sword to Cowtown South on the way to reinforce troops in ambush at AI bait; S Warriors and Izmit Galley wait.

IBT: We spot a Greek Galley; Zulus want to talk, but we don’t want peace; Zulu galleys go N between India and Zulu; a second Indian Galley rounds the top of our continent and heads S (to AI bait?); Zulu complete the Great Lighthouse in Bapedi; Americans complete the Great Wall in New York.

670 BC (Turn 4): Izmit: Horse>Sword; Workers that have completed chopping Jungle road so one can pillage Iron next turn; change Bursa back to Galley as the first Galley is 1 tile from Sogut now, and the forest chop would be wasted if it went to Bursa; Izmit Galley heads for Sogut; but we must declare on Persia now, they are backward, have only 4 cities, but have both Horses and Iron ; they don’t have much gold either, but we exchange CoL for World Map and 17 gold, and then declare War. We have the World Map. Have to stop for the night so upload the map for all to see. Next day: shuffle troops to upgrade the Chariot, and a Regular Warrior in each of Cowtown. Izmit, Antalya and Sogut; switch Uskudar to Settler, Izmit to a Horseman (will build Warriors in 1 when the Iron is disconnected again); put Sogut back on the Oysters now the Zulu Galley has moved.

IBT: despite putting an Antalaya citizen on the Forest the chop is returned to Bursa – good job I changed back to a Galley; Zulu Galleys return back towards Izmit, one Indian Galley continue down the coast as do the Arab and Persians; the other Indian Galley turns round again.

650 BC (Turn 5): Sogut: Settler >Sword (to be a Warrior once the Iron is disconnected); Aydin: Catapult>Catapult; Cowtown North: Granary >Harbour; Bursa: Galley>Library; Settler S; Catapult to Sogut; Workers road 2S of Great Library, 3rd Worker mines SE of Great Library with the 2 Workers already there; Worker starts to chop Forest by Cowtown; Worker on chopped plains by Bursa irrigates; Workers near iron – one mines, the other starts roading the pillaged the iron; Bursa Galley reaches Sogut; new Bursa Galley starts the journey; Izmit Galley retreats back to Izmit.

IBT: 1 Zulu Galley drops a Warrior and Archer by Izmit; an Indian one drops a Spear and Sword by Izmit; Indian, Arab and Persian Galleys converge on AI Bait; Lahore is connected by road

630 BC (Turn 6): Sogat: Warrior>Warrior; AI Bait: Catapult>Catapult; Regular Sword defeats Zulu Vet Warrior; another Regular Sword defeats the Archer (both redlined, but glad I upgraded them); Vet Sword defeats the Indian Spear for no damage; another Vet Sword loses to the 3/3 Indian Sword promoting it to 2/4; Vet Horse finishes the job (5 kills for 2 losses), move a few more troops down to Izmit; hope we’re going to have enough troops for the landings at AI Bait (I hope there’s not 2 units in each of those Galleys); Workers mine 2S of Great Library, 2 move to chop the jungle 2SE of Uskadur; Catapult wounds a Zulu Galley by Sogut, hopefully it may delay another invasion there briefly, block tiles needed for 10spt in Izmit so production not messed up.

IBT: Persians drop an Immortal by AI bait; Arabs want to talk, but we don’t want Peace; neither Arabs or Indians drop anything at AI Bait; Indian Galley enters Lahore as do Settler and Spear;

610 BC (Turn 7):: Sogut: Warrior>Warrior; Izmit: Horseman>Warrior; found Epulu in the Jungle; Veteran Sword defeats Regular Immortal (6 for 2); Workers chop by Epulu and road by South Beach; fortify injured troops to heal.

IBT: Persians go home; Arabs continue clockwise past AI Bait, Indians continue past anti-clockwise.

590 BC (Turn 8): Sogut: Warror>Spear; Izmit: Warrior > Spear; Cowtown South: Spear>Spear; the Iron is connected, upgrade the Veteran Warriors and some more Regulars; shuffle troops – not sure where the Indians and Arabs are going; 2nd Galley reachs Sogut; Workers start chopping South of Epulu.

IBT: Arabs continue clockwise past AI Bait, Indians continue past anti-clockwise.

570 BC (Turn 9): Final Galley reaches Sogut (making the 3 we need), bit more troop shuffling.

IBT: French unload 2 Archers S of Cowtown North; Indians want to talk, but we don’t want Peace; 2 Indian Galleys start down from the North, the one in the S goes one S and then 1 N; 1 Persian Galley disappears into the fog to Persia, another appears in its place.

550 BC (Turn 10): Sogut: Spear>Spear; Uskudar: Settler>Worker; Izmit: Spear>Spear; Veteran Sword in Cowtown S defeats first Archer; Regular defeats 2nd Archer (8 for 2).

Treasury: 122 gold, +26 gpt, Currency in - (0%)

Post-turn: The Worker on the forest used by Izmit was going to road for commerce, not chop as the shields are needed to maintain 10spt. There’s a Settler E of Uskadur going for SSE of AI Bait. We get 2 Catapults next turn – do we have enough troops for the invasion? Troops are somewhat spread about as although the Persians went straight for AI Bait, the Zulu and Indians have gone for Izmit (and sailed about aimlessly a lot, the Arabs have gone for Cowtown. The Sword fortified on the mined grass between Sogut and Izmit is to prevent any landing there as it will mess up Izmit’s 10spt. 2 more potential city sites are on the Incense hill in the N and W of the fish on the Southern peninsula to allow us to cut the corner if we need to. Once Great Library has completed the Forbidden Palace (in 3), Sogut can have the Lambs back and with the forest on the Indian continent and another plains at size 9 it will make 15spt after corruption – that will probably need more lux though. Hopefully the increased production will finally give us our Worker in 2 here - I haven't given this priority, choosing to get Izmit to 10spt and FP a turn or 2 earlier instead. I haven’t started to research as the gold was going on upgrades – those Regulars saved the day, pity I didn’t have a single promotion, but the tech pace seems very slow, we’re probably going to have to do it ourselves if we want to get our of the ancient age.

Killboard:
Furiey – 8
Sabre - 3
Renata - 1

Tone (up next)
Keath
Renata
tao
Sabre
Furiey (just played)

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