SGOTM7 - Team tao

[Renata]

We can only move two tiles due to the differential naval movement. It'll still work as I described above if we choose our moment so there are no enemy galleys within two tiles on the first turn. Maybe fortify one extra galley in the channel in case there's a galley lurking in Lahore itself.

Renata

 

[tao]

We can only move two tiles due to the differential naval movement.

IIRC if we build a harbor in Sogut, things change. a harbor tile always is 1 movement point. But do we need the harbor already?

 

[Renata]

Ah, I get it.

It's a bit hard to make plans when we still don't really know how hard we'll be hit or when. We could start trying to collect the necessary units in the Sogut area as long as other areas are reasonably secure. A harbor will probably take five turns to build.

I was thinking, too, that maybe one of the Cowtowns should get a granary instead of a barracks if it can get up to five or so uncorrupted shields at size 5-ish -- a settler every six turns thereafter should keep up with demand pretty nicely. Uskudar just lacks the shields to do the job in despotism -- it's much better suited to workers.* And Sogut's high production is too valuable to tie it up with settlers all the time anymore -- it's the only city we have not counting Great Library that can currently pull more than ten spt.

*And speaking of Uskudar, if it fails to build the worker next turn, that doesn't necessarily mean the 2-turn worker farm is out of the question -- there may be other ways to arrange things, like going +3/+7 food or such. That last hill between Uskudar and GL will need to be mined in any case.

Renata

 

[Tone]

I was thinking, too, that maybe one of the Cowtowns should get a granary instead of a barracks if it can get up to five or so uncorrupted shields at size 5-ish -- a settler every six turns thereafter should keep up with demand pretty nicely. Uskudar just lacks the shields to do the job in despotism -- it's much better suited to workers.* And Sogut's high production is too valuable to tie it up with settlers all the time anymore -- it's the only city we have not counting Great Library that can currently pull more than ten spt.

I'm not sure that we have the need to produce a high volume of settlers anymore. We have taken all the prime sites and the rest will need a lot of development before we will gain the benefit. (Maybe the AI will help clear the jungle in the meantime by bringing over some settlers? ) I therefore agree on Sogut switching to military and it will help give us new towns by providing us with the muscle to take them from others! Perhaps settlers can be built 'in the mix' with other units as these jungle towns will be unlikely to pull more than 1sh/turn for quite a while, at least until we get the FP built.

@tao: I'm pretty sure that you don't need a harbour to qualify for the 1mp benefit but we should check it out with a save from a previous game first. Lahore looks very tempting for a first target-I'm sold on this one.

 

[Keath]

IIRC if we build a harbor in Sogut, things change. a harbor tile always is 1 movement point. But do we need the harbor already?

This must be my cue. Sogut is a natural for a harbour, IMHO. It can produce a veteran galley in three turns or less, is located in a central spot for our invasion plans and can use the 2f2g coastal tiles to advantage.

This is a beauty setup! Nice work, Renata. Militarily we are strong to Arabs and average to India and Zulu. India looks like a good target to me.

 

[Renata]

@ Tone -- we'll need more cities shortly for the unit support, especially if we plan to revolt to Monarchy any time soon. And we'll need to replace a number of captured cities.

Renata

 

[Sabre]

Everything looks good to go - our little empire is really shaping up!
1 - 975bc: Great Library builds the Great Library begins temple
South Beach founded - begins warrior (switching to catapult next turn)
SB is going to be producing just 1 shield for a while, workers would be sloppy (not to mention Uskudar is handling them nicely) and a barracks would take forever so I opted for the 20-turn catapult
South warrior finds end of peninsula and spots Persian border to south
Switch Cowtown North to granary - it looks like it should produce 5 shields at pop 5 with a little more terrain work

ibt - The Great Library gets to work: Mysticism, Mathematics, Map Making, Horseback Riding and Polytheism

2 - 950bc: Uskudar builds worker - worker
Switch Antalya from horse to spear to minimize waste
Switch Bursa from temple to galley
Switch AI Bait from barracks to catapult
mm Great Library bg to Aydin since GL doesn't need the 13th shield
Move new worker to mine near Uskudar - it "should" choose a mined hill on pop growth thus enabling the 2-turn worker
No sign of Zulu galley to the south so they may be exploring Persia
mm Sogut bg to Izmit

3 - 925bc: Sogut builds barracks - swordsman
mm Great Library to cut 1 turn off temple build after the chop
ibt - Our first enemy invasion! Arabs land 1 archer next to Antalya - we will probably need spears to make the bait town work

4 - 900bc: Swordsman kills archer taking 2hp damage and Sabre joins Renata on the killboard!
mm Sogut from forest to oysters after growth
none of the known AI have Lit yet and Arabs still lack Math
Arabs at 4 towns, India has 7 and Zulus have 6 - not exactly powerhouses

5 - 875bc: Great Library builds temple - catapult
Uskudar builds worker - worker
Antalya builds spearman - spearman
Zulus have 2 galleys heading south
Drop lux to 20%, gaining 6gpt
Sogut can build 1 Warrior/turn and we are bringing in 41gpt so I pillage iron to take advantage

6 - 850bc: Sogut builds swordsman - warrior
We can now buy contact with Vikings and America from all known civs and we will be getting Philosophy next turn
We have no contact with these civs yet (or Persia for that matter) so still no new wars

ibt - Great Library gives us Philosophy

7 - 825bc: Sogut builds warrior - warrior
Great Library builds catapult - forbidden palace (17t after mm)
Izmit builds library - settler
Upgrade chariot to horse in Sogut

8 - 800bc: Sogut builds warrior - warrior
Aydin builds horseman - warrior
Bursa builds galley - galley
Upgrade chariot to horseman in Aydin
India gains Code of Laws and Construction

ibt - India lands 2 warriors outside Izmit

9 - 775bc: Sogut builds warrior - swordsman (switching back to warrior after pillaged iron again)
Uskudar builds worker - worker
Antalya builds spearman - spearman
3 warriors upgraded to swords in Sogut
Iron pillaged
Swordsman kills India warrior, losing 1hp and promoting to elite
Swordsman kills 2nd warrior, losing 2 hps
Twice now the invasions have messed with production timing
mm Izmit and Great Library to get settler out in 2 turns with only 2 food waste
It costs 1 turn off forbidden palace, but we may get that back after the settler build - haven't done the math

ibt - Code of Laws given by Great Library

10 - 750bc: Sogut builds warrior - warrior

Notes - Izmit finishes it's settler next turn and the olives can then be returned to Great Library - we can still get that fp turn back, hopefully that remains the case next turn.

Our attack force in Sogut is up to 4 swords, 1 warrior, 2 horsemen and 1 catapult.

Antalya is building spears to garrison our towns - hopefully they will start targeting our bait town but so far that hasn't been the case as both attacks have targetted towns garrisoned with a sword.

Izmit can start military next, we need more cats, spears and probably a few more horses. Izmit has a barracks - do we want to build cats there anyway?

The galley built by Bursa is still there. Mongols have had several vet galleys in the area and I was waiting for a safer moment to move. We may need to use Sogut to build a few galleys if getting out of Bursa becomes a problem. In 5 turns Sogut should be able to build 2-turn galleys should we need to. I'm not sure how long we want to upgrade warriors, we are probably ok for a little while yet but our gold will start to dwindle as our forces grow.

Uskudar "should" become a 2-turn worker farm once we get them working an irrigated fp again.

Once Cowtown North grows to pop 5 I think we can get 5 shields there and get some more settlers built to boost our allowed units total.

We still do not have contact with the other AIs. We are strong compared to the 3 AIs we know The others still don't have horses and India is still the only civ with iron. India and Zulus have 7 towns, while Arabia is the runt with just 4. We shouldn't have any problems taking these three on.

One of the Indian galleys to the north dropped off the warriors, the other may be another attack. I'm not sure what the Zulu galleys are up to as they have been wandering around in that straight to the east. The Arabs have been MIA since their feeble attack.

I've had the two swords in the south patrolling the jungle in case someone decided to land - still no sign of Persian units - a good thing in my opinion as the south is far less protected then the north right now.

What should be done with the extra reg warriors pulling mp duty? If we place a spear in most of the towns we'll have a surplus of mps that are eating up support costs? Maybe 1 shield adjustments for mm purposes? Maybe swap a few with the patrols in the south? They wouldn't help with an immediate counterattack but they could provide an alert for a real attack force to get moving.

Killboard:
Sabre - 3
Renata - 1

Roster:
Furiey (up next)
Tone
Keath
Renata
tao
Sabre (just played)

The save

(edited for readability)

 

[Renata]

Hey, at least they're landing on the flat ground so far. I'll take it.

More comments later.

Renata

 

[Furiey]

Got it, I won't be able to even look until tomorrow though.

I notice the green borders in the South , so now we know where they are, do we want to contact Persia? Another Civ to get Great Library techs from, or pick of what we see now first, after all we'll get the techs sooner or later, and maybe better Persia later when the Immortals are past their prime.

 

[tao]

Yes, we definitively make good progress.

I would not complete the settler in Izmit. It is a rank_1 town with slow growth. Better to use Sogut: work irrigated plain instead of water, and build warrior, warrior, settler.

We need more catapults and horsemen.

I would NOT contact Persia - the later the better. Maybe they war against Arabs instead.

Shouldn't we move the warrior out of Al Bait to make it a real honeypot for the AIs?

I'm still very much in favor of a library in Antalya, maybe also Bursa.

Keep the warriors. We will need the (upgraded) once the Persians, etc. start coming. And we are not that far from Feudalism allowing upgrade to Axemen.

 

[Sabre]

Actually I chose Izmit for a settler because it was at it's max pop 6 and had access to two irrigated fp (Uskudar doesn't need either of the fp within Izmit's range) so was a high growth town able to recover quickly. If we choose to build something else, I won't argue though.

 

[tao]

Actually I chose Izmit for a settler because it was at it's max pop 6 and had access to two irrigated fp (Uskudar doesn't need either of the fp within Izmit's range) so was a high growth town able to recover quickly. If we choose to build something else, I won't argue though.

I suggest to stablelize Izmit at pop 6 and work the (to be mined, maybe not roaded) iron mountain for the shields.

PS: We have nearly enough galleys, but not enough cats. Build catapults first, because they are useful while we build ships!

 

[Renata]

It's not a good idea to build a settler out of Sogut within the next five turns -- it would drop to size 6 and have to refill the granary upon re-growth to size 7. I don't have anything against completing the settler in Izmit, either, personally.

Agreed on getting some more cats built, but we really don't have *any*galleys right now if that one stays stuck in Bursa.

Regarding the invasion:
I assume we'll be landing on that forest tile two tiles from Sogut and two tiles from Lahore. As of right now, there's no road on the tiles next to it. And India lacks horses. So if that situation holds up, we will not be attacked the first turn. Most likely, the AI will shift a bunch of units out of Lahore to the other forest tile and maybe a few to the sheep.

Not sure what to do with that information, but just wanted to point it out.

Renata

 

[Furiey]

Sogut is due to grow in 5, therefore building Warrior, Warrior, Settler would time the Settler with growth to size 9 dropping it to size 7 rather than 6. I would prefer to do this and keep Izmit at 6.

Izmit could build a Galley in 1 (stuck in Bursa is no good to us - we could change the current Galley build in Bursa to Catapult and at least then use the Galley to pick off Galleys injured by the Catapult). Izmit, needs 10 shields after corruption to build a Galley in 3, this can be done and keep it balanced at 6 by using the mountain goats used by Uskudar. Then we just have to keep Uskudar building Workers in 2!

Bursa, Aydin and Cowtown North are all at fliprisk.

 

[Renata]

On, and re: contact -- I'm sure the AIs will be out and about soon enough; we don't have to go looking for them. When they do come, though, remember we need a world map. But don't trade literature. I've found in a few games that when I manage to build the Great Library before anyone else has literature, it can delay the AIs researching it for a long long long time. In the Korea COTM11 AW game I played, they didn't research it themselves until about four techs into the middle ages. That can only be to our benefit.

It might be safe to move the galley out of Bursa. We can presume those Zulu galleys are loaded, and they won't attack until they've dropped off their cargo. See where they head next turn, maybe?

Warrior does need to be moved out of AI Bait, or it has no chance of working until everywhere else has spears.

More again later.

Renata

 

[Keath]

PS: We have nearly enough galleys, but not enough cats. Build catapults first, because they are useful while we build ships!

We only have one galley, a regular. This is not enough.

Could someone explain to me why we prefer to invite the AI to land at our bait town and attack them after they have arrived? They might not play our game and offload in the jungle where it will be a long and difficult task to remove them. Wherever they land we have to kill them one-on-one with poor odds if they are fortified in the jungle.

If we used cats to bombard the galleys before they offload, then use a vet galley to attack the weakened ones, we have good odds and one 30 shield unit has the ability to remove 1 galley (30s) and say 2 spears (40s). That's 70s risking a 30 shield ship. These are the best numbers we will get in this game. So I am baffled by this overwhelming decision by the team.

One query though: I have never had a leader result from an elite boat win. Is it possible to get a GL from navy?

This is the last time I'll mention navy but wouldn't it be ideal to place a couple of galleys at choke points and prevent the AI galleys from entering our space? Even during our invasion such a tactic would guarantee a safe landing. Any extra boats will give us good service right up til Magnetism. Any wounded boats can recover in one turn in a nearby harbour. It looks like a good strategy to me.

Sorry to be such a pain.

 

[Renata]

We only have one galley, a regular. This is not enough.

Could someone explain to me why we prefer to invite the AI to land at our bait town and attack them after they have arrived? They might not play our game and offload in the jungle where it will be a long and difficult task to remove them. Wherever they land we have to kill them one-on-one with poor odds if they are fortified in the jungle.

The bait town *will* work. You're going to have to trust me on this, as I've used them before. The warrior needs to be moved out immediately -- that may be enough in itself to draw them there provided every other town is kept defended. (Furiey should know within her first few turns, based on what happens with the visible Zulu and Indian boats.) It may be the case that we'll need to stick a spear in every other town first; I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

If we used cats to bombard the galleys before they offload, then use a vet galley to attack the weakened ones, we have good odds and one 30 shield unit has the ability to remove 1 galley (30s) and say 2 spears (40s). That's 70s risking a 30 shield ship. These are the best numbers we will get in this game. So I am baffled by this overwhelming decision by the team.

I still agree with you in the main, but we don't have cats yet. *Right now*, attacking regular spears, archers and warriors with vet or elite swords on flat ground gives us much better odds of the attacking unit surviving to fight again. Everywhere the AI has landed so far has been flat ground. If they do land in the jungle before the bait town is successfully set up, we defend with spears rather than attacking for better odds unless they can be coerced to move into the open.

Once we have a critical mass of catapults, things will change, and I personally do want boats by then, because taking out boats is the surest way to hurt the AI short of taking their cities. Even just a few catapults will start to help, though, because boats that are hit will often turn back, keeping any units on them out of the fight for a long time.

One query though: I have never had a leader result from an elite boat win. Is it possible to get a GL from navy?

Nope.

This is the last time I'll mention navy but wouldn't it be ideal to place a couple of galleys at choke points and prevent the AI galleys from entering our space? Even during our invasion such a tactic would guarantee a safe landing. Any extra boats will give us good service right up til Magnetism. Any wounded boats can recover in one turn in a nearby harbour. It looks like a good strategy to me.

Might be useful at some point. If we put them in the wrong place, though, we might force the AIs to drop off where we don't want them to. And blockades would get attacked, at not-awful but less-than-ideal odds of winning, and only by empty enemy boats, so we wouldn't even have the good effect of taking out land units along with them.

Renata

 

[Furiey]

Bait towns do work, plus the AI tends to land in the same place all the time anyway - even if that's halfway round the world. In the current democracy game, the AI is doing just that, it is allowing us to keep a few forces back in our core whilst the majority are at the front attacking. OK, that game is Emperor and Pangea with a good choke point so we wouldn't want to leave our core so undefended, but it is ridiculous watching the Galleys and Dromons sailing halfway round the continent just to land in one spot!

 

[Tone]

We only have one galley, a regular. This is not enough.

agreed!

If we used cats to bombard the galleys before they offload, then use a vet galley to attack the weakened ones, we have good odds and one 30 shield unit has the ability to remove 1 galley (30s) and say 2 spears (40s). That's 70s risking a 30 shield ship. These are the best numbers we will get in this game. So I am baffled by this overwhelming decision by the team.

I think this is a good defensive strategy but surely our primary aim is to attack the other civs. As soon as we get onto the other continent we will need to weather the storm in our outpost and for that we need land units. We also want to farm some GLs. The two can complement each other though and perhaps we need to consider this.

One query though: I have never had a leader result from an elite boat win. Is it possible to get a GL from navy?

I read somewhere that it wasn't possible and I've never seen or heard of one so I'd say 'no!'

Sorry to be such a pain.

One of the main reasons that I enjoyed the last game was the amount of discussion that went on. I think that it is a primary strength that we argue our individual theories to the maximum but play to an agreed strategy. IMHO there is no need to apologise as there was no clear consensus on this issue.

 

[Renata]

I have a radical idea I want to float by you all, that we may be able to implement at various levels of 'radical'.

What does anyone think about maybe halting offensive war at some point, possibly even avoiding offensive war at all for a long time? Normally, in a high-level AW game, this would be suicide. But a few observations.

India, Zulus and Arabia all have fewer cities than us, not more. Only one new city has been built in the last 30 or more turns by the AI. Odds are, therefore, that that's all they have room for. I doubt any of the civs we haven't met are much better off given the pattern so far. Only one of those three civs has iron, and none have horses, which means the toughest units we will face until Nationalism are MIs, longbows and muskets. We probably have the production capability on our home island to hold off landings indefinitely, particularly once we've built up enough catapults and galleys to start sinking ships.

Our number one priority long term has to be to get to Dragoons. Even riflemen won't be able to stand up to them, and if we hurt the AIs badly enough by killing their units, they may not be able to research that far with any speed. So at some point, we're going to have to hit the research accelerator to military tradition anyway, and the faster we get there, the better.

Given all of that, the most radical thing to do would be not to invade at all, just to button up with the minimum possible support costs, build infrastructure, sink ships, and get to military tradition at best possible speed, even if that means to turn on research while the Great Library is still in effect.

Less radical would be to take on India now as planned, fortify both islands, *then* go all out for MT. Anything more than that, and the Great Library will probably be obsolete anyway.

Thoughts? Based on the score graphs, it does appear that most of the leading (in terms of turns played) teams are going for invasions, as all of the graphs have made a bit of an upturn in recent years. (Durkz, Xteam, Peanut -- forget Wacken; I think they're playing a different game from the rest of us peons ) But the upturns aren't very steep, so the invasions can't be that easy.

Renata