SGOTM7 - Team tao

[Renata]

I'm on turn 6. Karachi and Delhi have been razed and replaced, and I have forces on their way to both Bangalore and Madras. There's next to no fight left in the Indians. No landings at AI Bait yet this turn. Two Persian galleys in the area, but I redlined one and sent it home, and redlined and sank the next.

Renata

 

[Renata]

Preturn: Switch Bursa to galley to avoid wasting a bunch of shields. MM some. Wibble about trying to build HG, decide to decide in four turns.

IT: Sword comes from Delhi and attacks our horse that's covering the catapult and wounded sword; horse retreats. Cowtown North harbor-courthouse. Epulu cat-barracks. Zimbabwe completes the Hanging Gardens

130 BC (1): Three cats take one hit-point off spears in Karachi. Top defender is a reg spear.
Vet sword loses, elite sword wins, vet sword wins and we capture the town. (2-1) Karachi is razed, one worker captured. Iznik built in Karachi's place.

IT: Aydin library-cat. Bursa galley-galley. Switch some tiles, switch Epulu to cat.

110 BC (2): The Persian galley approaching AI Bait turned around last turn. Move the cats out in case that's causing the problem. Move units toward Delhi.

IT: Persian galley heads back. Ok then. Izmit horse-aqueduct. Borders expand at New Calcutta. AI Bait cat (from forest chop)-cat.

90 BC (3): Move units, switch tiles, all that good stuff.

IT: Sword comes out of Delhi and takes a hit point off one of our vets before dying. 3-1. India drops a spear north of New Calcutta. Persian galley sails past toward Desert Beach. Ok then. Sogut market-horse. Uskudar settler-settler. Incense Hill galley-galley.

70 BC (4): Cats go 3 for 7 at Delhi, taking out city walls and two hit points. Another one takes a hit point off the spear by New Calcutta. Three more redline a Persian galley. Attack on Delhi next turn. Horse retreats against wounded spear, sword takes it out. 4-1. Zulus have *finally* hooked up their horses. Probably they're at their unit maximum and won't build many. Make a couple of minor purchases.

IT: Indian sword attacks and loses. 5-1. Great Library market-cat. Aydin horse-horse. South Beach Library-settler. Desert Beach galley-cat.

50 BC (5): We're at 67gpt. Go 3 for 3 against a Persian vet galley by Desert Beach. Sink it with the galley we just completed. 6-1. Cats at Delhi go 4 for 9, all for hit points. There are no more than three spears. Here we go ...
Elite sword against 2/3 spear, wins.
4/5 elite sword against 2/3 spear, wins.
vet sword against 2/4 spear, wins, and that's it. Hooboy that was easy. 9-1.
We get five slaves. Raze the city and move settler into position to resettle next turn. Send horse against an exposed sword; it wins 10-1.
Can't get a 20th shield in Great Library yet, switch to barracks.

IT: Sogut horse-horse. Bombay riots, not sure why. It was fine last turn. Unless it was me moving two units out of it? But it's only size 1 ... Well anyway. Antalya aqueduct-horse. Epulu cat-cat.

30 BC (6): Found Edirne in place of Delhi. Split forces toward Bangalore and Madras. Add a worker to GL and rush one shield -- barracks next turn, then will be at 20spt. Send the settler that just landed on the Indian island to that little tab of land on the SW coast that's RCP-5 from Edirne, since we don't need to raze anything else.

IT: We learn Republic. Zulu galley appears and heads toward New Calcutta/Sogut area. Great Library barracks-spear. New Calcutta cat-cat. Bursa galley-galley.

10 BC (7): Move units, etcetera. Spend 100g to rush library in Jungle Port.

IT: Zulus land an Impi by Lahore. Sogut horse-horse. GL spear-spear. Uskudar settler-cat. Aydin horse-horse. Lahore cat-cat. Cowtown South courthouse-cat. Jungle Port library-galley.

10 AD (8): Go 1 for 2 on the cats against the Zulu galley. Attack Madras:
Cats go 1 for 5, but hit the walls.
Vet sword wins against vet spear.
Vet horse loses, redlining reg spear.
Elite sword captures the town. Madras comes complete with barracks, aqueduct and granary.
Vet horse kills the Impi invader.
Found Istanbul.
13-2.

IT: GL spear-spear. Zulu galley appears south of Bursa.

30 AD (9):
Cats 2 for 5 versus Bangalore, one citizen and one hit point.
Against Bangalore:
vet horse gets hit by a defensive volley and loses, taking one hp from a reg spear.
vet sword dies redlining another spear (it promotes). Too bad I have no elites here.
vet sword kills spear
vet sword kills spear
vet horse dies to the killer spear, which promotes again.
kill the demon spear with our last attacker, vet horse, but there's still the archer. Next turn.
16-5.

IT: Sogut horse-galley. GL spear-cat. Antalya horse-horse. Epulu cat-worker.

50 AD (10):
Capture Bangalore (market+harbor) with a vet sword. 17-5. Ok, there's a surprise. India is not dead. They have no towns, so there must be a settler on a galley somewhere. I'll let the team discuss what to do with Madras and Bangalore, because I'm beat!

The units fortified in Madras and next to Bangalore have movement left. The galley in Bangalore has one move left as well. I've stripped a great deal of the defense from around AI Bait due to almost complete lack of pressure there. There are six cats, two galleys, and a couple of free vet swords in the area still, also a few more units currently fortified in cities that can reach the area in a single turn. So it should be fine unless a lot of boats show up at once. I've been gathering units in Antalya the last few turns, and there are a couple of galleys there. More units and two more galleys by Bangalore. If we get some more spears, we might be able to free up a handful more attacking units, but we have very good production right now. 20spt in GL, 17 or 18 in Sogut (I think can make 20 there once it's at size 12 with a couple more mines.) 10 in Antalya, Aydin and Izmit.

There is one settler in Antalya right now and another due in South Beach in a few turns. I had taken Uskudar off settler production, figuring we'd be able to keep Madras and Bangalore. If we decide not to, Uskudar can be switched back to build a settler in 2 to help replace the Indian towns.

I don't know about winning the competition, but as for winning the game, it's looking most excellent.

Have fun, Sabre.

Renata

Edit: Killboard update:
Keath - 28
Tao - 20
Furiey – 8
Sabre - 3
Renata - 1 +17 = 18 (although the galley was probably hiding a couple more )

 

[Keath]

Very nice! I'm absolutely surprised that we haven't seen any sign of the other two civs. This is becoming a great mystery.

(although the galley was probably hiding a couple more )

Remember what Gimli said: "It only counts as one!"

So there is a boat with an Indian settler aboard - that makes mystery number 2 - where did they go?

Time to get the Zulu! They have Great Wonders including the GLH, my precious.

 

[Renata]

There have been so few boats coming around, we may very well be able to get a galley safely to the Vikings if we care to try. I think it may very well be in our best interests now. Arabia and Persia are too small to pressure us much, and the Zulus will soon have better things to worry about than sending a bunch of galleys out. We need contact with unharassed AIs if we expect to get many MA techs out of them.

There *is* land north of America, but it doesn't appear to have been settled on. I think the edges of the American borders are still visible; in other words, no cities beyond that. But Sabre should double check. Maybe it's full of barbarians? Not sure. At any rate, I don't think we can count on catching sight of the missing Indian galley, although I could be wrong. My vote would be to replace at least Madras (unless we find the Indian settler in the meantime), because it's pretty large still, and it would be dangerous to hold for long enough to get rid of resistance and starve it down. Bangalore might be keepable. It's only size 2.

As soon as feudalism shows up, even if we haven't gotten engineering yet, I think we should push for Chivalry ourselves. If we *don't* pursue contact with the remaining civs, I think we should seriously consider researching even Feudalism ourselves. Not counting monotheism, the only tech the AIs have come up since Keath played is Republic, and that only a few turns ago.

One more thing, although I pointed it out up there somewhere -- Zulus do have horses hooked up now. But they probably won't be able to build many, and no swords, of course.

Renata

 

[Keath]

I heartily agree with meeting the other civs. They might know a tech or two to help out with what has to be the slowest tech race I've seen at this level.

There *is* land north of America, but it doesn't appear to have been settled on. I think the edges of the American borders are still visible; in other words, no cities beyond that.

Our map is pretty old - do the borders, new cities and city sizes change on our map without being updated? Maybe a dumb question but better ask one than be one, eh?

Edit: - I should have looked - I did - American borders include the island in the fog tp the north. And, of course the city sizes are updated. I'm larnin'.

 

[Renata]

We can see everything but terrain improvements (roads, mines, etc.).

Renata

 

[tao]

Excellent progress.

I would keep Madras and Bangalore but starve them down to pop 1. Wherever Ghandi builds his new capitol, it will be far away and we should gain culture on India fast.

I would do some irrigation for Great Library and Aydin to push them in pop, maybe even by joining a few workers. We now have nearly finished terrain improvement (I would road the Arabian jungle for future clearing) and also have quite a number of slaves.

Can't we reduce lux to 10% by some well-placed mps?

 

[Keath]

What about this for a plan:
- Take the forces near Bangalore and ferry them to the Zulu forests for a catapult attack on Bapedi
- send a force to capture Intombe.
- After Intombe an attack on Bapedi would give us the GLH and with differential movement we'd be able to explore effectively some of those suspicious sea tiles that disappear under the fog.

This would only take a few turns and by then we have at least one fresh galley to explore west. I'm starting to wonder if there might be a big bad monster brewing in the west. brrrrr....

If the Persians, Arabs, Indians and Zulu don't know many techs maybe it's because all of us are just too poor with all the fighting and too backward to be of interest to the mighty Vikings and Americans who control the west and are too busy colonizing.

Imagine pressing Return and having frigates, ironclads and galleons filled with Cavalry arriving offshore. :shakehead Scarey, eh?

 

[Renata]

Great Library is already using all irrigated flatland tiles except possibly one, and it's at 20spt exactly -- I wouldn't sacrifice that just to grow it faster. Worker joins would be fine.

I don't *think* a lux reduction is possible. I had it at 10% for a few turns, but then Sogut grew and I had to bump it up again. Sogut already had three MPs. It's possible I missed something though; Sabre can check. (I remember one turn only having two MPs there, and there was the ivory hookup part-way through, not to mention the marketplace completion.)

@ Keath --
There are no spears in Bangalore, so I wouldn't recommend using those units to land first. Perhaps land the Antalya units first and simply play defense for a few turns to draw Zulu forces, *then* land the attackers from Bangalore? I think it would take too long to get spears to Bangalore in any great number for that force to serve as the diversionary one, but if Sabre can figure out a way to do it, all the more power to him.

I doubt the Americans and Vikings are *too* strong -- if they were, we'd surely have heard from them by now.

If we do keep Madras and Bangalore, we need to station a few units outside to take over in case of flips. Madras has five resistors -- that's going to take a while.

Renata

 

[tao]

Great Library is already using all irrigated flatland tiles except possibly one, and it's at 20spt exactly -- I wouldn't sacrifice that just to grow it faster. Worker joins would be fine.

I would irrigate mined grass and join a worker to work an additional mountain.

I don't *think* a lux reduction is possible.

I think it is. Sogut can get a specialist/clown next turn; Cowtown North a warrior from Cowtown South.

 

[Renata]

I took a look at CivAssist this morning (sorry, Keath). I had been playing without it, since there's no trading to be done, but I got curious about the domination limit. If I remember right, the number of tiles needed for domination is only a handful less than the total number of land tiles visible right now. Now, coast does count toward domination, and there's a heck of a lot of coast on the map. But is there enough that we can assume there's not a largish island still out there in the fog somewhere? I'm not sure. It'd be fantastic if we could reach domination without having to invade America, because the Vikings are quite weak based on the size and number of their cities. That'd leave the Zulus as the last halfway tough opponent.

Does anyone have time to do a closer inspection of the map that we can see, to maybe get an estimate of exactly how much of it we'll need?

Based on the graphs, team Peanut is potentially the fastest that we can see, since their last visible save is 750 AD. That's sixty turns from now. Durkz has a save at 850 AD and XTeam at 950 AD. I'm not sure which of them might be finished and which still playing.

India took only about 25 turns to conquer from invasion to capture of the last city. We should be ready to invade the Zulus in another five at most, though Sabre might have to spend some cash to rush another couple of boats and/or units. If we can handle the Zulus and Arabia/Persia in about 20 turns each, we should have a good chance of winning this thing.

Renata

 

[tao]

Based on the graphs, team Peanut is potentially the fastest that we can see, since their last visible save is 750 AD. That's sixty turns from now.

I start thinking that the min research on engineering was an error. The AI is very weak in research - maybe we should have done feudalism.

I propose as follows:

a) continue min on engineering. (really?)

b) if we learn feudalism earlier than 5 turns before we learn engineering, start full speed on chivalry

c) in time before we finish engineering (or immediately on learning feudalism) build libraries in high-commerce cities (Sogut, Uskudar, etc.)

This way, we should learn feudalism plus chivalry in at most 30 turns (once we start doing it). Shall we do 17 more turns on engineering? Is this worth it ??????

And to strengthen us do some infrastructure asap:

1) harbor after aqueduct in Izmit

2) aqueduct in New Calcutta

3) market in Uskudar

Opinions?

 

[Renata]

Not sure about a market in Uskudar -- that town is just so darn useful building settlers, and settlers are going to be needed in droves before the end of the game, not just for replacing cities, but also for filling in territory. (Cheaper to build and cheaper to maintain than libraries, and necessary to get the maximum number of coastal tiles.) Is there any other town around that can do the job instead? Maybe one of the Cowtowns, now that they have (or almost have) courthouses? It's very crowded over there, anyway; it wouldn't hurt much to keep one of them at size 6 and under.

I want to keep infrastructure to an absolute minimum; we'll ultimately win this game with units, not buildings. That's not to say we need none; the harbor in Izmit is a good idea, I think.

More on the research later; I need to think about it.

Anyone seen Sabre in the last few days?

Renata

 

[tao]

Anyone seen Sabre in the last few days?

My buddy list says: "Last Activity: Jun 13, 2005 02:51 AM"

 

[Keath]

I think we need to get some contact(s). What would be the point of getting the GL if we don't intend to take advantage of free techs? The AI usually go for Feudalism and Chivalry before they go for Engineering so I'd stay with Engineering hoping to get Chivalry via the GL.

If nobody else has it they can't show up with knights and so far the military competition hasn't been that tough. Getting Eng has some other advantages even if it takes 17 turns while we wait for the AI to get their collective research together.

I think we'll have to do more than just conquering our known civs, therefore we'll need more units. The other option is to skip researching altogether but I think under the present circumstances we shouldn't second guess ourselves. Stick with the plan - keep a scientist working on Engineering and when we get it make a new decision based on what we find out. Then when we do get knights, the ability to cross rivers will be to our advantage.

Meanwhile build horses and save gold for updates.

 

[Sabre]

Sorry, been very very busy the last couple days. I've got the save and will look over your posts in a bit.

 

[Renata]

S'ok, no rush. I was just curious.

Renata

 

[Tone]

Let me be the last to offer congratulations on the amazing progress! I just hate it when there is a settler on a boat somewhere-flips anyone?

I think that I think (sic) that we should continue on min research now that we've started as Fued could pop up at any moment but on reflection it was probably a mistake not to go straight for Fued as knights will surely win this game. I was expecting contacts and an acceleration in tech rate-after all, this is Diety. In the back of my head is the nagging concern that it might be a mistake to not switch research now though as our contacts may be ages away from Fued. These are tough decisions and I'm sort of undecided. (I know that's not very helpful!)

 

[Renata]

I think at the very least we should rush the galley in Jungle Port and send it west. It's likely to survive to reach the Vikings; it only has to pass Persia, which doesn't have many galleys. Vikings aren't much threat to us now that we have decent numbers of cats; in fact, if we like, we could even shift the cats and boats by AI Bait eastward along the coast to try to pick off enemy boats sooner. At worst we'll have to defend Jungle Port, South Beach and Desert Beach.

How many turns would it take to research Feudalism if we went to the highest affordable research right now? More than it will take to finish Engineering, or fewer?

Renata

 

[Keath]

I wonder how different our experience is to the other teams? No doubt they've found out the same thing, small AI opponents who don't research much. Too bad, we probably will never find out what a Dragoon looks like.

If the team's opinion is to dump Engineering in favour of getting knights by researching I would reluctantly say okay. I started Engineering while in anarchy - what's one gold per turn worth, anyway? We should at least wait for Feudalism to show, though. The Arabs have a knight uu, so they will likely research it if they get the chance. I don't know how that might effect our decision except to put us at a slight disadvantage which might be neutralized if we had Engineering. Or maybe I'm just wishful thinking.

Should we have a vote?