SGOTM7 - Team tao

[Renata]

I wonder how different our experience is to the other teams? No doubt they've found out the same thing, small AI opponents who don't research much. Too bad, we probably will never find out what a Dragoon looks like.

You could always keep a save to play with after the game's over, make peace with everybody, and research the techs just to see.

If the team's opinion is to dump Engineering in favour of getting knights by researching I would reluctantly say okay. I started Engineering while in anarchy - what's one gold per turn worth, anyway? We should at least wait for Feudalism to show, though. The Arabs have a knight uu, so they will likely research it if they get the chance. I don't know how that might effect our decision except to put us at a slight disadvantage which might be neutralized if we had Engineering. Or maybe I'm just wishful thinking.

Arabia lacks iron. Persia has it, and will be able to upgrade spears once they have Feudalism, so I hope we have Chivalry by the time we're scheduled to deal with them.

Should we have a vote?

I want to know how many turns it would take to research Feudalism starting now before I put my 2 cents in.

Renata

 

[Sabre]

Looking at the save, I do want to make contact with the Vikings and Americans ASAP and I'll rush Jungle Port's Galley rather than Desert Beach's as that galley could reach the Vikings in 6 turns rather than DB's 9 turns.

Maxing out research (80% unless I can get the lux down - getting the Zulu furs would be great) we could get Feudalism in 9 turns and Chivalry in 8 or 9 turns. At max Engineering can be got in 10 turns from right now or 10 turns from scratch after a switch. Unfortunately we can't really afford to do max research at -76gpt. 40% (-4gpt) would take 18t each for Feud/Chiv and 50% (-31gpt) would take 13t each. We currently have 447g (minus 100 and change if I hurry a galley) +64gpt. 40% research would take 36t and leave us about where we are financially. 50% would break us right about the time we researched the first tech. Getting our lux to 10% would get the 50% research to -17gpt, which would be pretty close to what we could afford if I don't rush the galley.

Right now I could get 10% lux by getting a 3rd mp into Cowtown North and making 1 citizen in Sogut (working a sea tile) an entertainer costing us 2gpt. Getting the Zulu furs will be a big help. From those who fought vs India - how big a force will be needed to take pop 7 Hlobane?

Basically our choices are:
1 - Stay the course, save up gold for 17 turns and then run to Chivalry if we have to. This would include rushing a galley and contacting the other civs fast.

2 - 40% research on Feudalism/Chivalry (36t) and rush a galley to make contact in hopes of getting Feudalism faster and proceeding to Chivalry.

3 - 50% research with no galley rush (26t) and hope the other civs finally make contact with us.

This is a pretty big decision and I'm not really sure which way we should go. I guess if I were playing this on my own I'd probably stick with option one until Feudalism was discovered and then making a decision based on how close we are to Engineering.

edit - I guess my first paragraph about rushing the galley in Jungle Port depends on what we decide to do regarding research.

 

[Renata]

The 26-turn estimate is unsustainable, correct?

How about rushing the galley and taking those six turns for contact? If nothing's happened on the Feudalism front by then, or if the Vikings turn out to also be backwards, then at the very least we'll have saved up enough cash to more than pay back the galley rush, and we'd be able to run at a higher science rate, or maintain the same rate for longer. America looks to be about four turns further yet -- based on territory, they'd seem to have a slightly better chance to be further advanced. If by chance just one civ we know has Feudalism by the time we get to the Vikings, we could probably buy contact with America for pretty cheap in hope they also have Feudalism. For that matter, we could probably buy contact even if no one yet has Feudalism.

This is a tough topic. Ideally, we want Chivalry within the next 20-25 turns, not 30 or more. But given our miserable potential for research I'm not sure what options we have other than to hope the AIs come up with Feudalism for us. And our best hope for that lies with the civs that have both halfway respectable numbers of cities and haven't been bothered by being on war footing since the beginning of the game; namely, the Vikings and America. We also still have need for cash if we want to keep our invasions moving rapidly -- see below. That's not compatible with all-out research for 30 or more turns.

Re: Hlobane -- If you're able to first draw Zulu units south by landing units from Antalya, you'll probably be able to land by Hlobane relatively unmolested. In that case, I think the units currently by Bangalore should be enough. You'll need more galleys than usual for the Bangalore part, though, because it's a tile further. You'll only be able to reinforce from there half as often. Right now there are only four galleys in the area, two each in or next to Bangalore and Antalya.

There should be at least three turns between the invasions, to allow northern Zulu units to get far enough away they can't get back to attack the stack. And we don't currently have a settler for Hlobane, either.

The good(ish) news? Zulus are in Republic and flat broke -- they won't be able to whip anything.

Renata

 

[Sabre]

26 turns is sustainable (barely) if we get to 10% lux. We would be broke when we got there and I wouldn't be able to rush the galley, but afterwards we'd have the potential to make money quickly and upgrade piecemeal. I'll wait for more feedback and play tomorrow evening. I'm beat and I'm going to try and get to sleep early tonight (this heat is brutal!) so I don't think I could play much tonight anyway.

 

[tao]

a) As I said, deity AIs trade techs. Thus there is absolutely no reason at all to waste money rushing a galley going to meet Vikings and America.

b) Research will significantly quicken, if we build the libraries I suggested. They would be done in 3 turns.

c) I would not high-deficit research feudalism. With the libraries, we should get it in about 12 turns and another 12 for chivalry, still leaving us money for upgrades.

 

[Tone]

I would not high-deficit research feudalism. With the libraries, we should get it in about 12 turns and another 12 for chivalry, still leaving us money for upgrades.

There is little point in losing money on research that we will need for upgrades so agreed with first point. If your estimate is correct, and I assume you have calculated with tech costs and estimated when the library bonus kicks in for various cities, then I'm sold on switching asap.

As I said, deity AIs trade techs. Thus there is absolutely no reason at all to waste money rushing a galley going to meet Vikings and America.

I would have thought that AIs at Diety trade techs but I am also used to them searching out contacts as quickly as possible and that isn't happening. There are some aggressive civs out that way. Maybe Vikings and Persians are at war and the Americans have got dragged into it somehow. All of these wars could be reducing the spread of contacts and therefore the spread of techs but whatever is happening this is not my usual experience at this level. However to send a galley out that way will take some time and the delay is probably too much now.

I wonder how different our experience is to the other teams? No doubt they've found out the same thing, small AI opponents who don't research much. Too bad, we probably will never find out what a Dragoon looks like.

You could always keep a save to play with after the game's over, make peace with everybody, and research the techs just to see.

As another alternative, GOTM 19 was the Ottomans. Cracker's games were quite heavily modded but great fun to play IMO. You could always download the vanilla save for this game if you want to play a game from scratch that leads to getting Dragoons. Then again, we'd better only consider these options once we have the game won as we don't want to tempt fate...

 

[Renata]

Ack, I went back and looked at an autosave, and I think I was wrong about India. They have a city somewhere, just one. Calcutta. Must be on that island we can't see.

Some added incentive for exploring, IMO -- if that island's big enough to hide an American town or two plus an Indian one, maybe it'll help us get to domination without having to invade, say, the American home island.

@ Tao -- I understand what you're saying about Feudalism, but taking three turns out of our best cities to build infrastructure is three turns we're not building units -- it'll delay our invasion of the Zulus accordingly. Rushing the galley to go explore and keeping our fingers crossed is the only way I can see to keep moving ahead as fast as possible on both fronts.

I know that Deity AIs will trade tech like nobody's business, but they won't if the potential recipients are flat broke. The Zulus and the Arabs (and obviously India) are flat broke. They won't be able to buy anything until their current deals for Republic (which they bought from Persia three to four turns ago, from what I saw) run out. *Persia* may well be able to buy a tech, but if we meet no one else, that won't do us any good with respect to the Great Library.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm against rushing into research right now, because I don't want the delay in our attacks and the loss of spending money. I'd like to rush a galley and try to go for earlier Feudalism that way. But even if we don't, I'd prefer just waiting for Feudalism over turning on research before Chivalry, which would remove our ability to rush a harbor if we need one, for example.

@ Tone -- All the AIs we know have contact with the Vikings and the Americans, but neither civ has bought contact with us.

Edit @ Sabre -- That intended landing tile 2N of Antalya is also RCP-4 from Sogut. You could settle there, then raze whatever-the-heck town it is that's two tiles away; it doesn't have a harbor anyway.

Renata

 

[tao]

I know that Deity AIs will trade tech like nobody's business, but they won't if the potential recipients are flat broke. The Zulus and the Arabs (and obviously India) are flat broke.

Persia has 303g and that would be enough to buy feudalism (or engineering).

And once we are at war with America and Vikings, we need more troops to defend Al Bait.

 

[Renata]

Maybe a couple more cats and another galley for AI Bait if we go to war with two more civs. Now that we have some of each there, though, it should be straightforward to sink most of the approaching galleys before they get a chance to drop off. Zulus have extra movement and can hang out on the sea tiles, so they're really the only ones we should have to fight on land unless several galleys show up at once. And we'll see them coming, so we can divert new units to the area as necessary. I don't think an increased permanent garrison in the area will be necessary.

So you're suggesting we wait for Feudalism then turn on research toward chivalry ourselves? I can live with that; the only thing I don't want to do is take time to build libraries *now*, when we're on the verge of being able to invade the Zulus. If we can wait a few turns for galleys to complete and for Sogut to get to a more efficient 20spt, that'd be a better time to build a library there, anyway.

Renata

 

[tao]

Maybe a couple more cats and another galley for AI Bait if we go to war with two more civs. Now that we have some of each there, though, it should be straightforward to sink most of the approaching galleys before they get a chance to drop off.

That is NOT AT ALL how I would do it. We want them to drop units to be red-lined by our cats and then killed in order to fish for a Great Leader. Thus we need a few more horses and swords also.

 

[Renata]

The Persians only brought one boat there in my entire turnset. None from Arabia or the Zulus at all. They're just too weak. There's no point in leader-fishing there unless we do make contact, IMO. One shot every five to ten turns isn't going to do it, and I don't think it's worth holding back units that could be at the front for.

We have three elite swords at the moment, one in Antalya and two by Bangalore or heading there. Also an elite spear by Bangalore. The Zulus should have plenty of archers or damaged Impis/horses for them to play with -- each of them will probably get the chance to attack every few turns, which is better than we're going to do at AI Bait.

Renata

 

[Tone]

@ Tone -- All the AIs we know have contact with the Vikings and the Americans, but neither civ has bought contact with us.

Sorry didn't notice this. Is our contact worth so little or too much then?

 

[Keath]

I know that Deity AIs will trade tech like nobody's business, but they won't if the potential recipients are flat broke. The Zulus and the Arabs (and obviously India) are flat broke. They won't be able to buy anything until their current deals for Republic (which they bought from Persia three to four turns ago, from what I saw) run out. *Persia* may well be able to buy a tech, but if we meet no one else, that won't do us any good with respect to the Great Library.

@ Tone -- All the AIs we know have contact with the Vikings and the Americans, but neither civ has bought contact with us.

The Persians only brought one boat there in my entire turnset.

These are clues as to what is going on - the Persians, Arabs and Zulu don't have enough gold to make a deal - this would be especially true if the other civs are way ahead on techs. If Persia is at war with Viking/America that would explain why they are not attacking us and why we haven't seen any V/A AND Persian boats.

There is a galley with 3 turns left in Incense Hill. Rather than rushing a further away galley and sending it through 'shark infested' waters risking meeting Persians, why not risk this IH galley and send it west into the fog? It's risky, yes, but if we made it to an island without sinking, we'd be in great shape to answer all our questions.

Keep research going on Eng for now.
Go after the Zulu - if we did get the GLH then we'd have extra movement and sea capability to explore even more - we may find both Viking and American settlements and then the GL will get us at par.

We have to take some chances - why not one suicide run from Incense Hill?

 

[Tone]

What worries me is if this lone Indian city is in the fog above america. We'll always be at risk of flips and yet we won't be able to wipe them out easily. If there is a reasonably large landmass there that a number of civs have settled on it could be the same with the Zulu and Persians Maybe we need contact with the Vikings for an updated map?

 

[Renata]

The Zulus already have a visible city down by the Vikings.

I don't the think the reason that Persia is sending so few boats is due to war, necessarily. They only have four cities. How many units can they build? Similarly, I'm not sure the lack of contact purchases means much, either, because AIs never prioritize that as much as they should.

I still think we need to explore in the not-so-distant future, even if we don't spend money to rush a galley. (I don't much like the suicide idea, but we could send the next galley from Bursa unless Sabre needs it for troop transport, or the one after that, if he does.) We need to know how big that island is, because it would save us a ton of time if it does turn out we can bypass the main American island and still reach domination.

Renata

 

[Keath]

I think we should be able to figure something out from all these anomalies. It may give us our best plan as to how to proceed.

About war - FOR SURE, we should go after the Zulu now, the quicker the better. It has to be done and procrastinating won't get us anywhere. A leader would be sweet.

About techs - We have the GL. Let's make the best use of it. After Education we *might* need libraries depending on war progress.

About contacts - if we go after a contact we can find out:
1. The Americans and Vikings are just as wimpy as the rest - continue as planned, conquering our neighbours is the ultimate goal.
2. The A/V are miles ahead - the GL brings us up to date - this will happen anyway, so why sweat researching when we could build units? Again, continue conquering.
3. Knights - if we sacrifice gold to get Chivalry, we either have to build them from scratch or upgrade and then we need the gold we sacrificed in research.

We need to know how big that island is, because it would save us a ton of time if it does turn out we can bypass the main American island and still reach domination.

Again I go back to capturing the GLH as quick as we can. This could give us the edge necessary to find out if there is a shorcut to domination.

Why wouldn't the force near Bangalore work to head towards Bapedi? Land in the forest, move to the hill - good defence, we have one elite spear and several swords for protection. Get to the hill and then two or three turns of bombardment to soften them up - then converge and take the city meanwhile the forces from Antalya can land 8 units as a divergence and then as an attack to capture or raise Intombe. We even have a settler there to build 2N of Antalya.

Remember that defensive units are not that necessary if you are attacking - as I mentioned a long time ago, spears are NEVER built by the warmongers. If this plan has a fatal flaw I'd like to know what it is.

 

[Renata]

Why wouldn't the force near Bangalore work to head towards Bapedi? Land in the forest, move to the hill - good defence, we have one elite spear and several swords for protection. Get to the hill and then two or three turns of bombardment to soften them up - then converge and take the city meanwhile the forces from Antalya can land 8 units as a divergence and then as an attack to capture or raise Intombe. We even have a settler there to build 2N of Antalya.

They will work fine. Hlobane was mentioned as an alternative because it has furs and a harbor. Also, it'd arguably be more efficient to land at the northernmost city first and work south rather than to land in the middle, have to go north (while also defending any middle territory) then back south again. But if we collectively (or Sabre individually) decide that faster galley movement is needed sooner, there's no reason those units couldn't be directed to Bapedi instead.

I suggested to land near Antalya first by ~ 3 turns because the Antalya force has multiple spears whereas the Bangalore force has only one. This makes the Antalya force better able to absorb attacks without being forced to commit (and potentially lose) the more valuable swords and horses on defense. The Antalya force would draw attackers from all over Zululand, leaving the northern force to pick off its target of choice very efficiently -- it would probably only have to face ~ 3 Impis and maybe one or two offensive units.

Remember that defensive units are not that necessary if you are attacking - as I mentioned a long time ago, spears are NEVER built by the warmongers.

Even the warmongers build them in always war or if invading overseas on a high level, unless they have a decisive advantage in numbers or technology (or if they're planning a massive ROP rape to get their foothold). Which is not to say we should build more than are necessary to cover troop movement and garrison cities to keep the AIs headed elsewhere.

Renata

 

[Keath]

They will work fine. Hlobane was mentioned as an alternative because it has furs and a harbor.

Nice, but how long will it take to go after Hlobane compared to cutting the Zulu in half?

Also, it'd arguably be more efficient to land at the northernmost city first and work south rather than to land in the middle, have to go north (while also defending any middle territory) then back south again.

Our horses could pillage the connection between North and South and spoil their happiness.

But if we collectively (or Sabre individually) decide that faster galley movement is needed sooner, there's no reason those units couldn't be directed to Bapedi instead.

What do the others think?

I suggested to land near Antalya first by ~ 3 turns ....... -- it would probably only have to face ~ 3 Impis and maybe one or two offensive units.

Are they going to be that tough? Will they be able to make an effective attack against our cats, swords, etc. as we move toward Bapedi? We could send another group to get Hlobane and put them in a squeeze. There are cats, etc, near Erdine that could go after Hlobane and there are a few galleys around plus one nearing completion.

Even the warmongers build them in always war or if invading overseas on a high level

My lurker experience tells me different. Same with the GL - some players never build it, prefering to capture it. If we'd have known the AI was so weak, we could probably have done without it, too.

This is an important crossroads, methinks. What we decide now could be the decisive moment as to our success. I put these ideas forth as a bit of alternate thinking but there must be a plan in here that really rocks! Sabre has the reigns and his warmongering has been pretty creative.
@ Sabre what do you think? Give us the plan so we can all cheer you on!

 

[Sabre]

@ Sabre what do you think? Give us the plan so we can all cheer you on!

I've got a die sitting in front of me. Every decision I am faced with will be determined by odds - yes, even - no.

I've read the posts and have some ideas. I'm going to stick with minimum research for now and get a galley to the Vikings. Our contact has been available for too long and I don't like having those two civs out there not being crippled by a war economy.

I like Renata's 2-pronged plan. I've never been a fan of striking the enemy's center first unless I had overwhelming force - which we are lacking right now.

Getting the Lighthouse is important, but right now we are still fighting close to home and the benefits are lighter than they will be once we start going for the Arabs and beyond. It wouldn't even help much right now in contacting the Vikings as I plan to be there at about the same time I could land a force at Bapedi. I might take a chance on the suicide run, depends on what ole lucky says - odd or even???

Off to play.

 

[Furiey]

Sorry I've not been involved much in this discussion (work). Probably this is too late as Sabre is playing, and it reinforces what he says he will do anyway, but I would prefer not to strike directly into Bapedi. When we take the lighthouse we need to be able to keep it not get our forces cut off and surrounded in the centre of their power base. The two pronged approach will string out their forces giving us a chance to deal with them and not be overwhelmed, but still progress our conquest at a good pace.