shyuhe
Deity
Thanks for the comment Rusten!
Wheat/gold may also help discourage Bismarck from settling the stone/sheep/deer site too.
Short fun game (immortal)
- Thread starter shyuhe
- Start date
Thanks for the comment Rusten!
Wheat/gold may also help discourage Bismarck from settling the stone/sheep/deer site too.
FINALLY managed to open the save thanks to some more files from ras lol... Had a look... I don't like starting in the "middle" of a game lol but still tried to form some opinions. I'm sorry if you look for structure in this text in vain, just keep in mind; I did my best hehe... 
Finally, my thoughts:
Firstly, techs. I don't like these oracle plans... I would tech writing next for a quick library in moscow and a quick GS for quick Philosophy and quick Pacifism It looks like we hinduism is the only religion present on our continent by now (buddhism and judaism have been founded). This means we can safely adopt a religion (and we should if both AIs adopt hinduism). The next religion on the techtree is confucianism. COL is a tech with high priority on my list. I would tech writing > meditation > priesthood > monarchy > col. Probably around the time we get monarchy some AI will get IW and ABC and we can trade for IW. If we're first to CoL we prevent religious trouble and have a great trading chip for backfilling stuff like ABC, maths or even aest depending on what the AIs have for us.
Settling is tricky. There is a nice spot with 2 silk and fish towards biz - but we likely won't make it and lose the fish to biz anyway. Also there's the wheat/gold site. I'd go for that next, another source of gold gives us a trading chip (early resource trades help a lot in diplo) and adds a lot to our eco. I would put 2 cities in the land to the south with stone, sheep and deer, they don't hurry at all though. There is not much food and the sheep city can borrow 2 FPs from Moscow as needed and sharing the stone tile between the 2 cities is good imo.
How much we can expect to settle towards churchill is not sure. We don't know enough about the land up there and how far churchill is with settling. I think we should settle gold/wheat first then try to seal off lots of land. We can get great cities up there even if churchill puts down a few of his own. Also jungle slows down AI expansion so we should have time to get those gems and phants
I don't know why moscow built a rax... I'd build a granary there now and try to grow as much as possible to whip the Library there ASAP and start running the scientists. Right now we should switch it to the gold mine to avoid
and help push towards writing. Don't forget to put research down to 0% after we reach writing, be that now directly or via meditation... at least until we finish the library in moscow or even longer. Also, Novgorod should build a monument first instead of a granary.
The worker built in st pete is our second. The city is still size 1 so it should build a monument next to grow and then the settler to try and get the wheat/gold site. Afterwards it can grow more by building warriors (cheap
with HR) and pump out settlers/workers. This city neither needs a library nor a rax just now though a granary is surely not out of place
Moscow can also be set on settler/worker pump after it finished the library. As the cottages get built it should be whipped a bit less to start growing them. As we need to wait until we finish writing, moscow can fit in a worker before the library I think. We need lots of worker turns for those cottages on FPs and we plan on settling some more cities so we need those workers.
I don't like those 2 farms too much as they can't be worked by other cities and moscow has more than enough food already, mind you
Please remember to move a warrior to moscow as MP We have 5 atm. I'd fortify one in moscow, move one west for fogbusting, 2 up north for scouting and fogbusting and the last one east to scout biz' settling.
I must say I don't like novgorod's place too much... by the time we finally get chariots online most of the land is either settled or fogbusted and we can't really try to capture barb cities with chariots (no axes
).
We need to connect the gold to help moscow grow further without
It looks like churchill has lots of non-jungle land to settle. Good for us, gives us more time
Oh and wonder-wise; I wouldn't focus too much on any specific wonder. I don't like building wonders without the resources. We don't have marble so no GL... but this also means we can neglect aest/lit/drama until much later. The only wonder that I'd try to build is the AWat, especially if we manage to bulb philo early and settle the stone site sometime. There are a lot of wonders however that we can partbuild for cash to help maintain 100% research for a loooong time... SoZ, Chicken Pizza (ha-ha... I know this one is getting old), probably mids, ...
Generally, long-term, we focus on war on horsies, right? I'd prefer to strike with cuirassiers as they come much earlier than cossacks and likely attack biz as he isn't protective and likely builds some shiny wonders for us but that is too early to judge Just if it looks like he's our target we should focus our EPs on him so we eventually get to revolt a city...
As to how to get those horsies, cuirassiers have something quite nice: both WE and knights upgrade to them. This means we can part-build both before we get MT and gunpowder and quickly finish lots of cuirassiers without needing to spend money on upgrades (I'd still do some upgrades) and whip out even more once the queues are empty. We are industrious and should easily get lots of forges in place to quickly whip out an army of shiny cuirassiers
Ouch this DID get quite long I hope my ideas make some sense, but again, this was the first time I got to look at the save... Hope you enjoyed it anyway ha-ha
Finally, my thoughts:Firstly, techs. I don't like these oracle plans... I would tech writing next for a quick library in moscow and a quick GS for quick Philosophy and quick Pacifism
It looks like we hinduism is the only religion present on our continent by now (buddhism and judaism have been founded). This means we can safely adopt a religion (and we should if both AIs adopt hinduism). The next religion on the techtree is confucianism. COL is a tech with high priority on my list. I would tech writing > meditation > priesthood > monarchy > col. Probably around the time we get monarchy some AI will get IW and ABC and we can trade for IW. If we're first to CoL we prevent religious trouble and have a great trading chip for backfilling stuff like ABC, maths or even aest depending on what the AIs have for us.Settling is tricky. There is a nice spot with 2 silk and fish towards biz - but we likely won't make it and lose the fish to biz anyway. Also there's the wheat/gold site. I'd go for that next, another source of gold gives us a trading chip (early resource trades help a lot in diplo) and adds a lot to our eco. I would put 2 cities in the land to the south with stone, sheep and deer, they don't hurry at all though. There is not much food and the sheep city can borrow 2 FPs from Moscow as needed and sharing the stone tile between the 2 cities is good imo.
How much we can expect to settle towards churchill is not sure. We don't know enough about the land up there and how far churchill is with settling. I think we should settle gold/wheat first then try to seal off lots of land. We can get great cities up there even if churchill puts down a few of his own. Also jungle slows down AI expansion so we should have time to get those gems and phants
I don't know why moscow built a rax... I'd build a granary there now and try to grow as much as possible to whip the Library there ASAP and start running the scientists. Right now we should switch it to the gold mine to avoid
and help push towards writing. Don't forget to put research down to 0% after we reach writing, be that now directly or via meditation... at least until we finish the library in moscow or even longer. Also, Novgorod should build a monument first instead of a granary.The worker built in st pete is our second. The city is still size 1 so it should build a monument next to grow and then the settler to try and get the wheat/gold site. Afterwards it can grow more by building warriors (cheap
with HR) and pump out settlers/workers. This city neither needs a library nor a rax just now though a granary is surely not out of place Moscow can also be set on settler/worker pump after it finished the library. As the cottages get built it should be whipped a bit less to start growing them. As we need to wait until we finish writing, moscow can fit in a worker before the library I think. We need lots of worker turns for those cottages on FPs and we plan on settling some more cities so we need those workers.
I don't like those 2 farms too much as they can't be worked by other cities and moscow has more than enough food already, mind you
Please remember to move a warrior to moscow as MP
We have 5 atm. I'd fortify one in moscow, move one west for fogbusting, 2 up north for scouting and fogbusting and the last one east to scout biz' settling.I must say I don't like novgorod's place too much... by the time we finally get chariots online most of the land is either settled or fogbusted and we can't really try to capture barb cities with chariots (no axes
).We need to connect the gold to help moscow grow further without
It looks like churchill has lots of non-jungle land to settle. Good for us, gives us more time
Oh and wonder-wise; I wouldn't focus too much on any specific wonder. I don't like building wonders without the resources. We don't have marble so no GL... but this also means we can neglect aest/lit/drama until much later. The only wonder that I'd try to build is the AWat, especially if we manage to bulb philo early and settle the stone site sometime. There are a lot of wonders however that we can partbuild for cash to help maintain 100% research for a loooong time... SoZ, Chicken Pizza (ha-ha... I know this one is getting old
), probably mids, ...Generally, long-term, we focus on war on horsies, right?
I'd prefer to strike with cuirassiers as they come much earlier than cossacks and likely attack biz as he isn't protective and likely builds some shiny wonders for us but that is too early to judge Just if it looks like he's our target we should focus our EPs on him so we eventually get to revolt a city...As to how to get those horsies, cuirassiers have something quite nice: both WE and knights upgrade to them. This means we can part-build both before we get MT and gunpowder and quickly finish lots of cuirassiers without needing to spend money on upgrades (I'd still do some upgrades) and whip out even more once the queues are empty. We are industrious and should easily get lots of forges in place to quickly whip out an army of shiny cuirassiers
Ouch this DID get quite long
I hope my ideas make some sense, but again, this was the first time I got to look at the save... Hope you enjoyed it anyway ha-ha shyuhe
Deity
Oracle was a bit ambitious. CoL seems pretty reasonable, although I'd prefer to tech it through alphabet. With 2 AI, there's no knowing how long they'll take to discover alphabet.
The only jungle site I really want is the double gem one near the coast, and one with banana. We can wrest the others from Churchill later. So now we have 3 votes for wheat next
I don't think any other build was available at the time, except warriors or worker/settlers. I may not be remembering correctly though.
Your proposed builds sound good. But a city can never have too many farms
Well except maybe Moscow...Please remember to move a warrior to moscow as MP
Sounds good.
I don't think there will be many barb cities to capture anyways.I must say I don't like novgorod's place too much... by the time we finally get chariots online most of the land is either settled or fogbusted and we can't really try to capture barb cities with chariots (no axes
We also need a road to the corn - probably will need a worker dedicated to Moscow soon.We need to connect the gold to help moscow grow further without
Stone wonder failure sounds good once we get stone up. And yes, we're going to be warring with whatever mounted unit we get an advantage with (likely cuirassiers). I doubt we'll get enough EP to revolt more than one city but at least it'll be usable against the capital. The knight -- cuirassier upgrade is reasonable but WE upgrade is VERY expensive. Unless we get the GM merchant, I would not bother pre-building WEs. We will probably have more than enough builds that we'll need first anyways.
Whipping order should be granary -- forge -- whatever the city needs (once we get metalcasting of course).
shyuhe
Deity
Also, nice to see you getting BUG working 
While it's not needed, OB (i.e. an actual possible TR instead of just a "could-be TR with OB") doubles the chance of autospread.
Actual comments after I trudge through the massive discussion that happened while I was at the Taste of Chaos tour
In other irrelevant news, my Christmas vacation started! Woho!There are lots of great city spots up north but we can delay this discussion until we have a settler for city #4 and the land properly scouted. I would try to settle as many cities as possible up there.
It is very likely to get (only) one revolt but it still is a freebie we don't want to miss out on, do we..? It may either be the cap or the city with the SoD.
Re moscow's rax: you said "nothing to build except warriors or workers/settlers". I think this is exactly what we need, no? Lots of food means big cities means lots of free unit upkeep. And we really need some workers. Settlers are welcome as well ofc. Moscow will not build too many units, its mainly a commerce city. But what is done is done and we don't need to talk about it anymore
What I mean with prebuilding knights and WE is to have them nearly completed in the cities' build queues. That way we are "building cuirassiers" long before we can actually do that. If we didn't have phants we could only prebuild knights and not invest just as many hammers in future cuirassiers as with Knights AND WEs.
It is very likely to get (only) one revolt but it still is a freebie we don't want to miss out on, do we..?
It may either be the cap or the city with the SoD.Re moscow's rax: you said "nothing to build except warriors or workers/settlers". I think this is exactly what we need, no? Lots of food means big cities means lots of free unit upkeep. And we really need some workers. Settlers are welcome as well ofc. Moscow will not build too many units, its mainly a commerce city. But what is done is done and we don't need to talk about it anymore
What I mean with prebuilding knights and WE is to have them nearly completed in the cities' build queues. That way we are "building cuirassiers" long before we can actually do that. If we didn't have phants we could only prebuild knights and not invest just as many hammers in future cuirassiers as with Knights AND WEs.
shyuhe
Deity
You can't grow bigger if you're building settlers/workers. But as you said that's in the past so let's discuss what to do from here
Is it worth pre-building knights/WE? I was under the impression that we were going to whip an army and jack up the culture slider while we go hammer one of the two AI - probably Churchill first since his land is greener. If we're whipping, I don't think pre-build hammers will matter much and we'll want to worry more about how fast we get to the necessary MT/gunpowder combo.
Is it worth pre-building knights/WE? I was under the impression that we were going to whip an army and jack up the culture slider while we go hammer one of the two AI - probably Churchill first since his land is greener. If we're whipping, I don't think pre-build hammers will matter much and we'll want to worry more about how fast we get to the necessary MT/gunpowder combo.
I must say I don't like novgorod's place too much... by the time we finally get chariots online most of the land is either settled or fogbusted and we can't really try to capture barb cities with chariots (no axes
What's wrong with it? It's the only logical place that can utilize all the remaining FP and it's entirely possible we'll get one of those 5-barb-streams from either the ice or jungle and defending with pure warriors against that kinda sucks... I don't think anyone was going to go on a gung-ho conquer spree with them
Wonders:
I don't like gunning for stuff like Oracle or Aest line here... The nicest I can think of in our situation is HG actually though I very rarely go for that... double-sped (if the stone is online already at that date) and the health would be better than ever.
Techs:
Writing seems to be the way to go here. After that it gets a bit muddy but I wouldn't go PH CoL here if we decide to skip Oracle (which I think we should). Math after writing would probably give us IW in a trade and a shot at the HG as mentioned above. If I'd be playing this on my usual autopilot I'd probably go Writing->Math->possible Alpha partial+trade->Currency... But I've come to realize I love Currency a bit too much compared to the alternatives
Settling:
Tricky indeed... In the light of postponing IW to an uncertain date and daddy's reinforcing comments the Wheat site has gotten renewed love. Because of that mountain range losing that northeastern Banana to Churchill wouldn't be the end of the world either. Plus the mentioned fact that he has a lot of non-jungle land to settle. Maybe Wheat next, then a northern jungle city on the banana / west of it and stone after that? Stone could be 5th too if we start eyeing some wonders greedily... Plus it opens building super-Wealth as also noted before.
For as far as Cuirassiers I have no comment yet based on the current situation. Except that yes, we should aim for starting our warring with them; the Renaissance mounted blitz window isn't that big on Quick.
EDIT: Oh, and welcome back mystyfly! (mysty? myst? mf? muse?
)@shyuhe: i find tat very useful, did it in some deity game here before I went to the army. Basically we put hammers into cuirassiers before we can actually build them. This means we don't need money for upgrading as we finish those builds as cuirassiers. I just wanted to mention that we can put more hammers into future cuirassiers (and thus start earlier) because there are two units we can use for that. I suggest we do that instead of building rather unnecessary infra buildings like markets. How we continue our army-buildup from there, be it by whipping or building the old-fashionned way with workshops doesn't matter to that "prebuilding-technique".
@silu: that comment abt novgorod was less about the position itself but more abt the settling order, I'd have settled wheat/gold instead of horse as it takes way too long to connect the horses (we have 1 worker for 3 cities...) and actually build only one chariot for an actual combat with a barb
Teching maths for HG and trade SOUNDS good but imo this wont work too well. To build HG we should get stone online fast. Imo the stone site is quite low-priority, I doubt biz will hurry down there. Seconldy, maths is no good trading chip as the ai tech it early and we'd need to selfresearch abc if we want to get anything useful (besides iw). Thirdly, HR and COL are very very important techs for empire. To me, already the bonus of having them 10 turns or so earlier is enough to skip maths and the HG.
Haha I heared both mysty and myst but no mf so far I'm glad though that somebody FINALLY picks up that hint that I'm a bit Muse-fan
@silu: that comment abt novgorod was less about the position itself but more abt the settling order, I'd have settled wheat/gold instead of horse as it takes way too long to connect the horses (we have 1 worker for 3 cities...) and actually build only one chariot for an actual combat with a barb
Teching maths for HG and trade SOUNDS good but imo this wont work too well. To build HG we should get stone online fast. Imo the stone site is quite low-priority, I doubt biz will hurry down there. Seconldy, maths is no good trading chip as the ai tech it early and we'd need to selfresearch abc if we want to get anything useful (besides iw). Thirdly, HR and COL are very very important techs for empire. To me, already the bonus of having them 10 turns or so earlier is enough to skip maths and the HG.
Haha I heared both mysty and myst but no mf so far
I'm glad though that somebody FINALLY picks up that hint that I'm a bit Muse-fan shyuhe
Deity
I have no idea what Muse is...
HG would be nice but that stone city is #5 at best, so we won't have the resource hooked up in time (especially since we're short workers).
The pre-building sounds good. I was learning more towards just building wealth to crank the slider to 100%. Not that we even have a library or academy right now.
HG would be nice but that stone city is #5 at best, so we won't have the resource hooked up in time (especially since we're short workers).
The pre-building sounds good. I was learning more towards just building wealth to crank the slider to 100%. Not that we even have a library or academy right now.
Daddy knows best. I'm not about to argue. 
Seriously, though, it looks like we have a solid majority on wheat next, so maybe there's no point arguing? That saves us from having to make a decision for some time. I'm still in favour of expanding straight north after to block off Churchill. Bismarck will beat us to fish/2silk, so there's no point aiming that way. Stone can wait, though I'd send a warrior down there to spawnbust it. I left the warriors in a bit of a disarray after my set, sorry, but there were some barbs north and I didn't feel safe with the two new cities. Failure cash from stone+ind is attractive, but I don't think we can afford to build any wonders for some time.
Tech: I think Writing is pretty clear. After that, I'm in favour of Medi/PH/COL. Monarchy, I would assume, we can trade for. Math > HG sounds cool, but too complicated to me.
I have absolutely no opinion on spamming post-MT units yet. Slightly premature discussion, I think.
I think we should build another worker in Moscow. Hooking up both gold and ivory soonish would be good to let Moscow grow after. Maybe St. Pete can be a settler pump, like mysty suggested... That lets Moscow grow and tech.
According to a Roster posted a while ago I'm up, "Got it". I think the discussion for the next set is pretty settled so I'll play this afternoon, in ~6hrs from now.
At this point I'd like to draw the attention of our lurkers
to the free open roster spot. If someone feels up to participating in this SG and likely the SGOTM, please come ahead and say so
At this point I'd like to draw the attention of our lurkers
to the free open roster spot. If someone feels up to participating in this SG and likely the SGOTM, please come ahead and say so 
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
Nice post Mysty ... though I think AWat is useless... except for cash 
. Priest don't improve production (common lie on the forum) compared to whipping or working workshops.
Agreed mostly with your other comments... so what will be the tech path of your set finally? writing -> med -> PH?
@Silu: I agree with mysty against the HG too.. math is the first tech the AI tech after writing (90% of the AIs at least), and stone is low priority.
@Shyuhe: Muse is a crappy band
@team: daddy is full of non-sense
edit: chariots are perfectly fine to capture barb cities
what did u mean Mysty?
... though I think AWat is useless... except for cash . Priest don't improve production (common lie on the forum) compared to whipping or working workshops.Agreed mostly with your other comments... so what will be the tech path of your set finally? writing -> med -> PH?
@Silu: I agree with mysty against the HG too.. math is the first tech the AI tech after writing (90% of the AIs at least), and stone is low priority.
@Shyuhe: Muse is a crappy band
Spoiler :
@team: daddy is full of non-sense
edit: chariots are perfectly fine to capture barb cities
what did u mean Mysty?Yeah I didn't think the HG idea would get much love I mostly mentioned as an antithesis (though I admit that I tend do a lot of "cool" things in solo games that are suboptimal but "fun" ) that I'd rather even go for that than for any other specific wonder in this situation such as Oracle or AWat (only useful for grinding the Tao shrine usually but 250% Wealth is so hard to pass up).
Writing -> Med -> PH -> Monarchy/CoL sounds good to me.
I mostly mentioned as an antithesis (though I admit that I tend do a lot of "cool" things in solo games that are suboptimal but "fun" ) that I'd rather even go for that than for any other specific wonder in this situation such as Oracle or AWat (only useful for grinding the Tao shrine usually but 250% Wealth is so hard to pass up).Writing -> Med -> PH -> Monarchy/CoL sounds good to me.
Haha crappy band, yeah, right 
U better 
now, old man 
I just put AWat in the discussion... we have some forests around moscow... and extra GPP are always nice. Let's assume we whip ourselves some horsies. This means we lose caste. AWat in Moscow (our best GP city) means another 3 priest slots. Also we probably wont whip moscow so hard as we want towns there sooner rather than later. In order to keep some GPs coming we need some slots... and the priests 2H help production and the gold is just extra. I'm not saying I want AWat badly or so, just throwing in ideas. In case we decide to build those horsies with workshops awat is completely useless, yeah
Chariots get neither CR nor cover and have lower base strenght. While axes have decent odds to win against a healed, fortified archer, it often takes 2 chariots to kill a barb archer. With 3-5 archers per city this is kinda too expensive
U better now, old man I just put AWat in the discussion... we have some forests around moscow... and extra GPP are always nice. Let's assume we whip ourselves some horsies. This means we lose caste. AWat in Moscow (our best GP city) means another 3 priest slots. Also we probably wont whip moscow so hard as we want towns there sooner rather than later. In order to keep some GPs coming we need some slots... and the priests 2H help production and the gold is just extra. I'm not saying I want AWat badly or so, just throwing in ideas. In case we decide to build those horsies with workshops awat is completely useless, yeah
Chariots get neither CR nor cover and have lower base strenght. While axes have decent odds to win against a healed, fortified archer, it often takes 2 chariots to kill a barb archer. With 3-5 archers per city this is kinda too expensive
Didn't you get the memo? By huge demand by the general population, the 4 forests of Moscow are dedicated as refreshment areas for now and chopping any of them would cause +5
on top of the +1 green face! and extra GPP are always nice. Let's assume we whip ourselves some horsies. This means we lose caste. AWat in Moscow (our best GP city) means another 3 priest slots. Also we probably wont whip moscow so hard as we want towns there sooner rather than later. In order to keep some GPs coming we need some slots... and the priests 2H help production and the gold is just extra. I'm not saying I want AWat badly or so, just throwing in ideas. In case we decide to build those horsies with workshops awat is completely useless, yeah
Considering we can only build cottages there and want to benefit from Bureu as much as we can probably, I think we'd better off focusing main GP pumping in St. Pete's. Also at least I would rather get GS's (or if we're that hurting for spec slots, even Market Merchants) than GP's, and working even AW priests is just silly for the yields. Still my main gripe against building AW is losing the 250% Wealth building, since Stone wonders aren't that plentiful.
Good though to consider stuff like the AW and HG (and Oracle) even though none of those were dead-serious considerations. Keeps the conversation flowing if nothing else
Chariots get neither CR nor cover and have lower base strenght. While axes have decent odds to win against a healed, fortified archer, it often takes 2 chariots to kill a barb archer. With 3-5 archers per city this is kinda too expensive
Nah, not that expensive, considering they are cheaper and can withdraw. Further, the question is not whether Axes are better than Chariots; it's if the price of capturing a city with Chariots is worth the investment. Considering land is key and the rewards of capturing a decent city in the BCs can be enormous (compared to 200 hammers), it usually is worth it.
Anyway, not sure why we were comparing Axes to Chariots in the first place considering we only have access to one of those. I don't think anyone disagrees that defending an empire with just Warriors until close to 1AD is a gamble at best. Just the 2 Archers that were visible during the Horse settling could cause some serious havoc and barb Axes are due to pop up soon.
shyuhe
Deity
At most, we can chop two forests near Moscow - one on the river and one on the grass hill. And even then, we shouldn't chop them until we get a few more health resources hooked up. Sounds like we have a plan though - writing--med--PH sounds good.
Chichen Itza is probably a better stone wonder (earlier) to get 250% wealth on. It doesn't involve trading away philosophy
Axes are definitely better than chariots for capturing barb cities, especially since we're aggressive. We should definitely get one or two chariots to defend the north but the south should be relatively safe with some good spawnbusting.
Chichen Itza is probably a better stone wonder (earlier) to get 250% wealth on. It doesn't involve trading away philosophy
Axes are definitely better than chariots for capturing barb cities, especially since we're aggressive. We should definitely get one or two chariots to defend the north but the south should be relatively safe with some good spawnbusting.
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
Haha crappy band, yeah, right
Loving the "old man"... Actually I have all Muse albums but the most recent one, and listen them once in a while Are you always running in traps? Now I will go sharpen my knives waiting for you to play your round
@team: daddy is full of non-sense
I don't think "nonsense" is necessarily what you meant.
It's ok, you're forgiven on the account of being a Frenchie.Good luck, mysty. Don't chop any forests now.
That's a spankin' I'll have to go download me some of this Muse right now...
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