Shoshone discussion

[Markal]

You're right, I was just thinking within the frame of Pdan's answer. If the AR part of the UA has to be small because half or more of the community doesn't play with AR on in the first place, then it has no business being in an UA at all in my opinion. It should rather be designed like the mayan holkan of 4UC.

I'm not very knowledgeable regarding the Shoshone's culture and history but based on that reference (http://freebooks.uvu.edu/NURS3400/index.php/ch09-shoshone-culture.html, which seems credible albeit with strong Utah flavor ) here are some ideas:

- A mechanic echoing their strong animism ("The Shoshone people were greatly connected to their land. They respect the native plants and animals and appreciate the land in which they live on. They believe that every plant and animal as well as the land itself has a living spirit and that the plants, animals and people maintain a relationship.") : it could be a bonus for any one/two unimproved tiles within their territory (synergy with their land claiming ability).

- Increased war weariness for the attacker pillaging/occupying Shoshone's tiles ("The Shoshone tribes believed not that they owned the land, but that they were one with the land in which they inhabited. They have such a strong relationship with their land that any damage done to the land they inhabit is seen as a direct assault on them.") even if that part is embodied already in the passive damage of their encampment).

- A bonus to all "animal" tiles (deers, horses, cattle, sheeps, whales...) ("The religious beliefs of the Shoshone tribes stemmed from supernatural powers that often took the shape of animals and other mythical creatures.) Could be a bonus to faith or culture for instance (redundant with pantheons and OP probably).
- A random promotion for all recon lines unit (a bit like Japan's bushido) ("The Vision Quest is a ritual for the men of the tribe. If a man in the tribe has not had a vision or a dream, which the elders see as supernatural, they are then prepared to go on their vision quest. The premise behind the quest is that a spirit, typically in the form of an animal, will come to the tribe member and bestow its powers on him and become that man's guardian.")

- A bonus to all river tiles ("They were often referred to as the “valley people” because they camped in valleys.")

Most if not all of these ideas are probably ill advised or impossible to implement, but hopefully it can serve to show that there are a lot of possibilities to improve their UA beyond AR.

 

[pineappledan]

Or just… drop anything ruins related entirely.

The name and the largest piece of the kit’s theme that exists is already the large extra borders combined with massive defensive bonuses (% home territory bonus and chip damage all over your land)

If the Huns’ land claim bonus were moved to the Shoshone, and the AI tile picker was made better, so it prioritized grabbing more tiles, you could give a bonus for every X unworkable tiles. Ie, a global bonus for each tile you own outside the 3 tile radius of any city (or 4 with tradition)

Very “great expanse”

 

[ma_kuh]

The only reason the Shoshone UA is tied to Ruins is because their original UU, the Pathfinder, interacted with them, and it needs to carry over to scouts now since VP upgrades into them. I don't really see it as a great thematic to be honest, plenty of civs in the game could claim to be good at talking to their un-affiliated neighbors.

Is the +25% gold from international trade routes settled on rivers significant, in your experiences? Maybe there's an economic angle to giving them tools that let them settle whatever tile they want by giving them that bonus even off-river. Maybe going as far as to give them fresh water status in all their cities. Then you get freedom to maximize encampments, the tile-claim, etc. You can post up cities on hills for the defensive bonuses, but not lose out of trade routes... I don't know, maybe it's too subtle of a benefit. And then do they just look like another TR civ (even though the "bonus" is mostly just making up for the penalty)?

 

[pineappledan]

possible idea:
Great Expanse
- Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type. (current Huns ability)
- Cities gain +1Food and Tourism for every 2 Unworkable tiles they own
- Land Units receive a +20% Combat Strength bonus when fighting in friendly territory.

Unworkable tiles tiles are any tile a city owns but cannot assign to. This includes:
- Mountains
- Flat Desert with no resource or improvement
- Snow with no resource or improvement
- Any tile outside workable city radius. This is usually 4+ tiles away from the city, unless you have the tradition Finisher which adds +1 working radius

Spoiler Pros :

Spoiler map of traditional Shoshone Lands :

• The Shoshone traditional lands cover the Great Basin in present day Wyoming, Utah, and Nevada. It's mostly desert, brushland, and highland forests bordered by the Rocky Mountains to the West. The rewards for marginal, unworkable land tie into the terrain from their homeland
• This also gives the Shoshone a new angle for settling priorities. We could change the Shoshone starting bias to Desert, and they would have a part of their kit that combines with that.
• Synergy with the large border blob abilities, which gives Shoshone something to do with their massive border growth
• Ties into the defensive bonuses. The large tile claims and yields incentivize settling further away and the defense bonuses mitigate the risks of doing that.
• Gives a source of , which gives a direction for Shoshone to go. Users have reported not knowing what to do with the Shoshone after the early game, because their early UI, on-settle tiles, and ruins bonus are all skewed towards early game, and don't give them a clear goal.

Spoiler Cons :

• Some unworkable tiles can be made workable. Great Person tiles can be placed on snow and desert tiles. Encampments can also be placed on flat Desert and Snow. Farms can also be put on flat desert next to a lake. The AI won't know not to do any of these things unless taught not to improve those kinds of tiles
• Tradition adds +1 working radius. Petra and universities add a yield to all desert and snow tiles, respectively, near a city. This weakens/counteracts the unworkable tiles UA ability. So some pretty weird countersynergies.
• The AI won't know to settle far apart so that their cities don't have overlapping work radiuses. The UA would reward spacing cities far apart, and the AI would have to be taught to do that, or to unlearn prioritizing settling closer together

 

[ma_kuh]

I think the non-workable-tiles idea needs some extra support if it's going to work. Giving Shoshone encampments, which specifically let you turn sub-par terrain into workable terrain, just to train AI and humans not to make them, seems backwards. If the encampment was changed into just a defensive tool, with no yields (and those yields were moved elsewhere on the kit), then it might be okay. And there's an inherent drawback to settling far apart, so even if trained properly they'd need some way to mitigate it.

I've been wondering about giving them something like Rome's old Legion ability: "Recon units can build roads and encampments", possibly also changing the UI into something else (but you wouldn't have to). This would support sprawling settlements by offloading road building from your workers. The UI would also come from your recon units, so there's less need for workers at all, which feels on-point for a nomadic group.

Alternatively, melding the idea of "animal exploitation" as a focus, encampments gain "connects resources", and can only be placed over bison, deer, horses, sheep, cattle, fur, truffles, ivory (any other land animals I'm forgetting). Would it be possible to let them only connect these resources? So it's like a special camp+pasture. This supports the unworkable tiles, in that you are no longer spamming encampments in non-adjacent triangles to eek out as much culture from terrain as possible, you are instead working tall, stacked animal tiles.

 

[pineappledan]

Old? The legion still has it.

 

[Markal]

I like those propositions as they are already much more engaging that what we are starting from.

Is it possible (in the vein of the Chinese mechanic) to imagine a stronger bonus to unimproved/unworkable tiles that will "naturally" downgrade as the game progresses and you end up improving most of your territory? It'd be a strong bonus early on and then a faint one but still active through most of the game. Would it be easier for the AI to learn it that way?

If we can't/don't take the ability from the Huns, should we consider BPG as a bonus for unimproved/unworkable tiles?

 

[pineappledan]

Giving Shoshone encampments, which specifically let you turn sub-par terrain into workable terrain, just to train AI and humans not to make them, seems backwards.

Fair. The only point of friction is flat desert with no river. The tile claim won’t prioritize any of these unworkable tiles either, and will not prioritize them for the UA. Since the UI gives both And to the tile directly, and culture on tiles can be converted to its kind of the same thing for late game.

The main thing that would drive the bonus is owned tiles outside workable range; the unworkable tiles within range are mainly for theme.

I've been wondering about giving them something like Rome's old Legion ability: "Recon units can build roads and encampments", possibly also changing the UI into something else (but you wouldn't have to). This would support sprawling settlements by offloading road building from your workers. The UI would also come from your recon units, so there's less need for workers at all, which feels on-point for a nomadic group.

Polynesia does something similar with letting all embarked units build fishing boats. I think that’s a better execution of the idea because it saves you hundreds of And many city turns setting up work boats. That feels more significant.

Such a bonus works well on an early UU, because the crunch for early gold and production delaying workers is really just an early game thing. My Khmer mod has a spearman UU that can build all pre-industrial worker improvements, and I think an obsoleting unit like that or the Legion is a better spot for such an obsoleting bonus.

Alternatively, melding the idea of "animal exploitation" as a focus, encampments gain "connects resources", and can only be placed over bison, deer, horses, sheep, cattle, fur, truffles, ivory (any other land animals I'm forgetting). Would it be possible to let them only connect these resources? So it's like a special camp+pasture. This supports the unworkable tiles, in that you are no longer spamming encampments in non-adjacent triangles to eek out as much culture from terrain as possible, you are instead working tall, stacked animal tiles.

Very doable. Rome’s unique improvement in the 4UC mod does this.

Is it Desirable though? The encampment’s special ability is to at it can spread that 5 damage per turn to almost all tiles in your land. Without that ubiquity they would mainly be a unique pasture/camp with different tech/policy/building boosts from the those improvements.

The reason we implemented the Roman latifundium the way we did, with it being built on a plantation resource, but then spawning a plantation next to it when done, is because we were worried we would break Goddess of Springtime. If shoshone’s UI replaces camps and pastures that interferes with GoOpen Sky, GoHunt, Urbanization (Freedom), Serfdom (Fealty), Lodge (aka Smokehouse, I guess), and Agribusiness

If we can't/don't take the ability from the Huns, should we consider BPG as a bonus for unimproved/unworkable tiles?

That would essentially be rewarding getting tiles with more tiles. A positive feedback loop, so not ideal.

 

[azum4roll]

If you ever make a proposal with this idea, please require the sponsor to also code the AI improvements.

Even so, they can still be forward settled and lose yields that way. Maybe teach them to raze nearby cities too?

 

[ma_kuh]

Old? The legion still has it.

I don't know why I thought Legion had lost the ability to build roads and forts... Never mind me.

 

[CppMaster]

possible idea:
Great Expanse
- Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type. (current Huns ability)
- Cities gain +1Food and Tourism for every 2 Unworkable tiles they own
- Land Units receive a +20% Combat Strength bonus when fighting in friendly territory.

Unworkable tiles tiles are any tile a city owns but cannot assign to. This includes:
- Mountains
- Flat Desert with no resource or improvement
- Snow with no resource or improvement
- Any tile outside workable city radius. This is usually 4+ tiles away from the city, unless you have the tradition Finisher which adds +1 working radius

Spoiler Pros :

Spoiler map of traditional Shoshone Lands :

View attachment 669122

• The Shoshone traditional lands cover the Great Basin in present day Wyoming, Utah, and Nevada. It's mostly desert, brushland, and highland forests bordered by the Rocky Mountains to the West. The rewards for marginal, unworkable land tie into the terrain from their homeland
• This also gives the Shoshone a new angle for settling priorities. We could change the Shoshone starting bias to Desert, and they would have a part of their kit that combines with that.
• Synergy with the large border blob abilities, which gives Shoshone something to do with their massive border growth
• Ties into the defensive bonuses. The large tile claims and yields incentivize settling further away and the defense bonuses mitigate the risks of doing that.
• Gives a source of , which gives a direction for Shoshone to go. Users have reported not knowing what to do with the Shoshone after the early game, because their early UI, on-settle tiles, and ruins bonus are all skewed towards early game, and don't give them a clear goal.

Spoiler Cons :

• Some unworkable tiles can be made workable. Great Person tiles can be placed on snow and desert tiles. Encampments can also be placed on flat Desert and Snow. Farms can also be put on flat desert next to a lake. The AI won't know not to do any of these things unless taught not to improve those kinds of tiles
• Tradition adds +1 working radius. Petra and universities add a yield to all desert and snow tiles, respectively, near a city. This weakens/counteracts the unworkable tiles UA ability. So some pretty weird countersynergies.
• The AI won't know to settle far apart so that their cities don't have overlapping work radiuses. The UA would reward spacing cities far apart, and the AI would have to be taught to do that, or to unlearn prioritizing settling closer together

Yeah, good points about the cons. IMHO these AI problems are too serious and making AI to know how to use is it specifically might not be worth.

 

[usadefcon1]

possible idea:
Great Expanse
- Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type. (current Huns ability)
- Cities gain +1Food and Tourism for every 2 Unworkable tiles they own
- Land Units receive a +20% Combat Strength bonus when fighting in friendly territory.

Rather than Unworkable tiles, perhaps give a yield bonus to Unimproved tiles beyond 2 distance from the city.

The bonus yields could start out small but improve with tech. For example more tourism with Railroad.

 

[Markal]

If we try to keep both the land grabing + bonus to defense side of the UA we probably don't leave ourselves enough room to improve the said UA in any meaningful way.

The Shoshone as they stand right now have:
- An ability to claim tiles faster,
- a boost to defense in homeland territory,
- an AR mechanic we want to get rid off,
- an UI boosting defense again (overlapping the UA) and providing some yields to otherwise unappealing tiles,
- an UU that seems to be widely considered as underwhelming (their gist being some science upon pillaging).

In Vanilla Civ (G&K) the +20% to defense in homeland territory was part of the UA of Ethiopia (Spirit of Adwa if memory serves - in reference to their resilience again colonizing European powers) and was synergizing with their UU (the Mehal Sefari). That is to say, in my view, that both historically and from a gameplay standpoint, the +20% to defense is bland and not a very fun mechanic. It's quite good, the problem is not here, but it has no very good synergy with the rest of their kit: they have a lot of land so arguably they can use that bonus more proficiently, at least in early game. I find that by the time you can take an enemy city (Emperor difficulty), their army is usually not a threat big enough anymore to make the +20% to defense in the newly conquered territory a very noticeable boost. If you want to play a turtle game, would you go for The Shoshone more than a civ like Babylon, Arabia, Korea (and the list could go on)? If you want to use the bonus aggressively, you sit on your land waiting for the enemy to impale itself on your defense and then you push forward... that's meh to me.

So I would say, let's get rid of the bonus to defense in the UA. Eventually you could transfer some of that boost in the Encampment (actually providing +15%, so we could boost it to +30% or give an aura to the UI like +15% on all adjacent hexes).

I'm not fond of the land grabbing part of the kit either (I mean, I did say I dislike that civ ) but I'd say it's their most iconic feature so it's worth keeping and building something around that. Since they claim land faster, all the ideas regarding unworkable/unimproved tiles are appealing to me and could be truly unique. I don't even know if that is possible but for instance, along other bonuses, getting happiness for each unimproved tiles/unhappiness for improved tiles (lux ressources aside) would unique (maybe uniquely stupid but I'm thinking out loud). I love some of the ideas of Hinin for his UB (+food on killing units, BGP on building buildings)...

 

[Anarcomu]

In Vanilla Civ (G&K) the +20% to defense in homeland territory was part of the UA of Ethiopia (Spirit of Adwa if memory serves - in reference to their resilience again colonizing European powers)

Actually, to be more specific it is a bonus against units from civs with more cities than you ; aka it is useless if you city-spam (which I do), and it can be useful in the offense ; so it is somehow different from Shoshone's bonus.

 

[Markal]

Actually, to be more specific it is a bonus against units from civs with more cities than you ; aka it is useless if you city-spam (which I do), and it can be useful in the offense ; so it is somehow different from Shoshone's bonus.

You're totally right, and it brings back some old memories haha. I unconsciously linked that to a defense bonus because it was indeed useless if you didn't play tall .

 

[Anarcomu]

TBH Ethiopia was my favorite Civ to play in vanilla, not because of their UA, nor even their UU (which comes too late), but solely for their UB, which allows (in lower difficulties) me to found before anyone else, and with a bite of luck, to enhance (thanks liberty finisher) before anyone else could found.
Of course, everything relies on settlers spamming, with lots of 1-pop cities. Not having to build shrines is a huge production/gold saver (shrines have 1 GPT upkeep in vanilla).

 

[Solic]

I'm fine giving Shoshone some compensation in some form if ancient ruins are turned off, but other than that I disagree strongly with removing that part of their kit. It's cool to have a civ that does something so unique with a mechanic that no other civ has and that's a big part of their appeal.

As long as ruins on is the default setting, I don't think we should move away from their UA working with ruins. I personally enjoy playing with ruins on, so I don't see the need to change them in the first place.

 

[Markal]

TBH Ethiopia was my favorite Civ to play in vanilla, not because of their UA, nor even their UU (which comes too late), but solely for their UB, which allows (in lower difficulties) me to found before anyone else, and with a bite of luck, to enhance (thanks liberty finisher) before anyone else could found.
Of course, everything relies on settlers spamming, with lots of 1-pop cities. Not having to build shrines is a huge production/gold saver (shrines have 1 GPT upkeep in vanilla).

It was my favorite one too back in Vanilla, not really because I played with them all that much but one of my most memorable game was with them and I loved the "defensive vibe" of their of their kit.

 

[CppMaster]

As long as ruins on is the default setting

Yes, this is a crucial matter here. Should ruins be on by default? The game should be balanced based on that, including Shoshone.

 

[pineappledan]

In Vanilla Civ (G&K) the +20% to defense in homeland territory was part of the UA of Ethiopia (Spirit of Adwa if memory serves - in reference to their resilience again colonizing European powers) and was synergizing with their UU (the Mehal Sefari). That is to say, in my view, that both historically and from a gameplay standpoint, the +20% to defense is bland and not a very fun mechanic.

Shoshone have always had the defense in friendly lands boost since they were released. Nothing was moved from Ethiopia.

I'm fine giving Shoshone some compensation in some form if ancient ruins are turned off, but other than that I disagree strongly with removing that part of their kit. It's cool to have a civ that does something so unique with a mechanic that no other civ has and that's a big part of their appeal.

As long as ruins on is the default setting, I don't think we should move away from their UA working with ruins. I personally enjoy playing with ruins on, so I don't see the need to change them in the first place.

I have been quite vocal about my dislike of the ruins picking bonus, but now that 13a ruins rebalancing has been passed, I don’t see how it can possibly stay. The ruins balance has always been close enough that I have thought getting more ruins is the only concern, but now that is even more true. Getting to pick from a list of ruins that are all pretty close to each other in power, with no obvious winners and losers, doesn’t help you very much.