If anything I think that we should consider if Light Tanks (and their line) should need aluminum. I'm inclined to say no, and maybe either have them also use oil like tanks (IIRC), use iron, or just be resourceless and have much higher upkeep than other units?
Its an interesting idea, especially for the helicopter gunship (which has a lot of mobility but not a lot of punch for its era).
I would say a definite no to having them use oil...one of the main benefits of the light tank is that I can field them alongside Tanks and/or planes...so I can more maximize my strategic resources.
Its an interesting idea, especially for the helicopter gunship (which has a lot of mobility but not a lot of punch for its era).
I would say a definite no to having them use oil...one of the main benefits of the light tank is that I can field them alongside Tanks and/or planes...so I can more maximize my strategic resources.
What I am trying to do is avoid "scope creep". At some point, this project will finish and go gold...well that's the theory at least. The reality is we keep going back to the well for more, adjust this, tweak this. It will never ever end unless we force it.
That's why I'm trying to separate balance problems from preferences, as we will never solve preferences for everyone.
That's understandable. I think we can limit the scope of the project by making distinctions between what is needed and what would be nice. I don't think we can't stop people talking about stuff though. People will always have preferences and it's probably best to them to pursue exploring those preferences. That doesn't mean they need to make it into the project. And discussing them in the civ-specific thread means they don't clutter up places that are less relevant. In some ways going to the Shoshone thread and seeing that most of the discussion is about something minor is actually a good indication that things there are in a good state of balance. That's how I see it anyway.
If anything I think that we should consider if Light Tanks (and their line) should need aluminum. I'm inclined to say no, and maybe either have them also use oil like tanks (IIRC), use iron, or just be resourceless and have much higher upkeep than other units?
I don't think we can't stop people talking about stuff though. People will always have preferences and it's probably best to them to pursue exploring those preferences. That doesn't mean they need to make it into the project. And discussing them in the civ-specific thread means they don't clutter up places that are less relevant. In some ways going to the Shoshone thread and seeing that most of the discussion is about something minor is actually a good indication that things there are in a good state of balance. That's how I see it anyway.
This is a good point as well. I think as long as people recognize that a lot of the "preference ideas" will probably not make the main cut, then there's no harm in letting people brainstorm.
This is a good point as well. I think as long as people recognize that a lot of the "preference ideas" will probably not make the main cut, then there's no harm in letting people brainstorm.
They might well if they're good enough. But even if they don't, that's where a lot of mod-mods come from and those are an important part of the community as well .
Troops you can build without resources is a use in itself, and rather an essential one. I don't think that's the right category for ranged cavalry/skirmishers though. They should stand out as being a better use of supply than foot melee and foot ranged units.
Horses are a resource I'm very happy to devote to Comanche riders. The annoying part is that they don't exist in that form for long - when they upgrade to light tanks they require a different resource (and one that isn't as common as horses).
They get outclassed by Tanks, Siege units and Planes respectively.
Mechanized Infantry has really low strength and low mobility compared to tanks, which don't have a penalty when attacking cities unlike mounted melee.
Bazooka also has low strength, and 2 moves + 2 range pretty much never gets used unless you're defending in a railroad network. Siege has 3 range AND indirect fire, and Rocket Artillery loses the movement penalty in enemy lands.
Helicopter Gunship is easily hunted down by (Jet) Fighters and its speed can't get it out of the way. Planes are "faster" (6 range = 11 moves) and just as strong, with more utility.
They get outclassed by Tanks, Siege units and Planes respectively.
Mechanized Infantry has really low strength and low mobility compared to tanks, which don't have a penalty when attacking cities unlike mounted melee.
Bazooka also has low strength, and 2 moves + 2 range pretty much never gets used unless you're defending in a railroad network. Siege has 3 range AND indirect fire, and Rocket Artillery loses the movement penalty in enemy lands.
Helicopter Gunship is easily hunted down by (Jet) Fighters and its speed can't get it out of the way. Planes are "faster" (6 range = 11 moves) and just as strong, with more utility.
OK but @Gidoza only argued that they should each have uses, not that they all currently do.
And keep that being able to build troops which don't require strategics is a use in itself, as I mentioned. Even if they're just meatshields or the units you defend your cities with while the rest of your army is out conquering.
Troops you can build without resources is a use in itself, and rather an essential one. I don't think that's the right category for ranged cavalry/skirmishers though. They should stand out as being a better use of supply than foot melee and foot ranged units.
Horses are a resource I'm very happy to devote to Comanche riders. The annoying part is that they don't exist in that form for long - when they upgrade to light tanks they require a different resource (and one that isn't as common as horses).
I mean generally I agree with you that troops built without resources is a use in itself. My issue with that in the late game is that unless one is horribly unlucky, there are SO many resources available in the late game that the idea of "not having resources" is a moot point. In order to think that the non-resource units are useful, I first need to run out of resources.
I mean generally I agree with you that troops built without resources is a use in itself. My issue with that in the late game is that unless one is horribly unlucky, there are SO many resources available in the late game that the idea of "not having resources" is a moot point. In order to think that the non-resource units are useful, I first need to run out of resources.
That seems subjective. Depends how large your territory is, what you supply cap is etc. I often use a lot of my iron in my navy for example. I certainly have surplus oil most of the time but that's about it. And while tanks and planes are nice, I don't want an army of just those two.
Can someone break off this discussion into it's own thread? Break time is over so I don't have time, but this really isn't the place, even though it affects it.
I usually get the upgrade with the first ruin, gold with the second, and after that tech/+1 citizen/faith whenever they are available. The gold boost can usually buy a new pathfinder or a worker.
I actually wrote out a plan when I played Shoshone a lot lol. As you say, it's situational of course. But this was my general plan, my main goal being to found early (which was much harder at the time, founding is a little less challenging in recent versions).
Stage 1 - first few ruins
1) At the first ancient ruin, upgrade to a scout (for survival and vision)
2) a) If your second pathfinder (the first thing I build) is mostly not built yet, choose production.
b) If you second pathfinder has already been built, choose either i) a map, or ii) upgrade for a second scout
c) free tech, or gold/production towards a shrine (or monument if you prefer).
3) if faith is available (turn 21 or later on Epic speed), use faith to found a pantheon. This is actually the main objective of phase 1, the earlier steps are designed for ruins you find before it is available.
Stage 2 - priorities after founding a pantheon
4) faith
5) free tech
Stage 3 - backup choices for when faith/science/unit upgrades are unavailable
6) population to nearest city
7) extra territory
Stage 4 - ruins you find after the early game. E.g. after the Ancient Era when free techs aren't usually available any more.
8) Upgrade from Scout to Explorer, or Explorer to Zeppelin. This way you can get access to an advanced unit relatively early.
I've been thinking a bit about a way to rework the Shoshone UA and UU, and I would like your opinion on that.
Basically, what are the elements of the kit that deters people from playing the civ, despite its qualities ? I think there are three :
An overreliance of the kit on Ancient Ruins, which means that all people who dislike Ancient Ruins in their current state will often either never play the Shoshones or even make so that they don't appear in game
A counter-syngergy with all expansion-based bonuses, despite having a UA called "Great Expanse"
A subpar unique unit that is bizarrely dedicated to offensive plays for a kit that is meant to be versatile
Some people have suggested a kit more focused on Recon Units and less and Ancient Ruins, and I agree that it would be something more unique and less prone to make the civ skipped by so many people. That said, I also think some of the strengths of the civ related to their current reliance on ARs should be preserved in some way.
Thus here is the kit I've been thinking about.
SpoilerShoshone kit :
UA - Great Expanse
Gaining Cities or leveling up Recon Units grant Border Growth Points in all Cities. Land Units receive +15% CS when fighting within their own territory.
UU1 - Duwibi (replaces Pathfinder)
Unlocked immediatly
Uses the current Pathfinder 3d model and UnitIcon
8 CS (instead of 6)
Ignores Terrain cost Vision Quest - Gain Faith and Science from leveling up. At level 4, choose a unique bonus among four (same restrictions as the current AR system for choice selection).
Removed : Malus against barbarians
SpoilerGuardian bonuses :
Eagle Guardian - The Unit gains the "Eagle Forsight" promotion and +15 XP (+gets the name "???")
Eagle Farsight - +1 Vision, +1 MP, +15% Flanking bonus and +25 % CS when defending against Ranged Attacks.
Bison Guardian - The Unit gains the "Bison Endurance" promotion and can be upgraded into a Spearman once the required Technology is researched (+gets the name "Yellow Brow")
Bison Endurance - Increased CS based on unit damage. Defense Bonus when fortified is doubled.
Bear Guardian - The Unit gains the "Bear Ferocity" promotion and can be upgraded into a Horseman once the required Technology is researched (+gets the name "???")
Bear Ferocity - Can pillage without cost. When killing an enemy Unit, heals 10 HP and deals 10 damages to adjacent hostile Units.
Horse Guardian - The Unit gains the "Horse Impetus" promotion and can be upgraded into a Skirmisher once the required Technology is researched (+gets the name "Logs Society")
Horse Impetus - +50 % XP from combat. 80 % chance to withdraw before melee combat.
UI - Encampment
Stays the same
Spoiler4UC compatibility :
UU2 - Comanche Rider (replaces Cavalry) Unlocked at Rifling instead of Military Science
Decreased Production cost
Requires Horse
Slightly increased CS & RCS (range 1)
5 MP
Offensive malus against Cities
Offensive malus against Naval Units
Skirmisher Doctrine
Can move after attacking Lords of the Plains - When killing an hostile Unit, gain Food and Border Growth Points in the nearest City.
UB - Buffalo Pound
Stays the same
SpoilerExplanation :
UA : We have seen seen civilizations like Russia, America and Spain that gains more from expansion, but no civilization that focuses more on pure expansion (so a win easier expansion playstyle). Plus, the trigger "gaining Cities" is an interesting concept that is currently only used for China. The removal of free tiles when settling means a weaker early game, but that would quickly change once new cities are settled and recon units start to gain levels.
Finally, having a focus on Recon Units throughout the game, with the change of the UU1, means a more unique playstyle while still keeping the polyvalence of the civ.
UU1 : This unit is meant both as a way to better use the UA early on and still gain a variety of rewards from exploring. The guardian system would work like the current ARuins system for the Shoshone (not able to select the same option over and over), and the ability to upgrade the Duwibi (meaning : "Young man" ; Pathfinder is too generic a name for such a unit and young Shoshones were the one going on a "Vision Quest") into a variety of different Units that would still keep the Recon promotions but not be very numerous stays in the idea of the civ quite well.
UU2 : The Comanche Rider would be made more relevant and less offensive warfare-focused. Unlocking it at Rifling would be the main bonus, but I'm not sure about the rest.
As for the fact the current Pathfinder returns to being the civ's UU1, I can provide a replacement unit model and Icon. Tomas Duchek already agreed for me to use his work for the Free Company, and I'm pretty sure he'll agree once more for a new unit if I ask him (with full credits obviously).
SpoilerPicture for a new UnitIcon :
Thanks for reading. Obviously, these are only ideas and suggestions, and I know some people are much more knowledgeable about the civ's gameplay that I am. @JamesNinelives
As always numbers/balance is always something you can think about later, but I think that these changes would make the shoshone a much more interesting civ to play. IMO the fewer "vanilla" style civs the better
Is it possible that the "levelling up recon units" thing would be a bit too abuseable? If you have orders, barracks and armories, that is enough to get to lvl 4 right?
As always numbers/balance is always something you can think about later, but I think that these changes would make the shoshone a much more interesting civ to play. IMO the fewer "vanilla" style civs the better
Is it possible that the "levelling up recon units" thing would be a bit too abuseable? If you have orders, barracks and armories, that is enough to get to lvl 4 right?
I tested the lvl requirement element with the Matangitono of the Ainu mod. @gwennog and I discussed a lot about wether lvl 4 or lvl 5 were the correct experience level for such bonuses (knowing that with the Ainus you can found at city at that level, so it's even more important to choose carefully). We settled for lvl 4 for three reasons :
Barracks + Armory + Order ends up with 50 xp, and lvl 4 requires 60. This means that you'll have to make your unit fight a few times to get to lvl 4, and during the Medieval era all units will surely one shot your Pathfinder replacement. => Since this kind of bonus is part of the unit itself, and not the promotion, it would be lost on upgrade, and so you have to reach lvl 4 with the UU, and not a Scout or Explorer.
Lvl 5 means a lot of experience, far more that is usually available for a player by exploring early on, meaning that with such a condition you would almost never see the bonus activate (for the reason I mentionned above : the window of opportunity to gain XP by fighting with the UU is very short)
The Recon bonus of the Ancient Ruins (when you discover a patch of lands far away) is obviously a concern, but on one hand a lot of players don't use ARuins, and on the other, the bonus is far less snowbally than what the Ainu Pathfinder has : you either gain a super Recon unit early (which is very good but not game-breaking) or you still have to wait for the good tech requirements to upgrade your UU to another kind of unit (depending on the bonus you choose). The only serious concern I still have about this is that the "upgrade" part of the ARuins can ruin your unit by removing the part about Animal Guardians, hence why I still consider keeping the ARuins choice bonus.
So in the end, if we want to be honest about what part stays on upgrade, that would be more something like this.
UU1 - Duwibi (replaces Pathfinder)
Unlocked immediatly
Uses the current Pathfinder 3d model and UnitIcon
40 Production
8 CS (instead of 6)
Ignores Terrain cost Vision Quest - Gain Faith and Science from leveling up.
Animal Guardian - At level 4, choose a unique bonus among four (same restrictions as the current AR system for choice selection). Lost upon upgrade.
Honestly, I love this. In my opinion, the biggest thing that keeps people from playing Pocatello is simply that he's bland and boring. His power level is actually quite good; he's just no fun to actually play. The kit that @Hinin is suggesting is quite clever and sounds fun and powerful. Please make this available to play ASAP, and I will happily test the crap out of it.
Two thoughts:
That upgrade path means I really want to build a lot of Pathfinders and try to get them levelled up, however exploration XP is a limited resource that becomes even more limited as you build more Pathfinders. I would personally like to see them have a way to speed up their XP gain by a decent margin. Lots of XP for killing barbs/clearing encampments, maybe, or make them very strong in home territory to keep with the defensive theme.
WRT Lord of the Plains: I can't speak for everyone, but I know I hate getting food as a bonus like 90% of the time. If you're playing wide, food is almost always a very mixed blessing at best, often more of a curse. If you're playing tall, you like food but also probably aren't really in need of it; it would have to a LOT of food per kill to move the needle. (Also, it feels like it's implying cannibalism. Don't know much about the Shoshone, but I don't think think they were into eating people.)
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CS when fighting within their own territory.
Faith and 
Science from leveling up. At level 4, choose a unique bonus among four (same restrictions as the current AR system for choice selection).
Production cost
RCS (range 1)
MP
Food and Border Growth Points in the nearest City.
Don't know much about the Shoshone, but I don't think think they were into eating people.)
