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Shoshone

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by graltok, Dec 4, 2015.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Its an interesting idea, especially for the helicopter gunship (which has a lot of mobility but not a lot of punch for its era).

    I would say a definite no to having them use oil...one of the main benefits of the light tank is that I can field them alongside Tanks and/or planes...so I can more maximize my strategic resources.
     
  2. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I just figured that since previously they compete for horses, having the same split seemed reasonable, but generally I agree.
     
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  3. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    That's understandable. I think we can limit the scope of the project by making distinctions between what is needed and what would be nice. I don't think we can't stop people talking about stuff though. People will always have preferences and it's probably best to them to pursue exploring those preferences. That doesn't mean they need to make it into the project. And discussing them in the civ-specific thread means they don't clutter up places that are less relevant. In some ways going to the Shoshone thread and seeing that most of the discussion is about something minor is actually a good indication that things there are in a good state of balance. That's how I see it anyway.
     
  4. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Good idea. Infantry melee, infantry ranged and skirmishers have few uses in the end game so they should all not cost resources.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This is a good point as well. I think as long as people recognize that a lot of the "preference ideas" will probably not make the main cut, then there's no harm in letting people brainstorm.
     
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  6. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    They might well if they're good enough. But even if they don't, that's where a lot of mod-mods come from and those are an important part of the community as well :).
     
  7. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I disagree with not costing resources. If they have few uses in the late game, then this strikes me as design flaw. They should have uses.
     
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  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Troops you can build without resources is a use in itself, and rather an essential one. I don't think that's the right category for ranged cavalry/skirmishers though. They should stand out as being a better use of supply than foot melee and foot ranged units.

    Horses are a resource I'm very happy to devote to Comanche riders. The annoying part is that they don't exist in that form for long - when they upgrade to light tanks they require a different resource (and one that isn't as common as horses).
     
  9. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    They get outclassed by Tanks, Siege units and Planes respectively.

    Mechanized Infantry has really low strength and low mobility compared to tanks, which don't have a penalty when attacking cities unlike mounted melee.
    Bazooka also has low strength, and 2 moves + 2 range pretty much never gets used unless you're defending in a railroad network. Siege has 3 range AND indirect fire, and Rocket Artillery loses the movement penalty in enemy lands.
    Helicopter Gunship is easily hunted down by (Jet) Fighters and its speed can't get it out of the way. Planes are "faster" (6 range = 11 moves) and just as strong, with more utility.
     
  10. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    OK but @Gidoza only argued that they should each have uses, not that they all currently do.

    And keep that being able to build troops which don't require strategics is a use in itself, as I mentioned. Even if they're just meatshields or the units you defend your cities with while the rest of your army is out conquering.
     
  11. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I mean generally I agree with you that troops built without resources is a use in itself. My issue with that in the late game is that unless one is horribly unlucky, there are SO many resources available in the late game that the idea of "not having resources" is a moot point. In order to think that the non-resource units are useful, I first need to run out of resources.
     
  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    That seems subjective. Depends how large your territory is, what you supply cap is etc. I often use a lot of my iron in my navy for example. I certainly have surplus oil most of the time but that's about it. And while tanks and planes are nice, I don't want an army of just those two.
     
  13. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Can someone break off this discussion into it's own thread? Break time is over so I don't have time, but this really isn't the place, even though it affects it.
     
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  14. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Which ruins do you guys typically pick as Shoshone? I know it depends on the game, but do you have any defaults or choice picks?
     
  15. Melchizedek

    Melchizedek Warlord

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    I usually get the upgrade with the first ruin, gold with the second, and after that tech/+1 citizen/faith whenever they are available. The gold boost can usually buy a new pathfinder or a worker.
     
  16. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I actually wrote out a plan when I played Shoshone a lot lol. As you say, it's situational of course. But this was my general plan, my main goal being to found early (which was much harder at the time, founding is a little less challenging in recent versions).

    Stage 1 - first few ruins

    1) At the first ancient ruin, upgrade to a scout (for survival and vision)

    2) a) If your second pathfinder (the first thing I build) is mostly not built yet, choose production.
    b) If you second pathfinder has already been built, choose either i) a map, or ii) upgrade for a second scout
    c) free tech, or gold/production towards a shrine (or monument if you prefer).

    3) if faith is available (turn 21 or later on Epic speed), use faith to found a pantheon. This is actually the main objective of phase 1, the earlier steps are designed for ruins you find before it is available.

    Stage 2 - priorities after founding a pantheon

    4) faith
    5) free tech

    Stage 3 - backup choices for when faith/science/unit upgrades are unavailable

    6) population to nearest city
    7) extra territory

    Stage 4 - ruins you find after the early game. E.g. after the Ancient Era when free techs aren't usually available any more.

    8) Upgrade from Scout to Explorer, or Explorer to Zeppelin. This way you can get access to an advanced unit relatively early.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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