JamesNinelives
Emperor
I agree with some of what's been said. Here's my two cents: consider keeping the UA, or at least the theme of it - not just exploration but the language and relationships of different groups that provides learning and shared strength.
It is mechanically unique among all the civs and it's randomness is part of what makes them exciting to play for people who enjoy that. I know a lot of people don't, and that turns them off - that's OK. If we change it I understand why. It does stand out to me as being something nobody else has though, and that playstyle that hones in on a part of the game few others care about and supercharges it is very interesting to me. The early stages of the game define your fortunes and to do really well with the Shoshone you have to embrace that. No matter how well you play, you might fail. But you might also succeed gloriously!
That said, for comparison I've always been jealous of Brazil's UU ability. It's easy to use, powerful, and rewards exploration! If the UA was changed to something like this, perhaps the civ would be more accessible to people who don't want to have to deal with the viccisitudes of RNG? The thematic difference is stark though - after all the Bandienteres of Brazil were seeking fortune in new lands, while the Shoshone pathfinders were notable because of how already they knew and understood their land.
Encampents are great IMO, they are strong enough to stand on their own - as has been mentioned you can build them on any flat land so they're actually very versatile. So is the extra land on start - that's what drew me to the civ in the first place and the easiest part of their kit to use. Nobody complains about having too much land! And it fits with their history thematically. Ancient ruins or not, the Shoshone thrive by establishing and early lead and leveraging that to ensure steady growth from there. Large territory and an early unlock means lots of potential to make use of encampments. They may not be the strongest UI, but they are fairly reliable and if they find themselves outclassed I would honestly argue for nerfing other civs than buffing encampments.
The weak part of their kit, unfortunately, is their UU. As @Hinin mentioned their are not synergistic with the rest of the kit, and the lack of punch over time means that what begins well for the Shoshone rarely plays out well without luck (the factor that turns most people off about them). @Kevin covers some of this as well. I would be sad to see them go, mostly because I love the horse culture aspect but they've never been game-changing. Tbh I partly see that as reflective of actual history. It seems like civs like America are meant to conquer and civs like The Shoshone are intended to eventually be surpassed by growing powers which represent the colonial conquerers.
Maybe something related to the recon line would be good? The tragedy for me is that they fall at the intersection of two areas of highly contested game balance - not just ancient ruins but also ranged cavalry. Skirmishers and their counterparts have sort of risen and fallen in these forums as civilizations do. I don't think either area is really going to ever be entirely resolved, so perhaps it is best not to link the fate of the Shoshone to them. The question of whether it was a good idea to represent the Comanche people and their culture as part of the Shoshone nation is probably also worth considering. That's unfortunately not my area of expertise though, not being my country or my people. Ideally someone would have consulted with actual Comanche communities.
There's some good suggestions in this thread for alternatives. To be honest I enjoy being a part of the community but I haven't kept up with developments of the recent versions for some time. Something taking a step back has helped with though is giving me a broader picture of the development process as a whole. I'm glad to have been a part of this project, and I'm not sure what else to say but that I trust the community with the way forwards. Best wishes everyone <3.
It is mechanically unique among all the civs and it's randomness is part of what makes them exciting to play for people who enjoy that. I know a lot of people don't, and that turns them off - that's OK. If we change it I understand why. It does stand out to me as being something nobody else has though, and that playstyle that hones in on a part of the game few others care about and supercharges it is very interesting to me. The early stages of the game define your fortunes and to do really well with the Shoshone you have to embrace that. No matter how well you play, you might fail. But you might also succeed gloriously!
That said, for comparison I've always been jealous of Brazil's UU ability. It's easy to use, powerful, and rewards exploration! If the UA was changed to something like this, perhaps the civ would be more accessible to people who don't want to have to deal with the viccisitudes of RNG? The thematic difference is stark though - after all the Bandienteres of Brazil were seeking fortune in new lands, while the Shoshone pathfinders were notable because of how already they knew and understood their land.
Encampents are great IMO, they are strong enough to stand on their own - as has been mentioned you can build them on any flat land so they're actually very versatile. So is the extra land on start - that's what drew me to the civ in the first place and the easiest part of their kit to use. Nobody complains about having too much land! And it fits with their history thematically. Ancient ruins or not, the Shoshone thrive by establishing and early lead and leveraging that to ensure steady growth from there. Large territory and an early unlock means lots of potential to make use of encampments. They may not be the strongest UI, but they are fairly reliable and if they find themselves outclassed I would honestly argue for nerfing other civs than buffing encampments.
The weak part of their kit, unfortunately, is their UU. As @Hinin mentioned their are not synergistic with the rest of the kit, and the lack of punch over time means that what begins well for the Shoshone rarely plays out well without luck (the factor that turns most people off about them). @Kevin covers some of this as well. I would be sad to see them go, mostly because I love the horse culture aspect but they've never been game-changing. Tbh I partly see that as reflective of actual history. It seems like civs like America are meant to conquer and civs like The Shoshone are intended to eventually be surpassed by growing powers which represent the colonial conquerers.
Maybe something related to the recon line would be good? The tragedy for me is that they fall at the intersection of two areas of highly contested game balance - not just ancient ruins but also ranged cavalry. Skirmishers and their counterparts have sort of risen and fallen in these forums as civilizations do. I don't think either area is really going to ever be entirely resolved, so perhaps it is best not to link the fate of the Shoshone to them. The question of whether it was a good idea to represent the Comanche people and their culture as part of the Shoshone nation is probably also worth considering. That's unfortunately not my area of expertise though, not being my country or my people. Ideally someone would have consulted with actual Comanche communities.
There's some good suggestions in this thread for alternatives. To be honest I enjoy being a part of the community but I haven't kept up with developments of the recent versions for some time. Something taking a step back has helped with though is giving me a broader picture of the development process as a whole. I'm glad to have been a part of this project, and I'm not sure what else to say but that I trust the community with the way forwards. Best wishes everyone <3.
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