Shoshone

I agree with some of what's been said. Here's my two cents: consider keeping the UA, or at least the theme of it - not just exploration but the language and relationships of different groups that provides learning and shared strength.

It is mechanically unique among all the civs and it's randomness is part of what makes them exciting to play for people who enjoy that. I know a lot of people don't, and that turns them off - that's OK. If we change it I understand why. It does stand out to me as being something nobody else has though, and that playstyle that hones in on a part of the game few others care about and supercharges it is very interesting to me. The early stages of the game define your fortunes and to do really well with the Shoshone you have to embrace that. No matter how well you play, you might fail. But you might also succeed gloriously!

That said, for comparison I've always been jealous of Brazil's UU ability. It's easy to use, powerful, and rewards exploration! If the UA was changed to something like this, perhaps the civ would be more accessible to people who don't want to have to deal with the viccisitudes of RNG? The thematic difference is stark though - after all the Bandienteres of Brazil were seeking fortune in new lands, while the Shoshone pathfinders were notable because of how already they knew and understood their land.

Encampents are great IMO, they are strong enough to stand on their own - as has been mentioned you can build them on any flat land so they're actually very versatile. So is the extra land on start - that's what drew me to the civ in the first place and the easiest part of their kit to use. Nobody complains about having too much land! And it fits with their history thematically. Ancient ruins or not, the Shoshone thrive by establishing and early lead and leveraging that to ensure steady growth from there. Large territory and an early unlock means lots of potential to make use of encampments. They may not be the strongest UI, but they are fairly reliable and if they find themselves outclassed I would honestly argue for nerfing other civs than buffing encampments.

The weak part of their kit, unfortunately, is their UU. As @Hinin mentioned their are not synergistic with the rest of the kit, and the lack of punch over time means that what begins well for the Shoshone rarely plays out well without luck (the factor that turns most people off about them). @Kevin covers some of this as well. I would be sad to see them go, mostly because I love the horse culture aspect but they've never been game-changing. Tbh I partly see that as reflective of actual history. It seems like civs like America are meant to conquer and civs like The Shoshone are intended to eventually be surpassed by growing powers which represent the colonial conquerers.

Maybe something related to the recon line would be good? The tragedy for me is that they fall at the intersection of two areas of highly contested game balance - not just ancient ruins but also ranged cavalry. Skirmishers and their counterparts have sort of risen and fallen in these forums as civilizations do. I don't think either area is really going to ever be entirely resolved, so perhaps it is best not to link the fate of the Shoshone to them. The question of whether it was a good idea to represent the Comanche people and their culture as part of the Shoshone nation is probably also worth considering. That's unfortunately not my area of expertise though, not being my country or my people. Ideally someone would have consulted with actual Comanche communities.

There's some good suggestions in this thread for alternatives. To be honest I enjoy being a part of the community but I haven't kept up with developments of the recent versions for some time. Something taking a step back has helped with though is giving me a broader picture of the development process as a whole. I'm glad to have been a part of this project, and I'm not sure what else to say but that I trust the community with the way forwards. Best wishes everyone <3.
 
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I agree with some of what's been said. Here's my two cents: keep the UA - it's literally unique among all the civs and it's randomness is part of what makes them exciting to play for people who enjoy that. I know a lot of people don't, and that turns them off - that's OK. If we change it I understand why. It does stand out to me as being something nobody else has though, and that playstyle that hones in on a part of the game few others care about and supercharges it is very interesting to me. The early stages of the game define your fortunes and to do really well with the Shoshone you have to embrace that. No matter how well you play, you might fail. But you might also succeed gloriously!

That said, for comparison I've always been jealous of Brazil's UU ability. It's easy to use, powerful, and rewards exploration! If the UA was changed to something like this, perhaps the civ would be more accessible to people who don't want to have to deal with the viccisitudes of RNG?

Encampents are already great, they are strong enough to stand on their own - as has been mentioned you can build them on any flat land so they're actually very versatile. So is the extra land on start - that's what drew me to the civ in the first place and the easiest part of their kit to use. Nobody complains about having too much land! And it fits with their history thematically. Ancient ruins or not, the Shoshone thrive by establishing and early lead and leveraging that to ensure steady growth from there. Large territory and an early unlock means lots of potential to make use of encampments. They may not be the strongest UI, but they are fairly reliable and if they find themselves outclassed I would honestly argue for nerfing other civs than buffing encampments.

The weak part of their kit, unfortunately, is their UU. As @Hinin mentioned their are not synergistic with the rest of the kit, and the lack of punch over time means that what begins well for the Shoshone rarely plays out well without luck (the factor that turns most people off about them). @Kevin covers some of this as well. I would be sad to see them go, mostly because I love the horse culture aspect but they've never been game-changing. Tbh I partly see that as reflective of actual history. It seems like civs like America are meant to conquer and civs like The Shoshone are intended to eventually be surpassed by growing powers which represent the colonial conquerers.

Maybe something related to the recon line would be good? The tragedy for me is that they fall at the intersection of two areas of highly contested game balance - not just ancient ruins but also ranged cavalry. Skirmishers and their counterparts have sort of risen and fallen in these forums as civilizations do. I don't think either area is really going to ever be entirely resolved, so perhaps it is best not to link the fate of the Shoshone to them.

There's some good suggestions in this thread for alternatives. To be honest I enjoy being a part of the community but I haven't kept up with developments of the recent versions for some time. Something taking a step back has helped with though is giving me a broader picture of the development process as a whole. I'm glad to have been a part of this project, and I'm not sure what else to say but that I trust the community with the way forwards. Best wishes everyone <3.
I think the weak UU should maybe be replaced with a UB? Without 3rd and 4th UC (which you really should use, btw), it's one of the civs that don't have a UB
Guess what their ability encourages?
Expansion.
Unique building - nicer cities
 
Honestly, I would be happy to simply see the mod embrace the reality that a huge chunk of people disable Ancient Ruins; we already have the Porcelain Tower that has an alternate effect when research agreements are disabled, so there's precedent for an alternate-options variable ability for the Shoshone.

I think the weak UU should maybe be replaced with a UB? Without 3rd and 4th UC (which you really should use, btw), it's one of the civs that don't have a UB

#BuffaloPoundForBaseGame

EDIT: Speaking of 4UC, the Yellow Brow is a much better unit than the Comanche Rider.
 
I wonder if people’s dislike of the UU would cool somewhat if the skirmisher line wasn’t such a farce? Given people’s specific criticisms, changing the skirmishers wouldn’t dispel every criticism levelled against the Comanche, but it seems to me the only UUs in the skirmisher line anyone says a nice word about are the camel archer and the Cossack.
 
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I wonder if people’s dislike of the UU would cool somewhat if the skirmisher line wasn’t such a farce? Given people’s specific criticisms, changing the skirmishers wouldn’t dispel every criticism levelled against the Comanche, but it seems to me the only UUs in the skirmisher line anyone says a nice word about are the camel archer and the Cossack.
I don't know.
There's only one UB for the shoshone and it's in your mod, It'd be weird having 2 UB's but this guy is supposed to expand like crazy though, so
 
I wonder if people’s dislike of the UU would cool somewhat if the skirmisher line wasn’t such a farce? Given people’s specific criticisms, changing the skirmishers wouldn’t dispel every criticism levelled against the Comanche, but it seems to me the only UUs in the skirmisher line anyone says a nice word about are the camel archer and the Cossack.

I can't speak for everyone, but even using your (IMO superior) tweaks version of Skirmishers, they're still very meh, because their two unique promotions are just bad.

  • Uses no movement to pillage is fine and reasonably solid if on an otherwise good unit, but honestly, who cares? I try to save pillaging for units who need to heal as much as I can, and a skirmisher's whole raison d'être is getting in and out without getting hit. I also pillage citadels, sometimes key roads and, at least early game, strategic resource deposits. All of these are better performed either by melee who are already in position, or by a recon line unit.
  • 80% chance to withdraw is awful. This is a personal peeve of mine, but I absolutely despise all the "chance to withdraw" things. In a strategic warfare where I'm trying to plan ahead and out-think my opponent as much as possible, I absolutely do not want something I cannot 100% rely on. I generally play as if this withdraw chance doesn't exist, because what else am I supposed to do with it?!
 
Skirmishers are reasonable good early and just get worse and worse later on. So having them late means they really aren't very exciting. Add in unexciting abilities, I agree chance to withdraw is rubbish and even at 100% I don't really like it. And you can't even upgrade them really.

It is just the basic thing where early>>>>>later. Later thing need to be super powerful to feel half as good.
 
Skirmishers are reasonable good early and just get worse and worse later on.

I don't know that I completely agree. Chariot Archers are awful, Skirmishers are very solid, Heavy Skirmishers struggle to find a niche, and Cavalry are actually the height of the mounted-ranged line for me. It's the first time I feel good about using them offensively instead of only defensively. They're fast, can take a hit or two and benefit enormously from the updated infrastructure, especially railroads. I love getting the cavalry tech because it's huge upgrade to my army.
 
Chariot Archers are awful

Strategic mobility is king in the early game. Chariot Archers are the first fighting unit with 4 moves, whenever my capital gets a nice early horse I find them great in their early window. You should be comparing them to archers and warriors, not later units.
 
Strategic mobility is king in the early game. Chariot Archers are the first fighting unit with 4 moves, whenever my capital gets a nice early horse I find them great in their early window. You should be comparing them to archers and warriors, not later units.

Personally, it's very rare that I have a situation in which those movement points are really of use. Between rivers and rough terrain, it's extremely difficult to navigate them to any effectiveness.
 
Chariot archers are the same as archers. Utterly useless for fighting the AI because they die so easily but they can clear barb camps. So that 4 move gets them over to places much faster.

I think later skirmishers are fine in terms of CS but there are just so many more units they tend to get stuck and in the way far more. They need lots of babysitting and then suddenly you can't upgrade them anymore so all the work in leveling up is wasted. They aren't useless but they are so much more work than other units and wars already take forever.
 
UA - Great Expanse

Gaining Cities or leveling up Recon Units grant Border Growth Points in all Cities. Land Units receive +15% :c5strength: CS when fighting within their own territory.

UU1 - Duwibi (replaces Pathfinder)
Unlocked immediatly
Uses the current Pathfinder 3d model and UnitIcon

8 :c5strength: CS (instead of 6)

Ignores Terrain cost
Vision Quest - Gain :c5faith: Faith and :c5science: Science from leveling up. At level 4, choose a unique bonus among four (same restrictions as the current AR system for choice selection).

Removed : Malus against barbarians
[/SPOILER]

UI - Encampment

Stays the same

UU2 - Comanche Rider (replaces Cavalry)
Unlocked at Rifling instead of Military Science
Decreased :c5production: Production cost
Requires Horse

Slightly increased :c5strength: CS & :c5rangedstrength: RCS (range 1)
5 :c5moves: MP

Offensive malus against Cities
Offensive malus against Naval Units
Skirmisher Doctrine
Can move after attacking
Lords of the Plains - When killing an hostile Unit, gain :c5food: Food and Border Growth Points in the nearest City.

UB - Buffalo Pound

Stays the same
Is this something you can write in a tweaks modmod so people can try it out?
 
If so, can we do that in a different thread? This is supposed to be about the Shoshone and it would be nice to focus on what we can change there to improve them, if possible.
I wonder if people’s dislike of the UU would cool somewhat if the skirmisher line wasn’t such a farce? Given people’s specific criticisms, changing the skirmishers wouldn’t dispel every criticism levelled against the Comanche, but it seems to me the only UUs in the skirmisher line anyone says a nice word about are the camel archer and the Cossack.

The skirmisher line is part of the problem, but it's also that the Comanche Rider just isn't that much better than the Cavalry. It's great for pillaging, but it's never won me a war. It's best defensively and that's not something a UU matters that much for because it requires you to be attacked during the window that it's available. At that point in the game as the Shoshone I've already expanded lots and I have no issues defending. Playing Shoshone means your fortunes are really determined early to mid-game. By the time their UU comes around what it's useful for just isn't that useful unfortunately. If you're playing defensive you will probably be fine anyway - also Shoshone play best if you try to make friends with people so hopefully you will have decent relations. And if you're trying to expand Comanche Riders won't be taking any cities for you.
 
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Well the UU could be moved up, they were behind on tech after all. There is no real rhyme or reason to where UU are placed on the tech tree. The Aztecs, have a Warrior replacement, and the Mayans and Inca all have very early game Uniques which fought Spanish Conquistadors, a much later unit. But then Maori, which had fairly similar tech levels to the Native Americans, have a Pikeman replacement, while the Zulu is a Tercio replacement. The Iroquois fought muskets and have a swordsman UU.

So maybe just make the Comanche Rider, a Skirmisher or Heavy Skirmisher. It means it doesn't have to be buffed as much, because it will come earlier. And it would help Progress to have a solid Skirmisher unit. Heavy Skirmisher is less useful, but could still help.
 
I think we should sort out the skirmisher line before we decide on where to place the UU.
 
I think we should sort out the skirmisher line before we decide on where to place the UU.

That's going to take a lot longer though, if it ever really gets resolved. Please let's just do something to help the Shoshone without them depending on a much larger issue being figured out.
 
Is this something you can write in a tweaks modmod so people can try it out?

Both the UA and the unit require Lua, which I'm not proficient at (my own tests on the matter still end up in failures). That said, all the elements of this new kit are already present one way or another in base VP or custom civ mods, so at least I know it's possible :
  • Bonus when acquiring city : China UA
  • Bonus when a unit levels up : Japanese UB1, Corsican UU2
  • Border Growth points instant yields : Greece UB1
  • Multiple choice event : Shoshone current UA, Sumerian UB1
  • Unit replacement with new upgrade path : Ainu UU1
So yeah, it's something in the realm of possibility, and I'll surely talk about it with @gwennog some day (but we're currently reworking Corsica currently, so that would be for the second half of september at least if we really want to try it out).
 
I would rather keep the Comanche Rider than wholesale replace it. Adding units is a lot of work, it's closer to Vanilla with the CR, and I'm unconvinced that replacing it with something is going to make people overall happier, given the art and coding limitations we have.
The skirmisher line is part of the problem, but it's also that the Comanche Rider just isn't that much better than the Cavalry. It's great for pillaging, but it's never won me a war. It's best defensively and that's not something a UU matters that much for because it requires you to be attacked during the window that it's available. At that point in the game as the Shoshone I've already expanded lots and I have no issues defending. Playing Shoshone means your fortunes are really determined early to mid-game. By the time their UU comes around what it's useful for just isn't that useful unfortunately. If you're playing defensive you will probably be fine anyway - also Shoshone play best if you try to make friends with people so hopefully you will have decent relations. And if you're trying to expand Comanche Riders won't be taking any cities for you.
If we were to change the Comanche a bit, I would like them to still stay grounded in the unit's history. The CR has the bonuses they have because they were most famous for being raiders. Maybe raiding isn't a great tool at this stage of the game, so what kind of bonuses/rewards to pillaging could we give Comanches to MAKE it worthwhile to engage in late-game raiding?

Some ideas:
  • Yields on pillage. (Maybe instant :c5production::c5science: in your capital for any pillaged tile?)
  • pillaging tiles with resources gives yields in your capital, based on the type of resource (ie. pillaging a bonus gives :c5production:, luxury gives :c5gold:, strategic gives :c5science:)
  • Pillaging strategic resources gives you 1 copy of that resource permanently (the Comanche mainly were known as horse thieves, raiding settlements for horses)
  • Pillaging a tile gives you +1 movement instead of costing movement (a Comanche could pillage an entire swathe of flat terrain in a single turn with this)
I personally like the idea of +1 strategic copy on pillaging that resource. You can pillage other civs' horses to help transition all your cities to Agribusinesses, or steal enough coal for all your cities to get factories. It would also be handy to keep some Comanches on hand in the Modern era to get a head start on Aluminum and Oil. Could influence who you target in the late game if you are short on something. I also prefer the idea of stealing a resource copy, because you don’t have to fiddle with what amount of yield(s) is good or fair for this stage of the game.

You could roll whatever ability is decided on into Comanche Moon promotion, in addition to the +1 movement.
 
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