Should battleships/destoyers be able to inflict damage on land units?

Should battleships/destoyers be able to inflict damage on land units ?

  • Yes, like bombers do, (without risking damage to themselfs).

    Votes: 113 76.4%
  • Yes, like artillery do, (with risk of beeing damage themselfs).

    Votes: 25 16.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 10 6.8%

  • Total voters
    148
  • Poll closed .

BearMan

One More Turn...
Joined
Nov 8, 2003
Messages
288
Location
The Northpole in Civ4.
Note :

Option 1 "Like bombers" is really : "Only specific units should be able to damage them."
And
Option 2 "Like artillery" is really : "Every unit should be able to damage them".

(sorry for the missing D in damageD etc. in the poll options, but you get the point ;))
 
I do miss not having certain ships being able to bombard land units. I would like to add though, that if a land unit being bombarded is an artillery unit, or a stack that contains an artillery unit, then they can fire back.
 
They can't already? :eek:

Aw, man, that's gonna be my first mod.
 
I think it's important to note that naval gunfire has historically been incredible inept at "damaging" land units. The historical example is one particular Pacific island battle of WWII (I can't remember which), the U.S. bombarded the island for weeks. When the Marines landed, they still got nailed!

One thing naval gunfire is very good at, however, is suppression (keeping their heads down). If there was a way we could model naval gunfire allows the attacker x number of additional first strikes (depending on number of naval units bombarding), we may be on to something!
 
Colonel Kraken said:
I think it's important to note that naval gunfire has historically been incredible inept at "damaging" land units. The historical example is one particular Pacific island battle of WWII (I can't remember which), the U.S. bombarded the island for weeks. When the Marines landed, they still got nailed!

you probably mean iwo jima - not a very good example, as the japanese were dug into the island, not running about transferring from city to city. if you used loads of concrete and fortifications blasted into solid rock, you could hide from pretty much anything WW II weapons technology had to offer.

even with trenches, artillery bombardment can be effective - an example would be the british gallipoli campaign, where at one point barrages from naval units nearly finished off the osman troops. had the british noticed that, the outcome would have been quite different.

units not protected by defensive structures of some sort (trenches, fortifications, etc) under artillery fire are sitting ducks.

on a more general note, artillery in civ4 is more the artillery of the 19th century, which was extremely effective in destroying city defenses - so much so that most european cities dismantled their medieval fortifications in the second half of the century.

the trench warfare of WW I and the concrete fortifications of WW II are not the only examples of artillery being used ;)
 
Crazy talk!

Naval Bombardment is the PREFERED method of wiping out military formations when the opportunity allows. A battleship or cruiser carries more destructive firepower than any artillery company (ignoring nukes, of course). Land weapons don't fire 16" shells. The largest commonly used field gun is a 155mm howitzer, which is about a 6" shell. Naval guns are extremely accurate (for artillery), have longer range, and carry more ammo.

The US Navy is currently working on a gun system with a 45 mile range specifically to allow ships to affect targets further inland.

Alpha Centari probably had the best artillery simulation, as it allowed counter battery.
 
Just to finish - we kept battleships around for 4 decades after they had lost any sea dominance role, specifically for a shore bombardment role.
 
Don't think of the effectiveness of naval bombardments just in casualties caused - think of it also in the context of morale and collateral damage. Being shelled with artillery is a very demoralizing situation - you have to take cover and pray to whatever gods motivate you that a shell doesn't find your spot. And imagine the feeling of helplessness knowing you as a soldier cannot return fire because the guns are miles away...

No other weapons platform can deliver the conventional payload that a battleship can, and even a smaller vessel like a destroyer can deliver powerful bombardments that it would take several dozen land-based artillery guns to equal. It is absolutely reasonable that they can obliterate infrastructure in a square (Civ III style bombardment), and I felt that their unit-damage capability in Civ III was well-balanced because each ship can bombard only once per turn, and the damage dealt is small. It takes masses of ships delivering constant barrages to really wear down land units, which is accurate. I don't think resurrecting the Civ III system for Civ IV would be unbalancing in any way.
 
Yeah, but shore bombardment is monstly useful in destroying the enemy defensive infrastructure (roads, rails, forts, etc). It's rather easy for enemy troops to dig themselves in to the point that shore bombardment just doesn't affect them THAT badly.

I think warships should be able to use their guns to smash city and terrain improvements, and to reduce defensive bonuses (or even impose defenseive penalties) on units out in the open, but have very limited if not inexistant capacity to actually damage the units.
 
I liked that you could use them to atack enemy ships...

On a side note, Don´t you think that modern warships are too small?
 
I just miss being able to rip up someones roads 2 sqaures in like in civ3- In real life, didn't they use destroyers to shell german positions on D-day? I seem to recall Destroyers being key in taking out some key pill boxes that aloud the allied troops to advance...
 
I think they should be able to bombard, but not risk free. I envision that any unit is not solely composed of it's namesake, e.g. "Infantry", but is rather predominantly that unit, but may have support components with alternate armament. Thus, there may be a few anti-ship missiles in the total force, or raiding parties with inflatable dinghies, etc, sufficient to justify whatever damage risk the ships are exposed to.
 
They should be able to bombard land improvements and be able to inflict collateral damage towards units while doing it. Other then that, I don't think ships should have precise aim at units. In real life, those guns won't be able to hit anything that precise unless they are slow.

Maybe they should be able to hit armor units easier then soldier units.
 
Collateral damage to units while bombarding improvements, yeah, I can see that.
 
in my opinion naval combat units should give land units +25-75% attack power bonus when attacking from water (out of transports)
 
IMHO naval bombardment should be able to inflict damage on land units without the possibility of incurring damage to the ships themselves.

It is true that historically naval bombardment has not traditionally resulted in many casualties, but that does not mean that it has not been effective. In many cases throughout history naval bombardment has been proven very capable of lowering the effectiveness of opposing land units by intimidating them, forcing them to stay under cover, destroying some of their supply capabilities, etc. The way I view it is that games such as CIV IV can effectively model this lowered the ability for land units to make war by registering damage to the land units. Think of this damage not as actual casualties, but as a lowered ability to successfully fight.

Also, traditional infantry has not truly been able to damage or even lower the effectiveness of bombarding warships. Artillery, opposing navies, or a pressing need elsewhere have historically been the only real way to force a bombarding navy away from its target.
 
I think that the damage that a battleship can inflict on units and improvements on a coastal square should be reduced from what it was in Civ III. Especially if the unit is fortified.

But it should still be there.

And it would be really nice if improvements could be gradually reduced, like city defenses, rather than subject to the binary destroyed/untouched die roll of Civ III, which got really annoying.

-- Kevin​
 
In today's day and age, air strikes are far more accurate and destructive than naval bombardment. Nevertheless, I'd like to see the option to use the big guns on my ships. Perhaps cruise missiles could be implimented that would allow destroyers and carriers to make accurate strikes (causing collateral damage to all units on that tile).
 
Think about it, do we use destroyers/battleships to inflict damage on land units now?
No.
We use them on cities which happens here.
 
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