Should England have a referendum ?

Pangur Bán;11192067 said:
Marla, you are the one jumping in with these bold assertions. "Flemish" people are marginal in France ... almost all regional diversity in both France and England comes from regional and "dialect" variation, Engish and Romance.

Incidentally, thanks for the ad hominem, but in fact I'm a pretty well-travelled guy. :p
You have to understand History to realize how silly is your comparison of English and French diversity. NO France regional differences are NOT simple variations of a same culture. We're talking about a huge mix of celtic, germanic and latin backgrounds, which are as a matter of fact the three major cultures in the whole Western Europe.

France has been during 500 years a country which was 4 times more populated than England, a huge diversity has grown out of this. You can also see that in the diversity of French surnames. We have 4 times more family names in France than in the UK as a whole.

Just to give a few example, people in Northern France are beer drinkers, people in Southern France are wine drinkers. As far as I know, all English people are beer drinkers.

Germanic influence in French regions is very far to be marginal. It's the dominant culture in Flanders and Alsace which are among the most densely populated regions in the country. But it's also very prevalent in Artois, the Ardennes, Picardy, Lorraine, Champagne and the Free county.

The strong diversity of regional cuisines in France, is also a sign of that high diversity.

All of these are part of the French gastronomy.

Choucroute from Alsace
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Gallettes from Brittany
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Salade niçoise
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Quiche Lorraine
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Boeuf bourguignon
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Paella (Provence)
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Let me clarify this. I'm not writing all these posts because I'm chauvinistic or because I believe France is better, my sole purpose is to open up your minds about a fact you obviously totally under-estimate.
 
But in Scotland they have SQUARE sausages!

Lorne-Square-Sausages.jpg
 
Scottish Sun, the Daily Record, Scottish Daily Mail, Scottish Daily Mirror, BBC Scotland, etc.
 
I'm wondering what bearing the opinion of Scots living outside of Scotland should have on the question of independence. It seems a hard thing to implement their voices in any referendum, but it also seems rather unfair for them to be left out of so fundamental a decision about their own nationality simply because they're not resident at the time.
 
But in Scotland they have SQUARE sausages!
I'm not denying the strong cultural specificity of Scotland compared to England. And I've also said earlier that we do not have something common in France. Brittany for instance only hosts 3 million people in a very small part of the French territory. Scotland represents a third of Great Britain.
 
Does it? More people live in London than in Scotland.
 
Well, the darts is nearly on.

I'm half Scottish and want them to stay in the UK anyway (even if independence doesn't mean a Tory gov for England for ever).

I'd move to Scotland if they went independent though ;)
 
Well, the darts is nearly on.

I'm half Scottish and want them to stay in the UK anyway (even if independence doesn't mean a Tory gov for England for ever).

I'd move to Scotland if they went independent though ;)
I have a friend located in Scotland who constantly tells me there are major changes Scotland becomes independent in the upcoming decades, but I still have difficulties to rationalize it.

Outside the obvious economic interests (oil, fisheries, industries, R&D and universities), London would lose a lot in terms of influence over Europe. Since King James, the Scottish-English relationship has always been dominated by the research of mutually beneficial agreements. I hardly see how a secession of Scotland could be mutually beneficial.

And actually it's the 1707 Acts of Union which have been at the foundation of the United Kingdom. How could Northern Ireland not join Ireland as a following consequence? I don't see the point of a Welsh independence, but wouldn't it be silly to end up with "the United Kingdom of England and Wales"?

All this to say that despite the very strong Scottish identity, the fact it could perfectly work as an independent country, I just can't see it happening.
 
You have to understand History to realize how silly is your comparison of English and French diversity. NO France regional differences are NOT simple variations of a same culture. We're talking about a huge mix of celtic, germanic and latin backgrounds, which are as a matter of fact the three major cultures in the whole Western Europe.

France has been during 500 years a country which was 4 times more populated than England, a huge diversity has grown out of this. You can also see that in the diversity of French surnames. We have 4 times more family names in France than in the UK as a whole.

My history is pretty solid, being a historian and all.

England has had all the "influences" France has had, German, Roman, Celtic, Scandinavian ... much more intensely. Its biggest "foreign" influence has been you guys.I might even be tempted to say that the cores of England and France are more like each other than their peripheries ... but that would be going too far in the post-industrial age.

Diversity of "family names" depends on how names are standardized and when. Chances are your average Scottish region has generated more surnames than most of England combined, that's not got much to do with cultural diversity. France, meaning here "Gaul", has also been mostly unified in one way or another since the first century ad, though you don't need to tell me about "feudal fragmentation" or anything like that since I'm well versed in French history. Like France, England has extreme localism in peripheral locations ... Cornwall, East Anglia, East Midlands, Cumberland, Westmorland, Northumberland, Yorkshire, and so on.

Just to give a few example, people in Northern France are beer drinkers, people in Southern France are wine drinkers. As far as I know, all English people are beer drinkers.

It would depend on what English person you spoke to; in general, this splits in England according to class ... traditionally, owing to the reliance on foreign trade for that product.

Germanic influence in French regions is very far to be marginal. It's the dominant culture in Flanders and Alsace which are among the most densely populated regions in the country. But it's also very prevalent in Artois, the Ardennes, Picardy, Lorraine, Champagne and the Free county.

France lies next to the Continental Germanic continuum, naturally it is more "Germanic" in these regions ... esp. the regions most recently nabbed for the Republic. Likewise, the south and south-east of England is much more "French" than elsewhere in England. This is the nature of geography.

The strong diversity of regional cuisines in France, is also a sign of that high diversity.

All of these are part of the French gastronomy.

Not sure you are following the argument. France does have diverse regional culture ... but so does England. England has more of its population concentrated in large urban centres owing to different patterns of industrialization, which tends to make people think of the country in terms of a few large regional centres (North-West, North-East, etc). But rural England is still there, if less visible. They still prepare mutton dishes differently in Kendal than they do over the fells in Appleby! All parts of Europe have diverse cuisine ... at least traditionally, depending on produce, geography, rainfall, patterns of trade, etc. "National" and even "regional" cuisines are modern nationalistic fictions.
 
All of this is also true with France and its regional languages. You obviously have strong prejudices towards France, but that's not your fault, we all have prejudices about foreign countries.

Marla, this is not nice. I beg you to stop making ad hominem remarks like this. I don't want to be dragged into this kind of thing, so any more I will probably report.

All of this is also true with France and its regional languages. You obviously have strong prejudices towards France, but that's not your fault, we all have prejudices about foreign countries.

You appear to be very unfamiliar with your own country's language policy. No, Breton is not official in France: only French is. France's official poilicy is to spread the language of its geographic core to its peripheries. Sticking up some signs has little effect for anything but confusing tourists. France has not even ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

And I don't doubt you are deeply Scottish, and I've been to Scotland so I know what this means. But your mainstream media environment remains British. And as such, you're naturally affected by prejudices circulating in British media. It's not a criticism, it's just the way it is. Once again, that's the case of all of us.

I am a pretty big critic of most mainstream media here and elsewhere. I don't really make much use of British media, though I watch Newsnight and Question Time (and try to catch Daily Politics). This is not the 1990s any more and I am not a teenager!

Really, there are Scottish media? When I was there it was BBC, ITV and Sky everywhere.

That's true. Scotland doesn't really have a distinct media, almost all of it is structually or institutionally dependent on something English.
 
Have you ever read a scottish newspaper? I challenge you to find much news about England therein.
 
You have to understand History to realize how silly is your comparison of English and French diversity.

You're being unfair, Marla. No-one is disputing the extent of French diversity - you're just being awfully definite about the extent of diversity in the UK, and very dismissive of PB's views. And, anyway, French diversity is awfully tangential to the subject of the OP, is it not ?

PS No-one is disputing you have a better, and much wider, cuisine than the UK. That's really a bit of an underhand blow - and it's far worse if you were to compare French and Scottish cuisine. :blush: There are a few decent restaurants in Scotland, but the general standard is much poorer than in the South East of England.
 
Is that the same southeast where you can't get decent chips and gravy?

EDIT: And don't forget the UK's favourite dish - Chicken Tikka Masala (Glasgow)
 
Pangur Bán;11192372 said:
Scotland doesn't really have a distinct media, almost all of it is structually or institutionally dependent on something English.

True, but most of it trying its damnedest to appear as Scottish as possible. And that's OK, to an extent, cos I don't think any England-based papers tomorrow are going to give the 10 man Jambos 5-2 comeback win on Saturday the acres of coverage it so rightly deserves.
 
^^ France doesn't attack its regional languages.

The mentioned charter is not a solid base to contradict this point as current French policies are about reviving and promoting essentially lost languages.

Now I believe this is totally off-topic and if you want to continue that discussion, send me PMs or start your own thread.
 
Have you ever read a scottish newspaper? I challenge you to find much news about England therein.
In all fairness, that's as much because most of them are complete rags as anything else. The Scostman and The Herald aren't that bad, if still a bit too provincial for their own good.
 
Forgive my late reply

Are we to assume that everyone in the grey voted union, and everyone in the yellow voted independence? Because I don't entirely follow your logic.

It doesn't matter, just say they have overwhelming majority. Basically you said why am I annoyed I don't get a say in what happens to my nation, I don't live in Scotland why should I have a say?. Well why should someone in Aberdeenshire have any influence on those living in Ayrshire? why would they be annoyed if they didn't join them in indepdence, they don't live in the same county what's it got to do with them.

You'll remember that the partition of Ireland, the only comparable scheme to what you appear to suggest, was a product of the deeper ethnoreligious tensions in the country- or, in the more immediate term, the fact that the Ulstermen were openly threatening rebellion if they were included in an independent Ireland- which is obviously not the case in Scotland. Any proposed Scottish state would be based around the existing legal and political jurisdiction of Scotland, an area with the majority of a potential state apparatus already in place. This isn't just like three people in a field are declaring an independent republic, you realise; Scotland is already very much a thing.

It's an arbitary cut-off point, it could just as easily be constituencies, counties or the entire UK, all of which are very much a thing.

Hey, if you want to dissolve the British state as such, then I am entirely for it. Vive la commune, etc. But we're not exactly in that sort of situation, so any drive to self-determination necessarily finds its expression through the imperfect terms of bourgeois nationalism. Uninspiring, and if it wasn't for the fact that Westminster is such a bloated, corrupt, undemocratic mess, I'd say it was almost pointless. So you could say that I'm taking what I can get.

Sure get rid of the monarchy, create a constitution protecting freedom of speech and liberty, destroy the current system. I just don't want you bringing your communism into it, an idelogy that's caused the deaths of 100million shouldn't really be given another chance.

Although I do wonder how you can reconcile "self-determination my arse" with an apparent support for the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom. Surely that sort of logic would lead you to a Europhillia even more ferocious than that of our good friend Winner.

I was expressing disbelief that you hold self-determination as an important ideal, considering the need to maintain historical borders trumps it in your view. (unless the countries name is Serbia)

Ho hum. I don't think it was pointless, but I guess you place no real importance on the actual behaviour of Scots in Scotland. Meh. Regardless, if the post didn't interest or appeal to you, why not just ignore it ? You didn't need to be offensive. It's this sort of pointless discourtesy which has made me such a rare visitor to Off Topic.

There is a particular word for this but I can't remember it, but that is just your personal experience. I could say 1/2 or all scottish people die of cancer because of the 2 scottish people I have known 1 died of cancer.
 
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