Should England have a referendum ?

[Marla_Singer]

That's a pretty bold claim. Explain if you would ...

Explain?
Well, it's rather obvious : we have tons of non-latin-roots regional minorities such as Flemish people in the North, Alsatian people in the East, Britton people in the West, Basque people in the South.

And then among latin-roots people, we have two wide groups: oil in the North (which have been slightly germanized by Franks), oc in the South (which remained more Romance). These two groups are themselves divided in tons of different communities: Savoy, Normandy, Picardy, Burgundy, Lorraine, Auvergne, Dauphiné, Provence, Gascony, Corsica, French Catalonia...

And I don't even talk here about overseas regions of Guadeloupe, Martinique, Guiana, Reunion and Mayotte.

If you take two Frenchmen from Strasbourg and Perpignan they would both consider themselves undisputably French... but the one from Perpignan wouldn't be culturally so different from a Spanish Catalan and the one from Strasbourg wouldn't be so different from a German in Bade-Wurtemberg.

I'm personally convinced it's easier to transcend cultural differences in a Republic than in a Monarchy (though many people disagree with me). My idea is that, in the representation people have themselves of their country, the symbolism of sovereignty being in the hands of "the people" give more room to diversity than it does when it's in the hands of a Monarch, who's necessarily representative of a specific cultural background.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Explain?
Well, it's rather obvious : we have tons of non-latin-roots regional minorities such as Flemish people in the North, Alsatian people in the East, Britton people in the West, Basque country in the South.

And then among latin-roots people, we have two wide groups: oil in the North (which have been slightly germanized by Franks), oc in the South (which remained more Roman). These two groups are themselves divided in tons of different communities: Savoy, Normandy, Picardy, Burgundy, Lorraine, Auvergne, Dauphiné, Provence, Gascony, Corsica, French Catalonia...

And I don't even talk here about overseas regions of Guadeloupe, Martinique, Guiana, Reunion and Mayotte.

If you take two Frenchmen from Strasbourg and Perpignan they would both consider themselves undisputably French... but clearly the one from Perpignan wouldn't be culturally so different from a Spanish Catalan and the one from Strasbourg wouldn't be so different from a German in Bade-Wurtemberg.

I'm personnaly convinced it's easier to transcend cultural differences in a Republic, because the symbolism of it is "the people" in all its diversity, than it is in a Monarchy, where the King/Queen is necessarily representative of a specific cultural background.

This being said, I'm a bit alone to think so in France as many people would tell us differences are strong in Italy or Germany... but independence movements there aren't as strong as they are in Belgium or Spain (which are monarchies).

Most sizable European countries have such diversity. The UK has, officially, three Celtic languages in addition to countless local English dialects. England has 30 to 40 traditional shires, most of which pre-date the 11th century, and have strong identities (at least in their rural parts). And the diversity in Scotland and Wales is just as great. And this is ignoring the fact that most of the UK's inhaitants don't regard it as a nation.

In fact, it's far from obvious to me that France is more diverse, and in fact France's insistence on degrading Breton and other regional languages makes that even less the case.

 

[aronnax]

Two things:

1- France is a lot more diverse than Britain is. So regional independence would be pointless for little communities.

2- It's the Republic which made the unification a symbolic success in France. The problem is that no matter what happens, your Queen or King will always be English.

A Scottish King inherited the English throne you know... =p

Actually, Alex Salmond supports keeping the Monarchy even if Scotland was to secede. It would be a Commonwealth Realm. If anything, I would say a monarchy transcends boundaries better than a republic could. It works in Canada and Jamaica.
In anycase, the monarchy is quite well-loved in Britain as a whole. The Queen spends every summer there and engage in many royal tours in the North as well, she is as Scottish as she is Welsh, Irish or English..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/may/25/alexsalmond-queen

 

[Marla_Singer]

Please, people from Britain, stop to spread that silly idea that France used military strength to destroy its regional languages. No country in the world succeeded to make disappear a language in enforcing another one by law.

To make disappear a language, there's only three alternatives:
1- scatter people speaking it in different regions so that they become minorities (ex: Acadians)
2- flood the country with an external group speaking a different language which would become the new majority (ex: USA, Brazil, Australia, Tibet...).
3- people switching willingly to another language because they believe they have more life opportunities in speaking something more mainstream (that's actually the major cause explaining languages disappearing currently in the world: ex: Africa, South East Asia).

In France, local languages have disappeared widely because of #3. Of course we tought French at school but the wide majority was happy about it because their native language was spoken only by 3 other villages and they wanted more choices for their lives than breeding porks like their parents.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Please, people from Britain, stop to spread that silly idea that France used military strength to destroy its regional languages.

That is a silly idea ... who from Britain is spreading that?

 

[Marla_Singer]

A Scottish King inherited the English throne you know... =p

Are you talking about James VI in the 16th century? That was an entirely different time. There was no democracy at all at that stage so it's a rather pointless argument.

 

[Marla_Singer]

That is a silly idea ... who from Britain is spreading that?

You just did!

In fact, it's far from obvious to me that France is more diverse, and in fact France's insistence on degrading Breton and other regional languages makes that even less the case.

France doesn't degrade Breton, it actually promotes it. Bilinguism is even mandatory on road signs despite the fact less than 5% of Britons actually speak Briton.

But seriously, nowadays Scottish people are all speaking only English as well.

 

[aronnax]

Are you talking about James VI in the 16th century? That was an entirely different time. There was no democracy at all at that stage so it's a rather pointless argument.

Hence the smilely at the back of the sentence. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

The second part about Alex Salmond wanting to keep the Monarchy does. He doesn't think that the monarchy is stopping diversity at all.

 

[Pangur Bán]

You just did!

France doesn't degrade Breton, it actually promotes it. Bilinguism is even mandatory on road signs despite the fact less than 5% of Britons actually speak Briton.

But seriously, nowadays Scottish people are all speaking only English as well.

Marla, read my post again,

Anyway ...

The French government attacks regional languages through the structures it controls that sideline the role of other languages in economic and political activity. France's historic language policies are objects of condemnation across the world, not particularly in Britain. In the case of Breton, Continental Europe's last Celtic language, it is facing death because of French government policy and resultant social attitutes.

 

[Virote_Considon]

2- It's the Republic which made the unification a symbolic success in France. The problem is that no matter what happens, your Queen or King will always be Scottish.

Fix'd that for you

EDIT: aronnax beat me to it

 

[Marla_Singer]

Most sizable European countries have such diversity.

I would say there's more diversity in France, but each groups are too small to be significant at a national scale. There are 300,000 people living in Corsica, 1 million in Savoy, 600,000 in the Basque country... and so on and so forth. That's just too small to really matter in a country of 65 million people.

Scotland represents about a third of Great Britain in land area and about 5 million people. That's a lot more significant than anything we have in France.

 

[Marla_Singer]

The French government attacks regional languages through the structures it controls that sideline the role of other languages in economic and political activity. France's historic language policies are objects of condemnation across the world, not particularly in Britain. In the case of Breton, Continental Europe's last Celtic language, it is facing death because of French government policy and resultant social attitutes.

What are you talking about exactly. How is Briton specifically attacked in France? Tell me exactly how Scots is better protected in the UK than Briton is in France. I've been to Scotland and all road signs are in English exclusively (which isn't the case in Brittany).

The world would be so much better if Brits would stop constantly being disdainful regarding anything from continental Europe, especially when it's related to France.

 

[Pangur Bán]

What are you talking about exactly. How is Briton specifically attacked in France? Tell me exactly how Scots is better protected in the UK than Briton is in France. I've been to Scotland and all road signs are in English exclusively (which isn't the case in Brittany).
.

Well, Gaelic is an official language in Scotland, the government encourages education through that medium, court cases can be heard in Gaelic, and so on. Bilingual road signs are usual in Highland council area, and sporadic elsewhere ... but the language's current heartland is the Hebrides, where there are often no English road-signs because it the language is spoken there only by immigrants.

EDIT: If you wanna see the difference in UK and French language policies, Wales is a better example. Have you travelled there?

The world would be so much better if Brits would stop constantly being disdainful regarding anything from continental Europe, especially when it's related to France.

Hey, you're way off identifying me as some "Brit" nationalist. I like France very much. In most things I'd rather do things the French way that the way the French describe as "Anglo-Saxon". You're intepreting specific criticism of something France does as "disdain" of "Continental Europe", which is a pretty unfair extrapolation if you don't mind me saying. This specific issue comes from my interest in regional languages and specifically Celtic languages, not from any "Brit" attitute to France.

 

[Pangur Bán]

I would say there's more diversity in France, but each groups are too small to be significant at a national scale. There are 300,000 people living in Corsica, 1 million in Savoy, 600,000 in the Basque country... and so on and so forth. That's just too small to really matter in a country of 65 million people.

Scotland represents about a third of Great Britain in land area and about 5 million people. That's a lot more significant than anything we have in France.

It's a natural side-product of our cognition to exaggerate our own differences while underestimating those of foreigners .,. for the same reason you hear people say "all Chinese look the same". Regional diversity of France is significant, and it is in England too.

BTW I don't naturally think of Corsica as France, though I'm aware France has controlled it for 2 centuries.

 

[Marla_Singer]

It's a natural side-product of our cognition to exaggerate our own differences while underestimating those of foreigners .,. for the same reason you hear people say "all Chinese look the same". Regional diversity of France is significant, and it is in England too.

And you prove your point by yourself with this post. France is just not comparable AT ALL with England alone in matters of diversity.

There are of course strong cultural differences between Cornwall and Yorkshire, but it's not comparable with the cultural gap between Catalans and Flemish people. If your cognition doesn't realize that, then you desperately need to travel more.

 

[Pangur Bán]

And you prove your point by yourself with this post. France is just not comparable AT ALL with England alone in matters of diversity.

There are of course strong cultural differences between Cornwall and Yorkshire, but it's not comparable with the cultural gap between Catalans and Flemish people. If your cognition doesn't realize that, then you desperately need to travel more.

Marla, you are the one jumping in with these bold assertions. "Flemish" people are marginal in France ... almost all regional diversity in both France and England comes from regional and "dialect" variation, Engish and Romance.

Incidentally, thanks for the ad hominem, but in fact I'm a pretty well-travelled guy.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Well, Gaelic is an official language in Scotland, the government encourages education through that medium, court cases can be heard in Gaelic, and so on. Bilingual road signs are usual in Highland council area, and sporadic elsewhere ... but the language's current heartland is the Hebrides, where there are often no English road-signs because it the language is spoken there only by immigrants.

All of this is also true with France and its regional languages. You obviously have strong prejudices towards France, but that's not your fault, we all have prejudices about foreign countries.

Those signs are mandatory by law in Brittany, Corsica, Basque country, Provence, Alsace.

And I don't doubt you are deeply Scottish, and I've been to Scotland so I know what this means. But your mainstream media environment remains British. And as such, you're naturally affected by prejudices circulating in British media. It's not a criticism, it's just the way it is. Once again, that's the case of all of us.

 

[Quackers]

Thats absolutely right Marla. I have NEVER picked up the Sun newspaper and seen a headline which WASN'T about the oppression of French regional languages. We love hating you so much!

 

[Winston Hughes]

The rest of the UK would never vote to kick the Scots out, because it's flagrantly not in their interests. Most would also agree that it's not in the Scots' interests to leave either, whilst accepting that they have the right to go it alone if they wish. The whole matter really just comes down to how many Scots are prepared to accept the risks of breaking away (and, in the current economic climate, those risks are considerable) for the sake of ending whatever problems they have with the Union.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Scottish media hardly mentions England at all...