Should Hitler be in the game?

[Depravo]

Stalin was racist, but when he starved millions of people, it was part of a plan to make Russia run better. (Albeit, a bad plan.) Hitler sent people to death camps because of hatred, not because it served a purpose beyond genocide. There is a difference as far as I'm concerned. It could've been Christians that he exterminated, it makes no difference. It's not "Jewish influence."

You could put the holocaust in exactly the same terms. For Hitler, the Jews represented a threat to Nazi power just as inconvenient ethnic and social groups did for Stalin.

 

[Will_518]

This poll is showing support for Hitler is less than that for Stalin.

For Stalin:
81% (or 93%)

For Hitler:
69%

 

[caitlinm]

You could put the holocaust in exactly the same terms. For Hitler, the Jews represented a threat to Nazi power just as inconvenient ethnic and social groups did for Stalin.

I disagree. Didn't Stalin send people to work camps? And didn't he starve people as part of his plan to get the country to produce better? That is quite different than Hitler killing off a chunk of his population in gas chambers because he hated them all his life.

Like I said already, the fact is, Hitler being there would offend people. I know it would offend me and I'm not even Jewish. I don't want the computer randomly selecting him as one of my opponents. If I had to play against him, I would always be out to destroy him even if he didn't bother me at all within the game. It would be a distraction. Not to mention how it would cheapen what he did. If you want him, mod him, but I think Firaxis is right to not include him.

 

[Spartan117]

well obviously i think many of the arguments against certain leaders are a bit biased and i think that people do not even know the historical aspects of both the leaders,stalin and hitler, which leads to their being biased, this is not assuming that i know all about history,taht is not what i am saying,... fireaxis is not going to include hitler and did include stalin because people think that stalin was some "great leader"... and are offended by hitler... obviously people are not ready for hitler in any manner because of their ignorance of history and the environment they grow up in...and the same ignorance allows people to think that stalin should be in the game but not hitler.......
if hitler is a random generated AI then i will have to destroy him at all costs destroying my fun or i will get really offended by hitler being an AI again destroying my fun

i am not asking people to support hitler in any manner, as i do not, but when talking about this issue maybe people should talk in a intelligent manner and not necesssarily say the same dumb arguments while supporting another leader even though their previous arguments of why hitler shouldnt be in tha game apply to this new leader they think should be in the game or other leaders already in the game...it is sort of like contradicting your own ideas...

there are intelligent ways that a person can talk about on whether hitler or stalin should be in the game or not

by the way, maybe hitler shouldnt be in the game because it seems the majority of people are offended, even though he was a 'great" leader for the german people at the time....

hitler in the game = loss of money
but stalin in the game prove people's ignorance of history
i think hitler and stalin both in the game is politically correct as both can be considered "great" leaders.. but nobody is trying to achieve political "correctness", just a fun game and so far it seems having hitler in the game causees people to get offended

 

[Spartan117]

off topic
but that is alot of people protesting " in a day without a mexican" recreation...crazy amount of people and 67% of people voting say the nonviolent protesters should be arrested..crazy

sorry a bit off topic...
no response necessary

morals are opinion and based on people's environment
there is no absolute right or wrong, nor good and evil...it is all opinion..

 

[.Shane.]

I apologize if I missed this in the 64 posts so far, but it may well be that including Hitler would make the game unsellable in Germany. I play an FPS called Day of Defeat that is WWII based and they do not include nazi-oriented images, etc... because they're banned in Germany. I'd love for a German to comment and correct anything I've mistated.

Hitler, rightly or wrongly (meaning that other historical figures have in ways been just as evil), has a stigma that other figures to not. He brings w/ him controversy that others just don't.

I just don't think its necessary. The game is fine without him.

 

[Zhahz]

Ah, the weekly Hitler poll.

Yes! How could the forum exist without the same handful of topics being reposted weekly/daily?

This game is ridiculously moddable (to the point of almost hurting the game itself).

So, Firaxis can omit psychotics like Hitler and avoid seriously upsetting people and if you really want Hitler in your game you can mod him in. Everybody can be happy. Well, judging by the number of times this idiotic issue gets reposted, maybe not everybody.

I personally don't understand why anyone cares which frickin leaders are in the game. Your civ is made up of a UU, some leader traits, and a color - the leader name and figurehead are purely fluff. Ie, data. Get over it!

 

[Armorydave]

I apologize if I missed this in the 64 posts so far, but it may well be that including Hitler would make the game unsellable in Germany. I play an FPS called Day of Defeat that is WWII based and they do not include nazi-oriented images, etc... because they're banned in Germany. I'd love for a German to comment and correct anything I've mistated.

Well I am not from Germany but am well placed in the hobby game industry and somewhat knowledgable about the subject. You are correct that this is the real reason Hitler will never be included and it is far more pervasive than all the "we want Hitler complaints".

A WWII board game from the late 80's - early 90's included a picture of Hitler with all the other world leaders on the cover. Regretably, they decided to have the game printed in Germany (a lot of board games are printed there) and after they were completed and ready for shipment they got tripped up in customs (I think) and seized by the German government. They finally got the product released but there was talk of *criminal* charges and they had to agree to never sell the product in Germany. This is serious stuff and there are criminal sanctions associated with distributing Nazi images in Germany. Does anyone really think Firaxis and Take Two would take these risks to include a short-lived leader that would alienate a decent percentage of their potential customer base? Not going to happen no matter how many polls, e-mails or threads they see requesting his inclusion.

If you need to get your Nazi stomping rocks off there are mods that make it available. Firaxis/Take Two will never include Hitler in a future version of Civ and it has nothing to do with his relative merits as a leader (which renders arguments about his relative effectiveness somewhat silly in the context of this discussion).

 

[ranger999]

I find it amusing that so many people here can't be bothered to learn that having Hitler in the game would be illegal in Germany, and the publisher would like to sell the game in Germany. Nobody at the publisher cares about these polls. Some of the people voting in these polls actually seem sincere in their belief that this is an open issue, possibly due to ignorance of German law and die Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesprüfstelle_für_jugendgefährdende_Medien

or just google on Jugendschutzgesetz (youth protection law).

These threads are so much spam after a while that the moderators should consider the Paradox Plaza forum moderators' way of simply making a sticky, and locking these threads immediately after they're opened. Folks who want to open a thread discussing why they feel German law should be changed could do it in the off-topic forums. I cite Paradox Plaza since they make Hearts of Iron I & II which are WW2 strategic games and this issue comes up all the time.

By the way, look at the fascism graphic. Notice how it's missing the twin-lightning SS runes on the collar? Same principle--the German govt office referenced above might have trouble with that. And it's not going to be put in by the publisher, no matter how many polls get posted, dudes. (Ich denke, dass die Deutschen Forumbenutzer sehr aergerlich werden, da wir Amerikaner immer fragen, "Wo ist Hitler? Warum gibt es keinen Fuehrer? Wir muessen schimpfen!" Diese Amerikaner [nicht ich] vermissen den Fuehrer mehr als die Deutschen...komisch. Stimmt das?)

So after all that...who' wants to take bets on when a poll starts demanding restoration of the Schutzstaffel logo?

 

[.Shane.]

Well, I think we have a definitive answer. On another forum I frequent, this would be labled a "dead horse" topic and all future new threads would be locked and the poster warned to read the list of dead horse topics.

Also, on the plus side, this must be why scientology is not an available religion.

/BIG WINK

 

[botur2young]

where is the option for "no, because he didn't gain anything for German that lasted more than a few years and he left the country in terrible condition, and pretty much didn't do anything that would warrent putting him in the game"?

 

[Sabretou]

I say Yes. You have seen Hitler in all sorts of video games, from dumb WWII strategy to shooters, then why can't one play as Hitler himself? Mao was included and I don't recall Maoist activity being seriously encouraged because of this game, what are the chances the Nazi will?

Besides, we've had mass murderers all along in the franchise such as Mao, Genghis etc. Can we for once look at Hitler from a leader point of view, rather than a He-killed-lots-of-people-the-monster kind of view?

 

[bigotry]

If he was included... What traits and his UU would be you think?

Definitely would be organized, and maybe industrial. Maybe UU of evil scientist or something, .

 

[ChuckDizzle]

So, Should Hitler be in the next expansion?

No. But this is why Civ4 is fully mod-able. If you want a contraversial leader in the game, mod it in yourself or have somebody mod it in for you.

 

[Sabretou]

Traits:

Aggresive or Expansive
and
Industrial

UU will be the Panzer, obviously.

 

[Commander Bello]

I am not willing to respond to all answer above.

Just some remarks: I have stated in the past already that some leaders do not "deserve" to be put as representatives of their nations. This includes Stalin, Mao and for sure, Hitler.
My personal opinion is that it shows a remarkable amount of bad taste by Firaxis, to have included the aforementioned two leaders.

And if you have a look at postings #73 and #75, you will see why they shouldn't be included: just because some people seem to be more attracted the more vicious a certain topic is.

Finally, I completely agree with ranger999 in posting #69 and congratulate for his perfect German.

 

[JesusOnEez]

Hitler woudn't be put in the game for the same reasons that Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosovich, President Mugabe and Sadam Hussein would be put in.

They all ruled through fear (Hitler's SS), murdered squillions* (Pol Pot's pyramids of skulls), and are all people with not one redeeming feature apart from moustaches.**

*an exaggeration.
**mostly

 

[Nefairius]

I find it amazing that people continue to believe that Stalin or Mao had an over-all positive influence on their respective nations. People seem willing to overlook ridiculous excesses because of some vague belief that it helped the nation…

Show me how murdering 11 million Ukrainian farmers with a false famine in order to break their will, and force them to collectivize (which, incidentally would cause famine, is for the betterment of the Soviet Union.

And show me how executing the most intelligent and well-educated people in your armed forces & development firms was helping the nation.

Explain the real tangible benefits of the gulags (and make no mistake about the Gulags, they were not "work forever" camps, they were "work to DEATH" camps, designed to liquidate the occupants) versus not sending millions to die in them.

A bit besides the original point of the thread

“Oh, but Russia was a superpower after the war!” Newsflash: they were already that before the war, it just took the Second World War to show they weren’t a joke.

Stalin did not invent the heavy industrialization of the thirties; he definitely took the credit, though I have to wonder the wisdom of executing economists & industrial management specialists was such a good policy for the 5-year plans…

Anyways, as others have said this entire thread is pointless- even if a consensus could be reached regarding Hitler, the German market prevents this. Yet outside of the legal & economic complications even if they could, they probably shouldn’t, I say.

 

[dpaajones]

...Victoria...mass murderer

Erm, right. A little OTT there.

 

[ZouPrime]

I find it amazing that people continue to believe that Stalin or Mao had an over-all positive influence on their respective nations. People seem willing to overlook ridiculous excesses because of some vague belief that it helped the nation…

I find it amazing that people still believe that this is the issue at end. Beyond the german legal aspect, the reason why Stalin and Mao are in is that people don't take issue with their inclusion. Firaxis won't receive complain because of them. But they certainly would for Hitler, and not only in Germany.

Historical accuracy as absolutely 0 influence on this decision. It's just not the argument.