The Nazis were considered "left wing" by the people of that time

Status
Not open for further replies.
Actually I think there is some interesting discussion to be had here. Fascist ideology has always emphasized to occupy a third position distinct from both Socialism and Capitalism, and it's interesting to discuss if that is just rhetoric or legitimate.

Or to make civman's head spin even further, to ask the question if left or right even make sense outside of liberal ideology, and Nazis certainly were an illiberal party.
 
Not really distinct. Fascism is a capitalist form of authoritarianism, or authoritarianism with capitalist influences. Compare the current activity and China.

J
 
Not sure what you're trying to say about China? It's also an authoritarian capitalist regime.
 
Not really distinct. Fascism is a capitalist form of authoritarianism, or authoritarianism with capitalist influences. Compare the current activity and China.

J

If it can be described as such it certainly isn't the form of capitalism as almost any Westerner or really anyone else is familiar with and recognise.

Leoreth is right in that illiberal ideologies make nonsense of the standard left-right spectrum. Not that using terms that came out of the French Revolution makes much sense in the modern globalised world anyway. Where is Christian Socialism, for instance, or Liberal Islamism, or the Greens. These are all movements that operate within a liberal democratic milieu that nontheless don't belong neatly either on the left or right.

China is a thoroughly illiberal regime and a non-Western one to boot. Our usual conception of left and right don't neatly apply.
 
The thread title specifically includes "called" and "by the people of that time". Now that it has been pointed out that the thread title is wrong you are moving the goal posts.

Not when Hitler was running against Communists (as his only political rivals) that were further left then the Nazis.

In order to believe the Nazis were "right wing" you have to ignore an massive amount of evidence to the contrary. Hitler tells everyone over and over in speeches that he's a Socialist, while railing against capitalism. Knowing all of this and still stubbornly trying to claim that he was "right wing" is complete dishonesty, or wilful ignorance.

Or to make civman's head spin even further, to ask the question if left or right even make sense outside of liberal ideology, and Nazis certainly were an illiberal party.

So, now you no longer believe in a left-right political spectrum? and think the Germans were dumb enough to believe there was such a thing as "right wing socialism." That would be your head spinning not mine. :lol:
 
The association of "capitalism" and "right wing" is a very American thing. In Europe -especially during the time we are talking about- capitalism was strongly associated with wealthy urban elites with whom the right wing wasn't on particularly good terms with. The right wing in the Weimar Republic was largely comprised of "blood-and-soil" nutters and monarchist - none of whom were particularly thrilled with the concept of the Weimar Republic. There were some smaller right wing liberal parties but increasingly swung to the left and center forming the "Grand Coalition" with the Social Democrats and Center Party before becoming largely irrelevant.
 
civman110,

That you cannot be arsed to answer simple enquiries make it obvious that you don't know jack about political theory. It may seem like a convenient strategy for you to ignore that which may cause your argument problems, but in the end you look like an idiot. I and several others have presented plenty of possibilities not to. You may still want to enlighten yourself. I'd suggest read some high school level political theory, as you don't seem to grasp it. You might want to read up on argument fallacies too, particularly points about the burden of guilt. Again, really basic level stuff, should be easy for you to pick up. I was taught about it during high school philosophy. Have a look around, do some research at your public library. Good day.
 
Capitalism isn't a "right wing" value now and the sky purple.
For the longest time "capitalism" wasn't associated with the right wing simply because the right wing traditionally was associated with a defense of the monarchy and aristocracy - none of whom were particularly enamored with a bunch of merchants getting enough money they could overturn the system of landed aristocracy being the source of power.

I realize that may be an alien concept (but since America hasn't had a king since we told the Brits to kindly leave us alone we never really had to deal with that in our history) but the political situation in 2015 is definately not the political situation in the Weimar Republic. Especially since the usual rules of left and right don't really apply to the Weimar Republic because the traditional locus of how political parties identified themselves -the staunchly conservative and traditionalist monarchy- was no more. The equivalent would be if America lost a war to the Soviets in 1988 and the terms of surrender included dismantling the Republican Party.
 
So, now you no longer believe in a left-right political spectrum?
No, you just haven't read what I wrote. I said outside of liberal ideology.

and think the Germans were dumb enough to believe there was such a thing as "right wing socialism." That would be your head spinning not mine. :lol:
Actually, most 1930s Germans, just like people today, did not share your habit of filing politicians into neat little boxes and then use those boxes to come to conclusions about them.
 
Actually I think there is some interesting discussion to be had here. Fascist ideology has always emphasized to occupy a third position distinct from both Socialism and Capitalism, and it's interesting to discuss if that is just rhetoric or legitimate.

Or to make civman's head spin even further, to ask the question if left or right even make sense outside of liberal ideology, and Nazis certainly were an illiberal party.

Some would say that "fascist ideology" isn't really a thing. Fascism is more of a movement than an ideology, since the different fascist groups have had quite different ideologies and there's no single intellectual school that unites them unlike Marxism.

Where a historical fascist movement had had something approaching an ideology, it seems to be cobbled together from mutant strands of classical liberalism, authoritarianism, political pragmatism and populism. That's why fascist movements that were in power adopted a wide range of policies, some of which appear collectivist and socialist.
 
Not when Hitler was running against Communists (as his only political rivals) that were further left then the Nazis.

In order to believe the Nazis were "right wing" you have to ignore an massive amount of evidence to the contrary. Hitler tells everyone over and over in speeches that he's a Socialist, while railing against capitalism. Knowing all of this and still stubbornly trying to claim that he was "right wing" is complete dishonesty, or wilful ignorance.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.
 
They were progressive modernists.
 
Except when they were revanchist paganists.

I think aelf's earlier comment is right on the mark, trying to pin the Nazis down on any consistent ideology is apparently impossible.
 
Thank you for demonstrating my point.

That doesn't mean the people thought they were "right wingers" just "right" in comparison to their competition. It's not the same thing. Context is important.
 
Context is important.

Exactly.
If you're a right-winger compared to your competition, you're a right-winger inside your political system. You mentioned socialized healthcare as a sign of the Nazi's leftyness. Universal, compulsory health insurance was introduced by Bismarck to undermine the socialists and prevent unrest. By the time the Nazis came around, it had been the norm in Germany for more than a generation. It wasn't a left-wing policy, it was just something a country in the 20th (or late 19th) century has, like traffic lights or paved roads or the post office.
 
Exactly.
If you're a right-winger compared to your competition, you're a right-winger inside your political system. You mentioned socialized healthcare as a sign of the Nazi's leftyness. Universal, compulsory health insurance was introduced by Bismarck to undermine the soialists and prevent unrest. By the time the Nazis came around, it had been the norm in Germany for more than a generation. It wasn't a left-wing policy, it was just something a country in the 20th (or late 19th) century has, like traffic lights or paved roads or the post office.

Bah, Bismarck...another one of those lefties.
 
Oh I don't know. I fancy the US is ahead of North Korea in the critical thinking stakes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom