Should Treason During Peace Time Be Punishable By Death?

[Gary Childress]

China reacted to the revelation it had purged a network of CIA informants with a victory lap, boasting that the execution of a dozen spies within the last seven years was a triumph for its “anti-espionage activities.”

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ormants/ar-BBBoSYW?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

I don't think the US typically executes spies any more. I read somewhere that the last person executed for espionage or treason in the US occurred over 50 years ago. I sort of wonder whether that is a good or bad thing. What are others' opinions?

I do sort of wonder if this isn't a ruse on the part of the Chinese government designed to discourage anyone from making further attempts. Maybe in reality they're simply in detention centers or something?

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

What do we do with spies? Lock them up in a military prison? Just curiosity.

Anyway, I think it'd have to be a pretty egregious offense to warrant death. I'd worry that it'd be unjustly used against whistle blowers.

 

[Camikaze]

You're kinda making a big assumption that it's possible to answer the question 'should x be punishable by death?' with 'yes'.

 

[Ajidica]

What do we do with spies? Lock them up in a military prison? Just curiosity.

Depends on what their occupation as a spy was and what laws they broke. If it is people like Anna Chapman, we tend to just detain them for a bit and then kick them back to their home country coupled with some back room dealings. If it is traitors like Jonathan Pollard, who sold classified US signal collection practices to the Israelis -something the Israelis had no need for but which the Russians were very interested in acquiring- we attempt to keep them locked up for life. (Unless, of course, the Israelis decide to make a martyr out of him and set him up with a pension.)

 

[Berzerker]

treason is defined as waging war or helping those who do, if we're not at war it cant be treason

 

[Zelig]

Treason is nonsense in the first place, it doesn't make any sense to treat a citizen worse than a non-citizen.

 

[Camikaze]

treason is defined as waging war or helping those who do, if we're not at war it cant be treason

I'm not sure how the alternative "or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort" is usually defined in the US context, but please note that the US Constitution is not an English language dictionary. The word 'treason' has a broader general meaning, and is likely to have different legal meanings with different contexts. In Australia, for instance, it is very much possible to engage in treason outside of war time, for instance by 'restraining' the Governor-General. Curiously, it appears you don't actually have to be a citizen for it to be treason.

 

[Gary Childress]

treason is defined as waging war or helping those who do, if we're not at war it cant be treason

Where are you getting that definition? When I google I come up with: "the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."

 

[Gary Childress]

Treason is nonsense in the first place, it doesn't make any sense to treat a citizen worse than a non-citizen.

I guess if a non-citizen gets hold of sensitive information and gives it to their respective foreign government, then technically it's "fair game". But if a citizen gives that sensitive information to a non-citizen who then gives it to a foreign government then a special problem is created whereby some sort of reprimand is considered necessary in order to potentially discourage the act.

 

[Zelig]

Why not punish non-citizens equally to also discourage the act?

 

[Bugfatty300]

What do we do with spies? Lock them up in a military prison? Just curiosity.

We used to do that. Now we make them president.

 

[Berzerker]

I'm not sure how the alternative "or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort" is usually defined in the US context, but please note that the US Constitution is not an English language dictionary. The word 'treason' has a broader general meaning, and is likely to have different legal meanings with different contexts. In Australia, for instance, it is very much possible to engage in treason outside of war time, for instance by 'restraining' the Governor-General. Curiously, it appears you don't actually have to be a citizen for it to be treason.

sure, but if we're talking about the death penalty I imagine we're also talking about the more restricted definition

Where are you getting that definition? When I google I come up with: "the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."

US Constitution defines the word (or act)

 

[Gary Childress]

Why not punish non-citizens equally to also discourage the act?

In some circumstances I would think it might create some touchy ethical as well as diplomatic situations to detain non-citizens for spying. We can certainly deport or ban a citizen of another country from re-entry if they are caught spying but punishing them with detention or execution sounds a little unethical to me. If I were visiting Russia and happened across sensitive information that fell into my hands, I don't think I would want Russia imprisoning me for potentially doing the natural thing and blabbing about it to my own government. If they want to punish someone, punish the one who made that info available to me.

 

[Zelig]

Punishing your own citizens for "spying" is the exact same touchy ethical situation.

And you don't have to use the example of spying - consider the murder of a head of state - if a Russian murders the POTUS on American soil, I doubt you just deport him or her.

 

[Commodore]

What do we do with spies? Lock them up in a military prison? Just curiosity.

They usually stand trial like any other criminal and get sent to a federal prison (though not a military one) if convicted.

 

[Gary Childress]

Punishing your own citizens for "spying" is the exact same touchy ethical situation.

What is touchy about punishing a citizen for treason, other than establishing the veracity of the charge? If the citizen committed an act that can be reasonably defined as treason, then they ought probably be punished in some appropriate manner, don't you think? What if a citizen of Iran comes to the US (through legal means) and wantonly obtains sensitive classified information and will knowingly turn it over to his government upon return to Iran. What should we do?

And you don't have to use the example of spying - consider the murder of a head of state - if a Russian murders the POTUS on American soil, I doubt you just deport him or her.

Obviously carrying out the murder of a person of another country while in that country is a whole different ballgame.

 

[Zelig]

What is touchy about punishing a citizen for treason, other than establishing the veracity of the charge?

What makes it any less touchy than punishing a non-citizen for the same thing?

If the citizen committed an act that can be reasonably defined as treason, then they ought probably be punished in some appropriate manner, don't you think?

Well no, because as I said in my first, "treason" is nonsense in the first place, I won't accept that it's real problem as your premise. Charge people with whatever actual crimes they commit, regardless of citizenship.

What if a citizen of Iran comes to the US (through legal means) and wantonly obtains sensitive classified information and will knowingly turn it over to his government upon return to Iran. What should we do?

The same thing you'd do if a citizen of any other country, including your own, does the same thing.

I have a pretty low opinion on "classified" information anyway. Information being "classified" is just a stamp by some arbitrary bureaucracy.

 

[Gary Childress]

What makes it any less touchy than punishing a non-citizen for the same thing?

I could certainly be wrong but it seems to me that establishing the veracity of the charge of treason is largely sufficient for a citizen. With the citizen of another country you also have to establish that you have a right to hold that person accountable for a "crime" which may not be morally reprehensible to them but may be morally reprehensible only to you.

 

[Gary Childress]

Well no, because as I said in my first, "treason" is nonsense in the first place, I won't accept that it's real problem as your premise. Charge people with whatever actual crimes they commit, regardless of citizenship.

I agree that some cases of treason are questionable. If a person is truly a whistleblower and is divulging something to the population that its government is doing to infringe upon the rights of the population, then it may not be treason. It's a matter of defining treason. What if I'm a government employee paid in part with your tax dollars to administer whatever at the Pentagon and I sell secrets to a foreign state for my own monetary gain which the other state could potentially use against us if we went to war? Would you call that treason and worthy of some sort of punishment?

 

[Bootstoots]

In the US, the constitution sets a very high bar for the definition of treason, so in practice people are usually charged with espionage and a variety of related offenses instead. And yes, espionage does potentially carry the death penalty, although in practice it hasn't been used since 1953. The Espionage Act was typically only used for actual espionage cases until Obama started using it against people who leaked information as well, and even reporters. But of course Obama is a nice intellectual Democratic president, so there has been relatively little dissent against that outside of far-left and libertarian circles. (Bush had also used it twice, and Nixon tried to use it against Ellsburg but he was acquitted)

Interestingly, though, this guy, an American Al-Qaeda member, was formally charged with treason in 2008. He was extrajudicially executed by drone in 2015. So I suppose you could say the US does still execute people for treason, but of course it's not necessary to be charged with anything to be extrajudicially executed by drone on foreign soil.