Should you be afraid of Hell?

Well, who should know his limits better than he does himself? :rolleyes:

He's certainly in a far better position to judge that than you are.

:lol: yeah, right. What I am saying is that to know your limits you need to know thoroughly who you are. Superficialy of course you can assess oneself in way which is practical enough to function satisfactorily in this world. And thats something undoubtedly I have nothing to say about. Another thing is if its the totality of ones existence...
 
No one really questions the fact that he exist but one can question the true nature and limits of his existence and its meaning.

I suppose one can. And I suppose I have done. In a way. I've never been able to make any progress on that front though.
 
I suppose one can. And I suppose I have done. In a way. I've never been able to make any progress on that front though.

Everyone has different preferences and inclinations. It would seem to me that what really matters is transcending ones capacity in whatever way one desires. And through that process trying to discover ones "true" reality.
 
No. I'm quite curious.

Alright, here's my response.

A Western, Protestant Christian Perspective


There are some background things which need to be discussed regarding why punishment for sin is necessary at all.

First, God is holy and pure. Sin violates His nature so fundamentally that He cannot even look at sin.

Habakkuk 1:13 You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong.

Not only can God not abide the sight of sin, but sin, being in direct violation of God's nature, cannot bear His perfect and full presence, for to do so is to reveal the absolute evil of sin and to invite destruction in the very presence of God.

Isaiah 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”

Psalm 24:3-4 Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false and does not swear deceitfully.

Job 42:5-6 "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

God will judge every person according to His law and justice.

Job 37:23 The Almighty—we cannot find him; he is great in power; justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Second, humanity is sinful, every human being, and our sin separates us from God.

Romans 3:22-24 For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

We cannot earn our way into heaven by following God's law, because we are not perfect enough to follow God's law. If we could earn our way into heaven, there would be no reason for Christ to die.

Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

When Christ came, He explained that the standard of God's law applies to every area of our lives - not only our actions (do not steal, do not murder, etc), but to our very thoughts.

Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Mattew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This is an impossible standard to achieve. Indeed, those who commit right actions but do not actually believe in God or have accepted His grace will be punished.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Before Christ came, the sins of the people were atoned for by animal and plant sacrifices offered to God on a regular basis, which was necessary because people keep sinning.

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

The sacrifices of sinful flesh, though, cannot purify our hearts. This is kind of where the analogy of the courtroom falls apart as it really isn't like a courtroom here on earth. As God is the judge, He determines the fit punishment, and the punishment for sin is death as that is the only way to remove it from His presence. The punishment is necessary in order to satisfy His holy and perfectly pure nature. Not punishing the sin would in essence be judging the violation of His law as "ok".

This is where the doctrine of the Trinity comes in as well, which I will not get into. To put it simply though, in order to allow us as sinful beings to enter the presence of God and spend eternity with Him in a sinless state, a member of the Trinity, the Son of God Jesus Christ, offered Himself as a "scapegoat", or a stand-in for humanity's sin. As a perfect, sinless being who never violated God's nature Himself, His sinless blood and eternal sacrifice (for when He died on the cross the weight of sin for all of humanity, for all of time was put on Him, and He experienced separation in Hell from God the Father as God had to turn His face from Jesus as He cannot look upon sin) purify us before God.

Romans 5:7-9 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Hebrews 9:13-14 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

God did this because He knows that none of us can live up to His perfect standards as we are imperfect beings. This also lays all of humanity on equal footing, because our salvation is not dependent on anything that we did, but rather on God's action.

This is why Christians should always be filled with humility and love towards other people. God gave us His ultimate grace and mercy, and as Christians it is our responsibility to demonstrate that to everyone around us.

Unfortunately, we are still not perfect, and we still often fail to live up to God's standard of perfection.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

However, if we reject Jesus' sacrifice by rejecting Him, then we reject His substitution and place ourselves back under God's justice. As sinful beings, we cannot live in the presence of God in heaven, so judgment places us in Hell, separated from God.

And, to bring it full circle back to the topic...as you know, the exact nature of Hell and whether there is a Purgatory is up to a tremendous amount of debate within Christianity. The one commonality though is that Hell is a place of separation from God and where we are acutely and fully aware of our failure.

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

That was an extremely quick and dirty overview, which may be ironic given the length of the post. :p

None of this means that people can't or don't do good things, but simply that no matter how many good things we do we cannot live up to the standard of perfection that God requires.
 
I dont think its true God cant look at sin or some such thing. That would only declare Gods limitation not omnipotence. On the contrary God pervades everything and is supramoral. Our sense of sin and evil is only a tool for us to aspire for more harmonious reality and what we call evil is only lesser truth/ hidden reality which is only apparently contrary to Gods existence but in essence is integral part of Gods manifestation.
 
Hell is real, no doubt. If you know how to see it. You see objects with your eyes, you see voices with your ears, you see smell with your nose and you can see After Life with your Heart.

Some people say, "I won't believe what I can't see with my eyes" Can you taste food with your eyes? No. All parts of our body have some ability to see something. And Heart's job is to see beyond.

And Jahannam (or Hell, if you want) is not just the place of fire. There will be a place similar to world but only bad things, like Fire but not similar to fire of this world. There will be freezing cold as well. People will also continue to eat and drink in Jahannam. But the the food they eat and the drink they drink is not something good.

An Ayah ("evidence" or "sign") from the Qur'an

Nay, they deny the Hour (the Day of Resurrection), and for those who deny the Hour, We have prepared a flaming Fire (i.e. Hell). 25:11
 
There is no spirit or hell... show me the evidence.

Show me some love. What? You cannot show it? You can only feel the emotion? Who says? Unless I get inside your heart -- any evidence of you loving someone can at best be regarded as circumstantial, with no positive resolution on the matter. That's why people are able to say things: "I thought I loved her, but now I see I did not".

While you here you can choose to believe, when you are there you would have to experience it, if you don't act about it now. And there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to be convinced in hell's existence. Because the way this life works. One can murder some innocent soul and all you can do about it is to give him life in prison or death penalty. Which would mean you have regarded the death of a guilty as a just punishment for murder of an innocent. No imagine you have 2 or 2 million of victims. And all their unborn children and children of their children. One single wrong act propagates in time and no real justice can be served in this life, this is a fundamental reality about it. Which leaves you to chose what to believe: either you believe life is not fair so there is no need to be fair for yourself, or you believe true justice will be served after this life, this when the test we call life is over.
 
I dont think its true God cant look at sin or some such thing. That would only declare Gods limitation not omnipotence. On the contrary God pervades everything and is supramoral. Our sense of sin and evil is only a tool for us to aspire for more harmonious reality and what we call evil is only lesser truth/ hidden reality which is only apparently contrary to Gods existence but in essence is integral part of Gods manifestation.

We have differing views of God, which is fine :)

I don't agree that God being unable to violate His own nature challenges His omnipotence.

Let's assume, that we can prove the existence of hell, although we aren't able to look into it, for the sake of argument. Should we still be afraid?

I'm surprised at how many people in this thread are not willing to agree to this. It's not asking you to affirm or deny your belief in Hell, but to discuss whether we should fear Hell if it were to exist. It's an intellectual exercise.

From Aristotle, Metaphysics:
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.”
 
God doesnt violate its infinite nature but can transcend it. I can see why would man humanise God to make God closer to himself and more effectively understandable and to some extent more digestable for mans narrow nature but with this he also brings danger of future limitations and missunderstandings.
Thats why some people can crusade and jihad for God.
 
Alright, here's my response.

A [Western] Christian Perspective
Thanks for your response.

This isn't what the Orthodox Church says at all. Here's an interesting link on the subject provided by Mr Burleyman.

But never mind. I notice that you didn't answer my post.

Here is what I wrote, again:

Imagine my brother murdered someone, and I go to the court where he's being tried. I, being extremely generous, put myself forward to accept his punishment. The court, being a highly compliant one for some reason, accepts my suggestion.

Now. How does my accepting my brother's punishment mitigate for his crime? Even if it were possible, he's still guilty of it, isn't he?
 
Thanks for your response.

This isn't what the Orthodox Church says at all. Here's an interesting link on the subject provided by Mr Burleyman.

Indeed, I've edited my post to more accurately reflect the perspective I'm coming from.

I'm aware that there are varying interpretations of the event, but I think that all Christians would agree that

For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. 1 Corinthians 15:16-19

The Cross doesn't mean anything without the Resurrection.

But never mind. I notice that you didn't answer my post.

Imagine my brother murdered someone, and I go to the court where he's being tried. I, being extremely generous, put myself forward to accept his punishment. The court, being a highly compliant one for some reason, accepts my suggestion.

Now. How does my accepting my brother's punishment mitigate for his crime? Even if it were possible, he's still guilty of it, isn't he?

Hrm...my bad. I guess I got so caught up in the rest of my post I didn't directly answer this.

The metaphor doesn't really work.

First, we cannot "pay" for anyone else's sin as we cannot even truly "pay" for our own. Our righteousness is inadequate to cover ourselves, so how can it hope to cover someone else?

The only person who has never transgressed the law and is sinless is Jesus, so, to put it in the crudest possible terms, only He has the righteousness to "spare".

Second, in your example the courtroom answers to the law, whereas God, as Judge, is the law. The principle of substitutionary atonement was established by God when He allowed the Jews to present animal sacrifices to cover their sins. However, as my post mentioned, as imperfect substitutions they could not cover sin for eternity. Christ, as the only person to have ever been perfect, is the only one who would possibly have been able to cover our punishment.

Now the real question: does that eliminate the sin? Does that make the person who committed it less guilty?

Christ's sacrifice replaces our sin with His righteousness in the eyes of God, allowing God to look upon us as "clean." Basically, God sees Christ's righteousness when He looks at us.

It also doesn't make the person who committed the sin less guilty, as any earthly consequences must still be suffered by the guilty party. Indeed, theologians also argue over the idea of "equal vs unequal rewards" in heaven (and "equal vs unequal punishment" in hell), so there may very well be varying eternal repercussions in heaven or hell depending on your actions.

Christians are also admonished to repent of sin continually, and warned that if we continue to live in sin without repentance and striving to turn from it our faith is "dead", and some argue a sign we were never saved to begin with.

In essence, Christ's sacrifice is eternal and limitless. The cross and resurrection allow us to enter the presence of God for eternity, but does not remove consequences or guilt in this life.

Romans 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
 
Yeah. OK.

That doesn't really make any sense to me, though. Does it to you?

This bit especially makes no sense to me:
The only person who has never transgressed the law and is sinless is Jesus, so, to put it in the crudest possible terms, only He has the righteousness to "spare".

Why does it "work"? How does my guiltlessness (if I had it) affect the transaction I outlined above with my brother, and his murderous ways, in any respect?
 
Okaaaay.

So you're saying the only thing preventing you from cruelly massacring kittens is your fear of hell?

The only thing that stops me is that I like kittens. At least, I think it's that.

Just how strong is your urge to kill kittens, though? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being only a mild desire to casually strangle the occasional kitten, and 10 being the full-blown outright mission to destroy all kitten life on the planet by next Tuesday.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why does it "work"? How does my guiltlessness (if I had it) affect the transaction I outlined above with my brother, and his murderous ways, in any respect?

In other words: why does the fact of Jesus' innocence make his execution work on the cosmic redemptive stage?

Is this like the scenario where humanity could have utopia provided it was willing to sacrifice one small innocent child to agonizing torment forever (or something)?

I forget where I heard about this. And I wonder why philosophers think it significant.

Also, this.
 
Okaaaay.

So you're saying the only thing preventing you from cruelly massacring kittens is your fear of hell?

The only thing that stops me is that I like kittens. At least, I think it's that.

Just how strong is your urge to kill kittens, though? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being only a mild desire to casually strangle the occasional kitten, and 10 being the full-blown outright mission to destroy all kitten life on the planet by next Tuesday.

I say that the discussed monotheism and its concepts of good, evil and sin are overly anthropocentric.

As for the kittens, the idea or an image of a killing might be very entertaining, proportionally to its cruelty and realism. Not just kittens, but humans and babies. So, will I go to hell for watching horror movies or South Park (or Faces of Death), or playing GTA having extreme sadistic fun? What if there's a game where, like you described, there's a goal to kill all kittens (or better humans) in the world till specific date, and what if after playing it any kitten (or better human) encountered in real life would excite my imagination about the ways of killing it, exterminating the whole group or species, what if?
 
Er...

I'm reminded of the guy who adapted a lego set for a nazi extermination camp scenario.

It didn't sell. And I think lego took giant steps to stop him selling it.

Oh no. My mistake. It's an "art" work.

Spoiler :
images
 
I say that the discussed monotheism and its concepts of good, evil and sin are overly anthropocentric.

As for the kittens, the idea or an image of a killing might be very entertaining, proportionally to its cruelty and realism. Not just kittens, but humans and babies. So, will I go to hell for watching horror movies or South Park (or Faces of Death), or playing GTA having extreme sadistic fun? What if there's a game where, like you described, there's a goal to kill all kittens (or better humans) in the world till specific date, and what if after playing it any kitten (or better human) encountered in real life would excite my imagination about the ways of killing it, exterminating the whole group or species, what if?
Humans have overall progressive good will in spite of being weak which makes us succumb to our lower nature or to be under hostile influence. Unless one is possed or outright incarnation of darkness in which case going to Hell is like going home then indulgence of our lower propensities help us to slowly work them out.
 
Er...

I'm reminded of the guy who adapted a lego set for a nazi extermination camp scenario.

It didn't sell. And I think lego took giant steps to stop him selling it.

Oh no. My mistake. It's an "art" work.

Spoiler :
images

Hating Nazis, I must say there's much aesthetics in them: the looks, the ideology, the resulting picture of the world under their rule. That's why the media about them is popular, not the morality and history of the period, those are utterly boring.
 
Hating Nazis, I must say there's much aesthetics in them: the looks, the ideology, the resulting picture of the world under their rule. That's why the media about them is popular, not the morality and history of the period, those are utterly boring.

Preach brother!
 
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