Sid Domination Game for AnthonyIII

[Spoonwood]

AnthonyIII and I have decided to play a succession, "training" type of game. I put "training" in quotes, because even though I'm the "trainer", some of AnthonyIII's plays might have come as something I hadn't thought of before, and I might use to my advantage in this game or some other one. There exists a virtually endless sea of possibilities in this game really, and moves which seem rather poor in many games, can work out extremely well in the right sort of game.

We've decided to play on a Sid standard 70% pangea map as China. I've put the settings for wet, warm, 5 billion (the flattest one) with the Greeks, Babylonians, Sumerians, Germans, Russians, Byzantines, and Koreans as our opponents. I intend for us to use a disconnect-reconnect for many things in this game. Though this tactic could get used at levels below Sid, in general, I would not advise it, and I believe that for any level below Sid I believe it generally ends up something like a crutch. It's not entirely clear it works as the best thing to do in non-20k Sid games either (or at least not to the extent that I've used in my games), but plenty of us don't mind using a "crutch" or two on Sid.

We're playing by the HoF rulebook. The turnsets will go 10 turns for me for the first 10 turns, and then 5 turns for each of us after this.

Some notes for AnthonyIII:

1. No building of roads in any of the 8 tiles immediately adjacent to our capital, except for one regular grassland spot. The spot where we put the road, in general, should accord with which direction it seems better to send your settlers. Don't disconnect this spot until we have things set up.

2. For any other tiles make sure that if a worker goes to a spot, that it first chops forest/clears jungle or marsh. After that, before leaving that square the worker will road before moving anywhere else. This rule basically works well in almost any sort of game, and only a few exceptions exist to it.

0-4000 BC Move worker to grassland cow. Spot another grassland cow, and plant 001, which starts on a warrior. Put research at 100% for Pottery, which reads 40 turns. I'm not sure if we should research this or not, but we may as well.

1-3950 BC The worker irrigates the cow.

2-3900 BC zzz

3-3850 BC zzz

4-3800 BC The Irrigation completes, and the worker moves to the one spot directly adjacent to our capital which will get the road.

5-3750 BC The worker roads. The warrior goes out to explore. 001 continues with another warrior.

6-3700 BC 002 hits size 2 and the luxury slider goes up.

7-3650 BC The worker completes the road, and moves to the undeveloped grassland cow. I swap 001 from the BG on the river to the road river spot. This doesn't change the warrior completion date, and gives us a little more commerce.

8-3600 BC The worker mines. Moving the warrior to the mountain, we see an enkidu, and talk to it. We trade Masonry and Warrior Code and 4 gold for Pottery, Ceremonial Burial, and Bronze Working. Research gets turned off. I change the warrior build to a worker.

9-3550 BC 001 worker-granary. The new worker goes to the BG which only needs a mine.

10-3500 BC The cultural expansion reveals too more cows just outside 001. The new worker mines. We spot Dyes, and we have ivory in plains in the fog (we might not get either, and possibly that can work out just as well as getting them).

I'd have the worker mining the cow, finish mining, then road the cow, and then chop the forest near it. The other worker can finish mining and immediately chop the forest closest to it, or mine one of the other BGs, whichever seems better at the time. Just make sure to readjust the luxury slider as needed.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Alright.

3500BC: Look around, hit enter.

3450BC: Warrior explores. 001 grows, lux to 20%. Make 001 use the other cow as well, instead of forest, growth in

3400BC: Cow worker finishes to mine cow, starts road. Swaps 001 from forest to mined cow. Growth in 4, granary in 13. Warrior explores. The Sumerians have started the Pyramids.

3350BC: Warrior sees border. I think it's the Sumerians, though I can't be sure.

3300BC: BG worker finishes mine. Cow worker finishes road on cow, moves to advised forest. BG worker moves to new BG.

3250BC: Forest worker starts chopping, BG worker starts mining. Warrior explore.

Our surroundings:

Spoiler :

 

[Spoonwood]

I'm at a loss here. You said you used both cows on your first turn ("as well" in 3450 BC), right? But, you also said about swapping from a forest to a cow on your second turn. This isn't consistent with what you said about your first turn. We didn't have any cultural expansions to mess up our tile selection. 001 has 2 food left for growth, when it should have hit size 3 already from what you indicated about your first turn. Anyways, don't worry about this, and let's just move on. From now on check 001 every turn and make sure it has 5 food per turn (this actually comes as a good general rule for any city with food like this... an exception you'll see below).

0-3250 BC Since we only need two more food for growth swap from irrigated cow to mined BG. The borders are light blue, and that's Sumeria, I assure you.

1-3200 BC Meet Russian spear. Luxes up to 30%, growth in 4 turns. They lack CB and Masonry.

2-3150 BC Russia now has Masonry.

3-3100 BC Russia completes the Colossus on the interturn, and the chop completes. Now the time for granary completion matches that of growth in 001. Swap from mined BG to the forest for slower growth to size 3 (in this case this ends up resulting in faster growth overall, because of the granary). Mine BG that the forest chop revealed.

4-3050 BC Worker completes mine along river. Sumeria now has Alphabet, The Wheel, and Mysticism. It moves to another forest for another chop. Swap 001 from forest to roaded regular grassland, granary still in 1 turn.

5-3000 BC granary-settler. Use both mined BGs near 001 and the mined cow. Next turn, 001 should have 5 food per turn.

The 1st settler can go to the jungle square in the west just beyond the cow, the plains square on the river just beyond the flood plains (it's next to ivory), the hill in the east next to the cow, or the plains square in the south on the river next to the Dyes. The Dyes might come as beyond our reach. I don't know which one works best, and the AIs tend to grab luxuries as soon as they can, but the AIs having multiple sources of luxuries/resources comes as the entire key to the game. Grabbing cow sites early isn't anything to get squeamish about either. That said, I think I prefer one of the luxuries for the first settler, but I'll leave this up to you.

 

[AnthonyIII]

I'll just comment quick on the forest/cow: I let 002 work the forest the first turn of 002 beeing size 2 and then swapped to the cow the next turn, because then the mine on the cow was finished. I figured 002 could use the two extra shields towards the granary for 1 turn - I just forgot to edit it in the notepad after I changed my mind. Maybe it was a bad thing?

Yeah, i thought it was Sumeria as well, but I'm a little colorblind and don't always trust my eyes. Nice set of turns, will play my 5 now.

EDIT:

0-3000BC: Look around. Enter.

1-2950BC: Move warrior. Lux up to 50%.

2-2900BC: BG worker finishes mine. Starts road. Move warrior.

3-2850BC: Forest cleared, settler done. The former forest worker starts to mine BG. Warrior scouts. Decide to go for Ivory and move the settler to advised plains square. It'll be good for our economy to get our hands on a lux. Lux slidr down to 30%.

4-2800BC: Worker finishes road on mine west of 001. Moves to BG the same turn. Found 002. Warrior scout.

5-2750BC: Worker starts mining. Warrior scouts.

 

[Spoonwood]

I'll just comment quick on the forest/cow: I let 002 work the forest the first turn of 002 beeing size 2 and then swapped to the cow the next turn, because then the mine on the cow was finished. I figured 002 could use the two extra shields towards the granary for 1 turn - I just forgot to edit it in the notepad after I changed my mind. Maybe it was a bad thing?

If a worker has 1 turn left on any improvement, that improvement will apply BEFORE the city box gets calculated. E. G. if you have a mine finishing in 1 turn, you'll get that extra shield on the interturn. So, if I understand you correctly, we didn't gain any shields by doing this here. Also, if you swap from an unmined cow (at 1 shield) to a forest (2 shields) for a turn, you only get 1 more shield. Also, shields in the early game in general (the 20k city in a 20k game comes as the exception) come as less important than food.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Aha, thanks for enlightening me. Think I've played too much 20k.

 

[Spoonwood]

Decide to go for Ivory and move the settler to advised plains square.

No, you didn't place it there. I said "the plains square on the river (emphasis added) just beyond the flood plains (it's next to ivory)". I don't want us to settle where we have it now, because of Bad-tibiria, and I don't personally like 002 that close to an AI city at this level for a variety of reasons. CxxC spacing from the AI can work fine, but CxC spacing from an AI city at this level might just make them upset enough to attack you too early. So can grabbing a luxury (resources also, though we can't spot those) that they want, AFAIK. From the save using CrPViewer I can tell that Bad-Tibiria appeared in 2900 BC. We didn't get that settler until the next turn.

We can go two ways: 1. You replay these turns in this case. Let Sumeria have the ivory. 2. We disband 002 and let Sumeria have the ivory. Letting Sumeria have the ivory might get them an extra luxury earlier for us. I would prefer the first, but I can understand why you might want to do the second. Don't worry about our economy, or us having luxuries at the moment, we will trade for them soon enough. Also, on your last turn you needed to take the luxury slider up to 50%, instead of keeping it at 30%.

On workers, 001 doesn't currently need more shields. So, we can use those workers to develop roads to future cities or develop roads towards the Sumerian borders, and possibly even inside their territory.

 

[AnthonyIII]

No worries, I'll replay from the turn the settler was out asap and post a new save here.

EDIT: I now see I got confused because of Bad-tibiria, and see that the square you wanted me to settle was the north-western square of Bad-tibiria. Indeed that square is a plains on the river. I know went for the hill next to the cow, and did everything else as I did originally. Remembered to raise lux to 50%.

 

[Spoonwood]

0-2750 BC click next turn.

1-2710 BC Check Mapstat and it tells us we have contact with the Byzantines. See furs with the settler. This we can probably grab, so the settler will go out further this way.

2-2670 BC 001 settler-settler. Worker roads. luxes back to 30%.

3-2630 BC zzz

4-2590 BC Plant 002 near furs on a coast, and it starts on a worker. luxes to 40%.

5-2550 BC Mine grassland cattle. Settler arrives on hill where you can plant it next turn.

I can't tell you where exactly the next settlers will best go. I will say that I think the next settler should go and settle on the river south of where the one will plant now, preferably on the grassland. That said, this all depends on where the AI wants to park its cities. The settler after that can go to the jungle spot on the coast near the cow in the east probably. Then settlers to the north. We also would do well to put a city at the 2-3 spot from 001, though we can do that later. We want mostly workers from the non-capital cities right now. I wouldn't worry about a pre-build for the Forbidden Palace at this point, since we might not get 10 cities until our first war.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Looks good! I will have to play my next 5 turns tomorrow as it's getting late. It's too bad the Sumerians are our closest neighbours, since they're agricultural... Hopefully we'll get at least 8 cities up before we are declared on or maybe boxed in. Are we aiming for Sun Tzu's or Leo's by the way?

 

[Spoonwood]

We won't build any wonders. On Sid they have a discount of 40%. So, they only need 8 food for each growth to size 2-7, and 16 food for each growth to size 8-13. So, really agricultural isn't as big of a deal to the AIs, I think, then were we to play on a lower level... even Deity.

 

[AnthonyIII]

40%... That is a lot. Well. Units it is! I'll have the next save up tomorrow. Cheers.

 

[AnthonyIII]

There are 2 reg grasslands spots our new can settle on, one takes 3 turns to go to and one take 4 turns to go to. The three turn spot will touch Bad-tibira's borders, though. Should I move one extra turn? Then only the edge will touch.

 

[AnthonyIII]

0-2550BC: Look around, hit enter.

1-2510BC: Settler finished in 001. Found 002 on the hill. Warrior scouts. Lux to 30%. New starts moving to river south of 002. There are 2 reg grasslands spots he can settle on, one takes 3 turns to go to and one take 4 turns to go to. The three turn spot will be very close to Bad-tibira's borders, though. ShouldI move an extra turn? Worker finish roading mine outside 002. Move to reg G across river.

2-2470BC: Worker starts road. Warrior explore. Russian spear comes out of the fog south of 003.

3-2430BC: Warrior explores. Byzantine spear also shows up. Hmm. What are they up to? None of our cities are defended. Lux to 40%.
IBT: The Byzantines are building the ToA.

4-2390BC: Plant 004 on reg G two tiles directly south of 003, on river. Starts warrior, maybe swap for worker. Worker finishes roading reg G, head towards BG outside 004 to road. Worker mining cow outside 003 finishes, starts road. Warrior explore.

5-2350C: The Sumerians are building ToA. Settler done in 001, head towards the jungle. Worker starts road to 004. Warrior explore. Lux down to 30%.

Attached is two saves, the only difference is where 004 lies.

 

[Spoonwood]

I like version 2 with the settler farther away better. Don't worry about the AI units, they probably just want to scout the land. It'll work better with the 2-3 spot where we'll plant another settler, and comes as a bit safer of a choice. Don't you love how Sid AIs quickly plant cities near you?

0-hit F4. Everyone has an extra luxury now. So, we may as well try and road up to Sumeria here shortly. It would have come as nice to have settled near more of those flood plains, but I'm not at all confident we could manage it here. Swap 004 to a worker, though that might change to a warrior. I feel a bit surprised no one has settled near the Dyes yet. Anyways...

1-2310 BC 003 warrior-worker. I think about scouting with it, but instead I send the warrior to the road spot near 001.

2-2270 BC warrior arrives at the road spot near 001. Actually, I could have put it in 001, and I'll do that next turn, but oh well. Move worker to flood plain near Bad-Tibiria. Sumeria now has one of the other flood plains irrigated and roaded. Meet Greece, who has 2 extra gems. See dark blue borders (Germany) south of Greece.

3-2230 BC Bad-tibira's borders expand. Hopefully they don't want to boot our worker. Fortify worker in 001 and rearrange some tiles in 003 and 001. Plant 005 which will use one of the mined BGs for a turn, and then the cow. It starts on a warrior/worker.

4-2190 BC 001 settler-settler. 002 worker-Palace. The palace comes as a pre-build on a worker, so that we can direct the furs forest chop to 003, which may as well put in barracks or a granary (not sure which) instead of a warrior/worker, so we don't waste shields with the chop. Ur completes the Pyramids. Settler moves 1-2-6 from 001 so that it crosses the river. Two workers stack mine the roaded BG between 002 and 003. 005 will build our second warrior here.

5-2150 BC Babylon completes the Oracle causing a cascade to the ToA. Worker moves to plains near Bad-Tibira, and sees Sumerian worker roading... hopefully this will connect us to Ur here.

If not, we'll want to try and help Sumeria put roads in their territory so we have a trade route to Ur. As soon as we have a trade route to Ur, pay gpt for their silks, and possibly any other luxuries we can get for gpt (NOT for lump sums though). The warrior from 005 should head towards 001. The settler that exists right now might just go as far north and plant somewhere up there. The next one might also go north and plant somewhere, or it might plant at the 9-6 spot near 001. I think the former at this point, but we might find some AI city to the north here... we don't know yet. I hope 003 isn't on iron, but if it does lay on iron, we'll just disband it, and put a settler near to it.

 

[templar_x]

40%... That is a lot. Well. Units it is! I'll have the next save up tomorrow. Cheers.

it is a lot, especially since the discount on Sid is 60% and not 40%
t_x

 

[Spoonwood]

it is a lot, especially since the discount on Sid is 60% and not 40%
t_x

You're right templar_x! I meant to say that the AIs on Sid have a build rate of 40% (which implies a discount of 60%).

 

[AnthonyIII]

Great. Will play very soon.

 

[AnthonyIII]

0-2150BC: Look around, hit enter.

1-2110BC: Move settler further north. The workers are finished mining the road outside 002. Send both workers to BG next to 002. I know you told me not to move workers in stack if not on roaded tiles, but this time they both got there at the same time because they went via the city. No turns wasted. Was this OK? Worker not booted out of Bad-tibira. Starts road. Warrior explore.

2: 2070BC: Settler continue north. Right next the coast there's a nice BG he can pick up. The worker-pair roads BG outside of 002.

3-2030BC: Warrior finished in 005, head towards 001. 005 starts worker. Settler finished. Heads as far north as it can get as advised by you. Worker finished road to Bad-tibira. Head north-west to plains square between our borders to road, so we can trade. Forest outside of 002 chopped, starts roading the furs. Worker pair mine BG. Warrior explore. Lux down to 10%.

4-1990BC: Germany is building MoM. Worker on plains road. Plant 006 on coast next to a nice BG. Hmm... If the second settler also head north, it would have been best if the marsh tile next to 006 were a reg G and then 006 would have been founded there... That would mean more space for 007, as it could settle on the opposite coast. Now it will be CxC... Do you agree, Spoonwood? So maybe I should move the settler towards the Flood Plains... You can take over now.

 

[Spoonwood]

Send both workers to BG next to 002. I know you told me not to move workers in stack if not on roaded tiles, but this time they both got there at the same time because they went via the city. No turns wasted. Was this OK?

You seem to misunderstand the idea here. If you move two workers to 1 unroaded square, how many total worker turns have you spent in movement? Two. If you move 1 worker there, how many total worker turns have you spent in movement? One. So, you were not correct. You did waste a turn by sending both workers onto the unroaded square. It doesn't matter if they get there at the same time. This probably won't matter much, so long as you don't make a habit of it.

Head north-west to plains square between our borders to road, so we can trade.

No, this won't help us trade. We need a trade route (road) to the Sumeria capital of Ur. Where you placed that worker won't help us get a trade route. We have a road to their border city. We need a road from that border city to Ur.

Do you agree, Spoonwood? So maybe I should move the settler towards the Flood Plains...

The 3-3 spot from 004 might work, so we can put a city there.

The other cities can go at 1. the regular grassland near Xinjan which could grab the whale if we were to give it a cultural expansion. 2. The forest on the river at the 9-6 spot from 001. 3. The regular grassland at the 2-3 spot from 001. This would take us to 10 cities. I'll try for that plains spot... the worst that happens comes as that we'll waste a few turns.