Sid variant

[Own]

I think we should raze Hamadan and build our own City. We are not that low on culture to flip to Sumeria. It is easy to defend this Island before AW and use it as a base to attack Sumeria in “remote future. I am not sure, that France is major jeopardy in this game. Our task is “land in radius 40”.
So I think we should start from Greece. Now they are weak vs Babylons and if war continue we have a good chanse to get Greeks Iron and Gems. Also, if there is a land in Black area we may settle there if we keep monopoly on Astro and Navigation as long as possible.
Note, that we may put Galleys at sea if we will have Astro NEXT turn.
Astro may come at 10 actually and I think at turn 13 (390 AD) we may take Hamadan, and consider trade Persia/ France. I also hope that somebody else will get Invention and we will get it for Theology, say.
That mean, that we stay at war as it is and do not trade Techs. Or we have other ideas?

On sid, AIs run away. It hasn't happened yet, but when france conquers sumeria or sumeria conquers france, we're going to be wishing we had more than a few crappy islands.

We should trade techs. We had a chance to get invention and gunpowder, but we may have another if we get astro before anyone gets education. Sad thing is that we'll be getting GP many turns later.

A chance versus main land of Greece? With a musket army a bunch of trebs and longbows we do, but first we gotta get gunpowder and build a bunch of muskets and get leaders from rome, so we can actually land wihtout being slaughtered on the IBT. And by that time we might as well attack france; their science farm land looks just as good as Greeces, and they're more of a threat.

I don't think anyone fully appreciates the crazy number of units sids have on island maps. Anytime a sid gets involved in war, they start building units like crazy, and they don't lose any because they suck at sea assualts and there's nobody to throw them against.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

I agree with own, we need boomsticks and we need a mountain and we need it all bad. Rome needs to draw first blood since they'll trow sticks and stones at us. And then we'll be in shape to pull a handy900 kind of attack on France so they don't run away - too much.

 

[I. Larkin]

On sid, AIs run away. It hasn't happened yet, but when france conquers sumeria or sumeria conquers france, we're going to be wishing we had more than a few crappy islands.

We should trade techs. We had a chance to get invention and gunpowder, but we may have another if we get astro before anyone gets education. Sad thing is that we'll be getting GP many turns later.

A chance versus main land of Greece? With a musket army a bunch of trebs and longbows we do, but first we gotta get gunpowder and build a bunch of muskets and get leaders from rome, so we can actually land wihtout being slaughtered on the IBT. And by that time we might as well attack france; their science farm land looks just as good as Greeces, and they're more of a threat.

I don't think anyone fully appreciates the crazy number of units sids have on island maps. Anytime a sid gets involved in war, they start building units like crazy, and they don't lose any because they suck at sea assualts and there's nobody to throw them against.

I sort of disagree. 24 turns of France-Sumeria war changed nothing. AI causes lot of harm to each other and nobody won. The same at Greek-Babylon war. Greeks razed 1 Bab City and Babs capture Thermophyle. This is results of 30 turns war. Nobody ran away as a result. Our research advantage now based on the fact that we know everybody and only France have "many" contacts. I stress, that as longer we have astro ourself only, the better.
My experience on Diety and sid shows, that attack backward civ that alone on Island like Rome much harder, then "parrallel advance" on Greeks from babylonian side. We even may not fight at all, but only plant Cities on Greeks land behind Babs troops. We only have to have spears-settler ready.
I insist that we DO NOT trade EDU to France.

 

[Own]

I disagree with every point you made from AI to AI wars not causing much change to not trading edu to france, but I'd only be restating everything I've already said if I went on another rant, so all I can say is that I disagree and we should wait for others input.

Btw, who's up?

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

I am, and I agree with you ... but it's Ivan's game ...

Anyone else wanna chip in?

 

[Elear]

lurker's comment: If my opinion counts...don't waste chances. Hoarding techs on Sid is just a bad idea. Also, I really find that AI to AI wars usually end in a victory on Sid, where one will get a unit advantage at some point, due to a small factor like luxuries or resources.

 

[ThERat]

Not having played Sid extensively, but I think own's suggestion looks sound and we should trade education to get gunpowder and then build muskets to gain a musket army. Just sitting back and waiting for the AI to pound each other won't work.

 

[I. Larkin]

Dear Own, it is always usefull to repeat your arguments using different words. May be I missed something in your posts/arguments.
I still think that keep AI at war vs each other is usefull for us.
Sure the price (if) we pay for that has to be wheited.
Also, I did not understand how we can get GP from France.
I think that now we have no chanse now to get GP for edu. We will lose monopoly of Edu if trade Invention from Persia with no gpt, and then Edu will not buy GP monopoly. If everybody think, that now it is a good moment to trade Edu to France for Invention+66+38 gpt and then Astro for GP to France, say, I may consider this step.
Beorn, it is not my "monopoly" game but the step Own offered will create runaway AI (France) via Tech feeding. Sometimes I do that when I ran out of gold, but now I do not see good profit. From another hand this operation
(Edu to France for Invention+66+38 gpt) is not very harmful, so if everybody want it I will not object strongly. But personnaly I prefer to trade something from Greek-babylon first and then go to to France.
Please understand me right: I am not absolutly against Tech trade from France diving up our monopoly. I only say that at the moment better "wait and see".

 

[Own]

I don't think France can beat us to astronomy if we trade education this turn, so we can get invention and maybe if GP isn't a monopoly we could also get that just for education. But if it'd cost too much gold we could also wait for astronomy, I don't think we can be beat to that.

We need gunpowder ASAP! We cannot invade an AI mainland without 20-30 muskets ready. Horses will not do anything except get us a few scientist wealth cities. The extra movement in the type of conquest needed for sid islands does not help, because artillery and attackers all have to be in one stack under our army, and defenders will be redlined so no retreat. Same reason that knights are also useless, they have the same attack as longbows and MDIs but are more expensive and the movement and defense give no benefits whatsoever.

Sumeria will conquer france or maybe france will conquer sumeria. It will happen, I promise, and if that happens it will be very difficult to stay in the game. A few islands with scientists won't keep us in it.

The AIs pounding eachother will result in either both sides losing a lot of units that would get swallowed up in the poof anyway, or one becoming a runaway. One of those outcomes is terrible and one is ok.

How will giving france universities and trade make them runover sumeria?

We all have to understand that gunpowder and astronomy are the only techs we need. Like I said before, cavalry and hwachas will speed up conquering, but only trebs, longbows, 2 musket armies, and caravels to transport them are needed to conquer any opponent with anything less than infantry as defense.

 

[I. Larkin]

Own, please don't panic. I got your point about GP, but as you probably understatnd without Astro it is nothing. The best case scenario if we get Invention for Theology from Babylon (or from America or from Sumeria) and then trade GP from France or Persia.

 

[I. Larkin]

It looks that we are stuck. Until now all our “main line” was clear but now we have “options” for Tech trade. Correct me if I am wrong but if remove “unreasonable” things like trade Chiv from France or Trade Invention from Persia and then try to trade GP from France for Edu there are two “good” possibilities:
1) (My) do nothing until we research navigation but trade Invention to Theology from somebody and (probably) GP for Education from France or somebody.
2) (Own) Trade Invention from France now, research astro and trade GP from France for astro.
My vote is do not trade with France, and wait for better opportunity.
There are many uncertainties like “Peace or war”, where to direct main strike, but they are not that curtail to vote. Let “person with mouse in hand “ decide.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

We need a good chat about this indeed and I won't be able to play in good delays the coming few days so I'm requesting a skip.

I think we need to start by figuring out how doable the Own option is. I am fully behind it but if the AI's do not want to trade, we're screwed. Theology needs to be explored and traded (if possible), then we can talk about GP and see what we can do from there.

 

[Own]

I think it's more likely that someone could research education before we get astro than someone getting astro before we get astro if we trade education now. Also we can build some longbows if we have invention this turn.

I., have you given in on the need for attacking Rome and then France over the need for crappy islands and Greece?

 

[Tad Empire_0_o]

lurker's comment: could you guys give us lurkers a pic of your island & the world map?

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

You could always load the save up and have look.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

lurker's comment:

I think you guys are in a pretty strong situation, frankly. I wouldn't worry about getting joanie good techs. If you give her education for invention and astronomy for gunpowder, she'll then go navigation and banking, probably economics, printing press, democracy, music theory... basically, everything but chemistry and physics. You guys would have a reasonable chance to get a monopoly on cannon's and cavalry.

For what it's worth - I think I'd ignore that little island, too. It's a ways from your most obvious opponent, Rome, and isn't likely to give you that first leader, so what's the point?

 

[I. Larkin]

lurker's comment:

I think you guys are in a pretty strong situation, frankly. I wouldn't worry about getting joanie good techs. If you give her education for invention and astronomy for gunpowder, she'll then go navigation and banking, probably economics, printing press, democracy, music theory... basically, everything but chemistry and physics. You guys would have a reasonable chance to get a monopoly on cannon's and cavalry.

For what it's worth - I think I'd ignore that little island, too. It's a ways from your most obvious opponent, Rome, and isn't likely to give you that first leader, so what's the point?

Yes, situation is not bad but what for we have to create problems for us? For extra Chelange? I repeat my arguments again and again: The longer AIs have no Astro and Navigation the longer they stay separate. As they stay separate our Tech trade will be more efficient (AI will "see " our tech as monopoly, when in fact it is not. My experience shows that when you give up on monopoly very soon this tech become "widely known". France gain wery little from Astro, but other AIs will, and I want it is later as possilble. In reality, Education also very strong boost at Sid. Unis in French core Cities will appear very soon and competition for research will be harder. It is much more comfortable to attack AIs when they technologically bacward and can't respond.

I., have you given in on the need for attacking Rome and then France over the need for crappy islands and Greece?

No, I still think that Rome and France is wrong direction.
About Hamadan Island: It is possiible to capture it with small amout of troops and easy to hold. It is a good base for slave hunting. It will be productive. Our negotiation with Persia will go better after that. In remote future it may help in war vs Sumeria.
Even if "Rome" is main target it is long way until we will be ready to land in Rome mainland.
But I do not understand, why we should be in rush?
Rome has no Iron, so until they have navigation nothing will change in their military. I think they have "unit limit" already.
We also gain nothing from Rome: Cities will be corrupted, no Iron, no new Lux.
Also Rome landing is difficult, because no effective MA possible.
Greece is much better: Iron, Gems, MA with Babylons.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) We need a good chat about this indeed and I won't be able to play in good delays the coming few days so I'm requesting a skip.

2) I think we need to start by figuring out how doable the Own option is.
3) I am fully behind it but if the AI's do not want to trade, we're screwed.
4)Theology needs to be explored and traded (if possible), then we can talk about GP and see what we can do from there.

1) OK. Ignas UP. Sorry OWN UP
2)I think better wait
3)AI want to trade, but do we?
4) Yes, Theology, not Education. So your vote : (1) or (2)?

 

[Own]

The reason why I want to attack rome is not because they are a threat or their land looks juicy. It's because they are the only ironless and backwards opponent (that means that they don't have attack power greater than two). We cannot land a thing on Greeces mainland that won't get slaughtered during the IBT, except an army, which won't get attacked. Alliance with Bablyon won't matter. I promise I promise it won't matter. I have beaten an AWS game on islands, and two of the islands I invaded had two warring civs and I could see combat and really nothing much happened. The only thing that will matter is the fact that greece has iron. 30 muskets will get slaughtered the IBT. Not in rome though...

Well, after 3 pages or so of this, I don't think either of us will give in. On a deity game, this wouldn't matter, but on sid all people have to be on the same page, so we've got a serious problem here. I don't know what to do...

 

[I. Larkin]

Dear Own, I terribly sorry that we can't come to consensus now, but I think that we may postpone discussion for next turnset. We have no chanse to attack anybody next 10 turns. I was mistaken in previous post, you are up.
If you have a strong feeling that you are right, you may execute your plan before team will submit vote. But except you and me nobody said.
BTW, Greece has no Iron, Babs have pillaged both. Very probably they will advance futher and we have to hurry to take our part.