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Sidar Plus

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by xxHammerxx, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Death is basically the sphere of resignation, so giving up and runnign away from a fight once it si started fits them well.

    What would you think if Sidar units gained the Hidden promotion when they retreat from combat?
     
  2. Rystic

    Rystic Turtle Wizard

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    I'd think it'd be better if they got an invisibility promotion that wore off in a turn.
     
  3. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

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    Now that I rather like...
     
  4. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Aye, it suits them well. Perhaps in addition to extra withdrawal for either Sidar race or Defensive trait?
     
  5. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    Hidden when withdrawing sounds really good.

    Can't remember if I mentioned it before, bears repeating just in case. I think Sidar should have their own racial promo. Possibly making them Not Alive, and having some inbuilt death resistance and withdrawal chance. I don't think they really qualify as human anymore.

    Perhaps also, a weakness to Holy damage. Also, it'd be nice if Revelation/Sun II spell could be made to do a small amount of damage to them. Mostly, just to give them a weakness.
     
  6. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Hmm, well, I think they would be considered alive ... atlhough I guess being not alive gets its own benefits. I really dont think the Sidar want either Armageddon or Auric Ascended, so I think they would still count as being alive. That doesnt mean they are "human" but just that they are still defined as "living" I would think.

    I do think they should be given a racial promo. Rystic has one called "shade," and that or something similar would probably be appropriate. Definitely give the promotion a higher withdrawal chance, and possibly death resistance or immunity. (Rystic's promo also gives an immunity to capture)

    I see them as a "potential" force of good, so I dont see the weakness to Holy, although a weakness to Revelation might be useful. (maybe even fire damage, but that seems like a large nerf)

    The Sidar definitely are not a friend of the Empyrean, at least not by choice, although they do seek to serve Erebus in some way. Since they are creatures of Habit, addicted to their routine ways, I see their living quarters as a shrine to their hobby or function, and therefore they see the entire creation as the house that holds their room (Sidar empire) for them to do what they will on and on into eternity.

    So the Sidar definitely dont want erebus destroyed or taken over by some tyrant. They want to be left to their own devices, and if they must take some power hungry dictator down a few notches, by using their skill in the unseen, then so be it.
     
  7. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    How are these two things related? The Scions don't want armageddon either. But similarly, they've cheated death, and live an eternal unlife. As far as I can tell, the Sidar are quite similar. "Men who have traded a portion of their souls for immortality". I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Risen Emperor is an angel of Arawn, or somehow related to him.

    A golem isn't alive, because it doesn't have a soul. Despite being able to move, and in at least one case, think and speak. I see this the same way.
     
  8. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    I dont know if you see them not being alive as a buff, nerf, or simply finer tuned to the lore, although I personally dont see it. I think they are almost like the elviest of elves, in the sense that I used to look at elves before FFH happend to me. As in, the technological masterrace, superior in all things intellectual, but at the same time a great deal of unfeeling, almost like the Vulcans of the Star Trek universe. And in addition to all of this, being practically immortal unless killed in combat. That is how I see the Sidar, kind of like the Eldar, kind of like the Vulcans, thinking, less feeling, immortal, isolationist. And like the Eldar, they seek destruction. They have less soul, perhaps, although I dont think they fit into the undead category. I suppose you could say their is a fine line here, especially since the Scions seem much more decadent than the Haughty Sidar. In fact, the Scions are a race so warped, they are more human than many living races, living in excess and "glory." I dont see the Sidar as demon, golem, undead, or elemental energies, I see them more like a very eccentric human/elf/eldar/vulcan. I suppose those units that are waned are no longer truly "living" although I see all the mechanics that would effect living units to effect the Sidar people as well. In that respect, I suppose living wins out.

    Heh, you are right that Armageddon and Auric do not have much in common, it was my loquatious writing style that was the true culprit. Thank god I dont have to correct my sentences on forums :) ... but its not just sentence structure but paragraph structure entirely. It was more trying to form the will of the Sidar into written words, from my perspective of course. Those two things + they should be alive most likely should not have been as close together, however the way the Sidar look at those two events are from a purely living perspective, as in it would be harder to survive without food for one, and with all sorts of hellish energies flowing about.

    Im no longer sure that they should have any resistance to death damage, because them having resistances to death damage would more strongly imply that they are not alive, while it would seem they are still alive. Oi, there is a predicament.

    I suppose we could compromise by having two racial promos for the sidar. One they start with, and the other they auto aquire at level 6 or so. The first would simply be a high withrdrawal rate and immune to capture, and the second would include immunity to death magic, not-alive, and a weakness to revelation, in addition to the first one's bonuses
     
  9. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    well to put this back on track, we were at giving the sidar hidden upon retreat, and giving them a racial promo which increases withdrawal rate.

    there were some other issues about immunity to death damage, immunity to capture, and not being alive. (in addition to not allowing Sidar units to build the undead)
    all traits of the second sentence are under debate, but we all seem to agree on the first sentence :) (well, from what I have heard)
     
  10. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I see being "not alive" as a mixed bag.

    On the upside, it grants immunity to quite a few AC effects. Makes a unit immune to capture and marksmen, gives immunity to spells like Wither and Death Geas. Although not inherently part of not being alibe, generally non-alive units also have immunity to poison and death damage, and resistance to Holy or Unholy.

    On the downside, it makes units unable to use Courage, Haste, Regeneration, and a number of other spells that only affect living units. I'm not saying it should be done withj the specific intention of buffing or nerfing, more just to move closer to the lore, and see where the cookie crumbles :)
     
  11. Vermicious Knid

    Vermicious Knid King

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    Making them not alive, with a bonus to withdraw and a python effect that grants them hidden post-withdrawal? Would certainly make them play differently. :)
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I still don't like the idea of them not being alive. On the other hand, the fact that that would stop them from becoming manes/angels upon death might be appropriate, as Laroth claims their souls instead (although they think they are just going to serve Arawn).
     
  13. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    well, I think they are alive, cause the younger ones, to my knowledge, still reproduce and expand, ect.

    I think its only after a certain time in their life that they enter the more shadowed stages.
     
  14. Vermicious Knid

    Vermicious Knid King

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    "It's life Jim...but not as we know it."


    :lol:
     
  15. Rystic

    Rystic Turtle Wizard

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    One thing I just added for the Sidar, units with no strength value are invisible within the player's borders. This includes workers, settlers, slaves, and all Great people. It's not in my mod right now, but it will be when I update tomorrow.

    (code)
    Spoiler :

    I did this by adding this to CIV4SpellsInfos.xml:

    Code:
            <SpellInfo>
                <Type>SPELL_HIDE_WORKER</Type>
                <Description>NONE</Description>
                <CivilizationPrereq>CIVILIZATION_SIDAR</CivilizationPrereq>
                <PyRequirement>hideWorker(pCaster)</PyRequirement>
            </SpellInfo>
    
    this to CvSpellsInterface.py:

    Code:
    def hideWorker(caster):
    	if caster.baseCombatStr() == 0:
    		pPlot = caster.plot()
    		if pPlot.isOwned() and pPlot.getOwner() == caster.getOwner():
    			caster.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_INVISIBLE'), True)
    		else:
    			caster.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_INVISIBLE'), False)
    
    and this to CvEventManager.py, under the unitCreated method:

    Code:
    			if unit.baseCombatStr() == 0:
    				if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_SIDAR'):
    					pPlot = unit.plot()
    					if pPlot.isOwned() and pPlot.getOwner() == unit.getOwner():
    						unit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_INVISIBLE'), True)
    

    This actually gives me an idea. What about GPP for Shades? Like a UB for Elder Council, Ancestral Council, that gives +4 :science: and +2 Shade :gp:. Or maybe make it its own building, so players who want an Elder Council aren't forced to pollute their GPP pool.
     
  16. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    I think that's a great idea, cause it makes sense for an "elder" council to be stronger with more experienced elders. Its kind of the reversed sensation of the vampires, because in Sidar society the shades are an open and embraced thing, while the old and wizened vampires are generally hidden away in secrecy.
     
  17. Rystic

    Rystic Turtle Wizard

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    I was under the impression Calabim society had no Elders because they ate all the old people.
     
  18. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    yea ... the only old people are Vampires!! nyar :p (which is kinda what I was saying)
     
  19. Azael

    Azael Chieftain

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    Hmm... hope this project is going strong despite this threads inactivity. Im a big fan of Sidar and would love seeing this breath extra life into their underappreciated race.

    I see the perfect Sidar with the following,

    -Shade GPP
    Its a good way to take advantage of this unique unit without shooting yourself in the foot. They will be more desirable, useful, and plausibly tactical with what i propose later.

    -Withdraw and become invisible
    This sounds to me like a truly epic game mechanic. Makes them hard to kill maintains defensive lore. Should be reserved for more experienced recon if possible. It makes it that they dont need to have immortal promotions to be hard to kill.

    -Divided Souls to all recon
    This is just too fun to me. Not extremely critical, but it does play sooo well into the image i have in my head of these guys. Gives the illusion of them fading in and out for those who see them. Sounds like a game mechanic for a 'Ghost' to me!

    -PERMANENTLY Invisible Scouts/Workers (0 atk)
    This is genius guys. It doesnt overpower them, just gives them freedom to be spooky and sneaky 'observers'. This embodies that idea. Kind of like Loki, you cant really kill him, he mostly just watches. Perhaps they shouldnt be so lucky with dungeon exploring though... can be exploited against hordes, and after all, these arent the friendliest bunch of peeps.

    -Everyone friendly invisible in friendly lands
    Plan to attack Sidar? Better bring a hawk... or 40. Sure they can be killed... but only if you can find them. This actually makes it conceivable that Sidar can do their thing without fear of being hopelessly pillaged by invaders. The concept just... hurts to think about.

    -----i propose the following as well-------

    -Level 12 Recon get immortality potential
    You simply cant argue that is unbalanced. No additional powers, just immortality. Not unlike the Vampire Lord, minus his unbalanced ability to eat people achieving unbelievably high levels. Oh and did i mention VL's can also create expendable flesh golems with all his godly promotions in exchange for... a free ride to the capital? I just think the race of 'immortals' should have a better shot at the whole 'immortality' thing.

    -Shades get an upgrade (Rhyme! :D)/Mist
    They are too underappreciated. These are supposed to be oldest and wisest of an immortal race! They should at least know more then how to add 1/100th of a cities production! And i cant help feeling that a building being the catalyst for the aforementioned MISTS OF AWESOME is lame. I propose that Shades have the power to make a cloud of mist that helps everyone in it, at a cost.

    I am about to explain it so, to spare people my tangent, i give you: Spoiler tags.
    Spoiler :

    Hear me out here, you make a shade, they can use a spell that creates a cloud of mist around the caster. Shades are still weak, they cant attack, and the mist doesnt hurt. But it grants a buttload of benefits! IE: Everyone is invisible, immunity to first strikes, immunity to marksmen, extra first strike chances, and immunity to ranged attacks. BEFORE anyone says its overpowered, they are weak to wind damage! like alot! (mist can be blown away, is it too much to ask that wind attacks blow away/turn off the mist?... im guessing it is) Oh and perhaps Mistforms become cool for once while in the mist too. Like maybe enough for someone to try using em for once.

    These clouds of mist follow the Shade where he goes. Adjacent tiles possibly even feel fear. It is like a moving fort! KEYWORD: FORT. Notice this isnt overpowering since its all defensive in nature. Although it could be a good staging ground for divided souls to help their recon units punch out, close with, and destroy the enemy. Plus it makes turning high level units into shades a potential tactical act instead of just a build-a-bunch maneuver.

    The developers of Halo once said in an interview that you need a proverbial '5 seconds of fun' for a game to be successful. In a game like this, we are talking more like 5 minutes. So heres the 5 minutes of fun i imagine with this is theoretically implemented. Warmongers approach, the fog rolls out. Invisible assassins take out anyone who threatens with wind, a trade embargo on wind mana is emplaced, wind mana is secured by ghosts. Mist will be a force reckoned with while situated at a choke point between realms. The war begins, but the warriors are afraid to enter the mist. Let alone it's ominous nature; none who enters ever returns. All the while, the assailing army cant help but feel that something is watching them. Perhaps they should have thought before waging war against the Sidar. Theyve lived a long time, that doesnt happen by accident in Erebus.

    I could go into hit and run assassins and strangely barren seeming land, void of even workers. But then Id be writting way more then anyone will read. Please consider releasing this! The Sidar CAN and SHOULD BE more than 'those guys who get an extra piece of gold per merchant... pssh'
     
  20. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    I'd call this more of a bugfix than a feature addition. Since Divided souls can already upgrade to any recon unit and retain their soul dividing ability, it's just an annoyance that all recon units don't start with it.

    Sadly, I'd guess that the lack of activity means this project isn't being worked on. But the above change at least will surely find it's way into FF :)
     

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