JoeM
Imperator
I'd pay serious reals to see that!
Silva elected in Brazil
- Thread starter amadeus
- Start date
I'd pay serious reals to see that!
Originally posted by JoeM
I'd pay serious reals to see that!
Well... Joe, I know i'll end up traumatizing you if I don't stop doing it, but since you said you are coming to Brazil, than it's useful information.
The plural of "real" is "reais", not "reals".
Sorry...
Greadius
:yeah:
One final round, for good measure 
Is the danger higher than the cost? That depends on your persepective.
Its like saying because Indian wanted to develop nuclear weapons as a leverage tool against potential threats, Greenland must develop them to fend off threats as well.
Obviously, the political situation a country is in plays the biggest role in determing how realistic the need for such a weapon is, as well as the potential for the need in the near future.
You're trying to create an objective standard of justification where none will ever exist.
There are also no rules against it that would require an entitlement.
However, you must agree that some nations could justify their pursuit of nuclear weapons in the case of self defense, while others are in a position of no external threat that would seem to relegate the effort involved.
Its not a win or lose situation.
99% of the decision making as to if Brazil will be 'rich' or not is made right in Brazil. We've got developed or wealthy nations all over the world, we know they didn't get there in 10 years with protectionist and social policies. You can't expect that pusuing policies that don't put the greatest priority on maximizing development to create results that you expect to attain (equal wealth), and certainly not to gain the identical results.
Brazil wasn't a relatively wealthy nations in the days before corporations, or in the days before multinational corporations, and it isn't now in the days of globalization. Blaming corporations misses just how much of a role domestic inputs play in wealth for a red herring that tries to absolve your responsibility for your own economic destiny.
No presence or lack of multinational corporations could have made Brazil wealthy.
This is the reverse of the zero-sum game: both sides will loose, its just a matter of determing which one looses more.
I said a few pages ago that Brazil had been overinvested in, and that the policies of the IMF & World Bank cause nations that are unstable and 'inflated' econoimc sphere to become more attractive investment targets as they should be.
Then you see capital inflight by every jittery investor and pretend to have lost something that was all paper wealth anyway.
Or perhaps it is recognizing that only because you have a flag and an anthem doesn't mean you're both in identical decision making postures.
If all countries were blocks of equal number of people's equally bordering one another with equal resources and equal diplomatic stances there would have to be complete equality in reasoning their diplomatic choices.
But the world's nations aren't that consistant, and neither are their policies.
Its a trade-off. Developing and maintaining nuclear weapons is an expensive process excluding the taboo and scrutiny that might accompany it.
Is the danger higher than the cost? That depends on your persepective.
Pointless equivocation. The nations aren't in the same circumstances, and can't be expected to act or react in the same manner.
Its like saying because Indian wanted to develop nuclear weapons as a leverage tool against potential threats, Greenland must develop them to fend off threats as well.
Obviously, the political situation a country is in plays the biggest role in determing how realistic the need for such a weapon is, as well as the potential for the need in the near future.
You're trying to create an objective standard of justification where none will ever exist.
There are no entitlements since nothing is capable of granting it.
There are also no rules against it that would require an entitlement.
However, you must agree that some nations could justify their pursuit of nuclear weapons in the case of self defense, while others are in a position of no external threat that would seem to relegate the effort involved.
Most likely. But since this is the development over time through the market process it won't mean that the U.S. will be objectively poorer; our pie will still continue to grow, yours would grow much faster, and in the end of days we'd both be wealthier than we are now, except you by more (potentially a lot more).
Its not a win or lose situation.
I don't accept zero-sum arguements, yet I continue to hear them all the time.
99% of the decision making as to if Brazil will be 'rich' or not is made right in Brazil. We've got developed or wealthy nations all over the world, we know they didn't get there in 10 years with protectionist and social policies. You can't expect that pusuing policies that don't put the greatest priority on maximizing development to create results that you expect to attain (equal wealth), and certainly not to gain the identical results.
Brazil wasn't a relatively wealthy nations in the days before corporations, or in the days before multinational corporations, and it isn't now in the days of globalization. Blaming corporations misses just how much of a role domestic inputs play in wealth for a red herring that tries to absolve your responsibility for your own economic destiny.
No presence or lack of multinational corporations could have made Brazil wealthy.
As compared to the system where the poor live like kings?
As would canceling them.
This is the reverse of the zero-sum game: both sides will loose, its just a matter of determing which one looses more.
Irresponsibility on behalf of the squeamish investors.
I said a few pages ago that Brazil had been overinvested in, and that the policies of the IMF & World Bank cause nations that are unstable and 'inflated' econoimc sphere to become more attractive investment targets as they should be.
Then you see capital inflight by every jittery investor and pretend to have lost something that was all paper wealth anyway.
Or perhaps it is recognizing that only because you have a flag and an anthem doesn't mean you're both in identical decision making postures.If all countries were blocks of equal number of people's equally bordering one another with equal resources and equal diplomatic stances there would have to be complete equality in reasoning their diplomatic choices.
But the world's nations aren't that consistant, and neither are their policies.
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Who said Lula was going to reopen Brazilian nuclear program?
I haven't heard that in Portugal... ?!?
I haven't heard that in Portugal... ?!?
EdwardTking
Deity
I think General de Gaule said that
"Brazil is not a serious country".
and France is the most important country
so arguably it does NOT matter much.
But then Brazil usually beats England at world football.
I'm inclined to assess his presidency on that basis.
"Brazil is not a serious country".
and France is the most important country
so arguably it does NOT matter much.
But then Brazil usually beats England at world football.
I'm inclined to assess his presidency on that basis.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Originally posted by Portuguese
Who said Lula was going to reopen Brazilian nuclear program?
I haven't heard that in Portugal... ?!?
I think it was the great political scientist rmsharpe who raised this issue, or maybe it was Greadius. I never heard it either. Don't sweat it either. Only if you start hearing that Brazil is working with Saddam will it become a big enough issue to intervene with...
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
If he started it again, I assume I would know it in Portugal. I think...
So, how does rmsharpe or anyone else knows that?
I'm affraid I can't believe on that... Sorry, but that kind of stuff is big enough to be noticed and I hadn't heard it anywhere.
If someone can give me a media source or something, post here the link, OK?
Thx in advance.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Wow, if that article is true and not the propaganda I suspect, that is indeed a bit scary. However, if Lula isn't careful to keep his economic promises - which building an arsenal seems to be directly oppositional to (as Bush will find out tommorow) - then he won't last long with his own people. I don't see the Brazilians as a particularly belicose folk; they invented capoeira, the martial art which focuses on "not hitting your opponent". This is most likely posturing by Lula if true; after all look what nukes did for North Korea's aid needs...
Ok, one by one:
Greadius:
Despite I could give satisfactory answers to each and every one of your remarks, I agree with you that its time we end this, otherwise it will turn into an everlasting exercise of rhetoric, because Im sure youd think the same about that reply.
Nonetheless, I just want to state the principle Im basing my proposition: Success, to the nations, can only be achieved by the gathering of two pre-requisites: competence and favorable circumstances. After you GET successful, you can rely on just one, but getting there will require them both.
Feel free to disagree.
Portuguese:
Its BS. You will only find that in US right-wing newspapers.
Just to complete the information, there was never a nuclear warhead program in Brazil. Our only uses of nuclear power were the 2 buildings of the Angra nuclear complex. There is talk about building a 3th installation, but its to generate electricity, not missiles.
rmsharpe is being quite silly in keeping this claim up. More on that when I deal with him.
EduardTking:
That quote is kind of an Urban Legend around here. There are people that say that he claimed he never actually said that, others say that he took it back. Either way, keep in mind that, not only it is a quote that is decades old, its also just one mans opinion.
rmsharpe
Sharpe, really, that link you gave is ridiculous. I imagined we were already over this, but seen I have to take one more turn.
Firstly, all presidents Brazil in the years between the end of the military government and this last elections were right winged. None of them had nuclear programs to be shut down by Fernando Henrique Cardoso. This is not an opinion about what happened, this is the information given by someone that was living the facts. Actually, the most notorious eccentricity of FHCs antecessor (President Itamar Franco) was a project to try stimulating Wolkswagen to keep building the beetles in Brazil.
Second, The idea that the military are politically strong in Brazil is another silly lie. I am voting for 10 years now (and I used to be debater in school for 2 years before I begun), and I never ever heard a pip of military influencing elections, in any sense whatsoever. In fact, the trauma from the dictatorship created an aversion to the idea of militaries mixing up with politics. So forget it, you are plain wrong here.
Finally, I wont even get into the foolishness of considering him a terrorist. Ive done it already in the thread this is absurd. Here is the link. I suggest you take the time to read it.
Finally, for those who understand portuguese and/or are concerned enough about the terrible threat Lula means to the free world to get this translated by any internet engine, here is the Labor's party government program. Youll notice the very relevant fact that in any place it mentions programs of aggression, links to the military (so much divulgated in his campaign as that link of yours claim), and dont use the word nuclear, not even once.
Now, that said, you believe whatever you want to believe, man.
Regards
.
Greadius:
Despite I could give satisfactory answers to each and every one of your remarks, I agree with you that its time we end this, otherwise it will turn into an everlasting exercise of rhetoric, because Im sure youd think the same about that reply.
Nonetheless, I just want to state the principle Im basing my proposition: Success, to the nations, can only be achieved by the gathering of two pre-requisites: competence and favorable circumstances. After you GET successful, you can rely on just one, but getting there will require them both.
Feel free to disagree.
Portuguese:
Its BS. You will only find that in US right-wing newspapers.
Just to complete the information, there was never a nuclear warhead program in Brazil. Our only uses of nuclear power were the 2 buildings of the Angra nuclear complex. There is talk about building a 3th installation, but its to generate electricity, not missiles.
rmsharpe is being quite silly in keeping this claim up. More on that when I deal with him.
EduardTking:
That quote is kind of an Urban Legend around here. There are people that say that he claimed he never actually said that, others say that he took it back. Either way, keep in mind that, not only it is a quote that is decades old, its also just one mans opinion.
rmsharpe
Sharpe, really, that link you gave is ridiculous. I imagined we were already over this, but seen I have to take one more turn.
Firstly, all presidents Brazil in the years between the end of the military government and this last elections were right winged. None of them had nuclear programs to be shut down by Fernando Henrique Cardoso. This is not an opinion about what happened, this is the information given by someone that was living the facts. Actually, the most notorious eccentricity of FHCs antecessor (President Itamar Franco) was a project to try stimulating Wolkswagen to keep building the beetles in Brazil.
Second, The idea that the military are politically strong in Brazil is another silly lie. I am voting for 10 years now (and I used to be debater in school for 2 years before I begun), and I never ever heard a pip of military influencing elections, in any sense whatsoever. In fact, the trauma from the dictatorship created an aversion to the idea of militaries mixing up with politics. So forget it, you are plain wrong here.
Finally, I wont even get into the foolishness of considering him a terrorist. Ive done it already in the thread this is absurd. Here is the link. I suggest you take the time to read it.
Finally, for those who understand portuguese and/or are concerned enough about the terrible threat Lula means to the free world to get this translated by any internet engine, here is the Labor's party government program. Youll notice the very relevant fact that in any place it mentions programs of aggression, links to the military (so much divulgated in his campaign as that link of yours claim), and dont use the word nuclear, not even once.
Now, that said, you believe whatever you want to believe, man.
Regards
.Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Backing up his claims: in Brazil the military is called the "Esercito" meaning exercise and their most feared maneuver is the synchronized jumping jack!!!
Let's be done with the nuclear worries. I want to hear regularly from Brazilians in this thread about how Lula is "doing" at his job...
Let's be done with the nuclear worries. I want to hear regularly from Brazilians in this thread about how Lula is "doing" at his job...
Actually, the term "exército" refers only to the army. The full military will also include the navy (marinha) and the air force (aeronáutica).
They are actually well trained and motivated, but really under-equipped and their paychecks are too small, so the really qualified personnel runs from the military and get jobs in other areas.
About how is Lula doing... Well, he won't be in office until January 1st 2003, so it's hard to give an opinion right now...
Regards.
They are actually well trained and motivated, but really under-equipped and their paychecks are too small, so the really qualified personnel runs from the military and get jobs in other areas.
About how is Lula doing... Well, he won't be in office until January 1st 2003, so it's hard to give an opinion right now...
Regards
.
Greadius
:yeah:
Great, so he gets his job and starts it by taking a three month vacation...
I knew the guy was a creep
I knew the guy was a creep
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Some posters here should know what they are talking about before talking... 
Not to ofend anyone, but some people here seem to completelly ignore Brazilian's realities.
Not to ofend anyone, but some people here seem to completelly ignore Brazilian's realities.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
No Portuguese, Greadius winked! All democratically elected presidents have a waiting period before they can take over of course. Some remain on vacation as long as they can...
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
I didn't understand the idea. But of course presidents always take some time to get to business (although 3 months is a bit long...)
BTW, good Avatar. More nick-linked now
gugalpm
Veteran of psychic wars
And the Sultan wishes and I come!!!
Some points to know...
1- Lula completely changed ideals since its first election. From Marxism/Socialism to an almost total capitalist now. Just looking at the vice-president, from one of the most right-inclined parties in Brazil, you can have some idea.
2- No, don't bet high on big changes with Lula in power. I would really want that these changes happened. Expelling the money-suckers transnationals should be one of the first moves, but as Lula came to power with the riches' support, they won't let big changes to happen. Things will probably remain the same. Unfortunately.
3- As US arrogance will never allow the destruction of their nuclear arsenals, I think that Brazil should build the nuclear weapons. Maybe that will make the world respect us and take us seriously, as we are not monkeys that live in jungles.
4- More. Any article on a US newpaper is propaganda. And yes, the world don't know and don't want to know anything about us.
Some points to know...
1- Lula completely changed ideals since its first election. From Marxism/Socialism to an almost total capitalist now. Just looking at the vice-president, from one of the most right-inclined parties in Brazil, you can have some idea.
2- No, don't bet high on big changes with Lula in power. I would really want that these changes happened. Expelling the money-suckers transnationals should be one of the first moves, but as Lula came to power with the riches' support, they won't let big changes to happen. Things will probably remain the same. Unfortunately.
3- As US arrogance will never allow the destruction of their nuclear arsenals, I think that Brazil should build the nuclear weapons. Maybe that will make the world respect us and take us seriously, as we are not monkeys that live in jungles.
4- More. Any article on a US newpaper is propaganda. And yes, the world don't know and don't want to know anything about us.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Sad to hear Lula is going capitalist but not surprising. The first person most people think of is themselves.
Again with the nuclear weapons, this is just not necessary for Brazil. I don't claim anyone has the right to stop them, but it really isn't necessary. Absolutely no one has it in for Brazil, from terrorists who enjoy the lax airport security and visa checks there to everyone else who appreciate a good carnival...
Again with the nuclear weapons, this is just not necessary for Brazil. I don't claim anyone has the right to stop them, but it really isn't necessary. Absolutely no one has it in for Brazil, from terrorists who enjoy the lax airport security and visa checks there to everyone else who appreciate a good carnival...
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