Simulations, Time and the all-knowing-God

[smalltalk]

Some people say that God was all-knowing, omniescent; that he could foresee the run of history and also the decisions of our free-will. People say that time is to God like a mere point in space. To God everything happend, happens and will happen in one blink. God would know how you are going to act even before you are born.

If that's so, why do we have to live through our lifes anyway?

Why don't we suddenly pop into existence in hell, heaven or purgatory or whatever?

If God knows everything that happened before it really happens, he could spare us our (measly or brave or wondrous or magnificent) time of existence. We would find ourselve in the afterlife and God would be telling us: "According to my foresight, you are eternally damned." or "Devine Calculations have revealed that salvation is yours."

Why does God actually have to run the "Reality Simulation" of the universe, when he already knows how it will end?

Why do we have to live through our lifes, when God already knows that we are saved or doomed?

 

[Baleog]

Next time I see him, I'll ask him.

EDIT
Kind of strange that some of wha you said could be applied to watching videos at home.

 

[allan2]

Does it actually say in the Bible that God is omniscient? I read the whole thing through once, but there is no passage that rings a bell in that regard.

 

[CivCube]

Originally posted by smalltalk

Why do we have to live through our lifes, when God already knows that we are saved or doomed?

I don't think it works that way. God is not testing us for our eternal integrity; rather, She wants us to enjoy our experiences and become closer to Her.

 

[Shadylookin]

I don't know if God knows everything that will happen, I think he can make a pretty good guess, but like you say he gave us free will and despite the past our future is totaly open.

 

[CurtSibling]

Again, nobody really knows.

I stick to my guns, the idea is of god is human-invented, in my opinion.

Once we kick the bucket then we might find out, or maybe we won't!

What if our concept of god is really a puppet on even higher strings?

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by smalltalk
Some people say that God was all-knowing, omniescent; that he could foresee the run of history and also the decisions of our free-will. People say that time is to God like a mere point in space. To God everything happend, happens and will happen in one blink. God would know how you are going to act even before you are born.

If that's so, why do we have to live through our lifes anyway?

Why don't we suddenly pop into existence in hell, heaven or purgatory or whatever?

Emphasis mine. Don't you see? God created us so we can choose our path - just because he knows what we are going to choose doesn't mean we don't have the freedom of choice. Anyway, God created us and gave us free will so we could choose to join his side - turning on the "Universe Simulation" would ruin that.

EDIT: Why do we live our lives when how we will end up is already known? Simple. ITS FUN. We live life because from life comes PLEASURE (as well as pain), and its sure better than not existing at all, IMO.

 

[Dralix]

Originally posted by cgannon64
Emphasis mine. Don't you see? God created us so we can choose our path - just because he knows what we are going to choose doesn't mean we don't have the freedom of choice.

Some would argue just that. If it is already known what path we are to take, then could you not say that the path has been pre-determined, and hence that we do not have free will?

 

[Colonel Kraken]

You forgot one major aspect of God. He is a god. He loves to be worshipped. He wanted a creation after his own image that would choose to worship Him. He has countless hosts of angels to dote over Him and do as He asks. But they do it because it is their nature to do it; they're angels. We, as humans in God's own image, choose whether or not to worship the Creator.

We love our dogs and they dote over us because, well, they're dogs. But our children, especially when they're older, choose whether or not to truly love us. We, as parents, covet this more than anything.

Hope this helps.

--CK

 

[smalltalk]

Does it actually say in the Bible that God is omniscient?

No, it does not. But some people won't acknowledge that.

despite the past our future is totaly open

We will see to that ...

What if our concept of god is really a puppet on even higher strings?

Obviously, even God is bound to inevitable truth. Logic can not be altered by God.
2+2=4;
dispite of God, Allah or every wicked demon.

 

[allan2]

My question before was a serious one: within the context of the faith, IS God really omniscient, in terms of knowing the certain outcome of everything? I don't think the Bible states this one way or the other. I think the Bible states He is very powerful, very wise, and very just, and He is aware of all things AS they happen. It may even mention Him being aware of our thoughts and desires. However, is He also aware of the future with certainty, or does His wisdom allow Him, rather, to make educated guesses that would be beyond our human ability to do the same? But can we humans sometimes truly delight or disappoint Him with the free will we have?

Just curious--are those in the faith ASSUMING absolute precognition, or is it "documented" in scripture?

 

[CivCube]

Originally posted by smalltalk


Obviously, even God is bound to inevitable truth. Logic can not be altered by God.
2+2=4;
dispite of God, Allah or every wicked demon.

This is only true if there is only one universe. Scientists are beginning to wonder otherwise.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

It's irrelevant weather or not God is omnisciend or omnipotent because we are at a whole different level. God is infinite and we are not. This is the border we cannot cross (but to which we can strive). My conception of divinity is pantheistic (that is, god is equivalent to the universe. We, as part of the universe are part of God). The universe exists to know itself and to organize itself. In the grand scheme of things life is the organizing principle, while intelligence is the means to spread this order. For me it now makes a lot of sence.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by smalltalk
Obviously, even God is bound to inevitable truth. Logic can not be altered by God.
2+2=4;
dispite of God, Allah or every wicked demon.

Algebra can do it, does that mean Algebra is more mighty than God, Allah and every wicked demon?

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Dralix


Some would argue just that. If it is already known what path we are to take, then could you not say that the path has been pre-determined, and hence that we do not have free will?

But the path hasn't been pre-determined. Let me use a long example:

You, as a human, can probably predict what a cat is going to do when you put food out for the cat (and the cat is hungry). The cat will eat the food. Just because you knew that the cat will eat the food doesn't mean that the cat didn't make the choice to eat.

Now up the scale. God sees you making an important choice - say, to marry someone. Because God is infinetely more intelligent then you, he can predict - or know - what you are going to do. Does that mean you still didn't make the choice? No.

Now, if you want to say that God exists outside of time - which I beleive - then its very hard to comprehend for us little humans. What is it like to exist outside of time? What is it like to see the entire universe not as a series of moments in a sequence, as...something else?

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by smalltalk

2+2=4

Is not an absolute. Mathmatically it is, but not in physics (at least according to my physics teacher, who has yet to make me understand it).

 

[Perfection]

Sure, you take a 200,000 kps object and launch an object at 200,000 kps, it doesn't go 400,000kps, because it violates the theory of realitivity.

 

[Straybow]

[allan2] "Does it actually say in the Bible that God is omniscient?"

O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
…Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
…Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them… —Ps 139

Foreknowledge is not determinism. After a few moments of watching the ball an outfielder knows where to run to intercept it. That knowledge does not "make" the ball go there, it is external to the forces of gravity and air resistance at work. That knowledge does not "make" him get there, either, as it may be out of his range.

There are many times when God knows where you are going, and He meets you there in order to accomplish His will. You may recognize Him or not, you may cooperate or not.

 

[Straybow]

"Sure, you take a 200,000 kps object and launch an object at 200,000 kps, it doesn't go 400,000kps, because it violates the theory of realitivity."

Silly rabbi, kicks are for Trids!

That doesn't mean 200k + 200k != 400k, it merely means Newtonian addition doesn't accurately model the results of your experiment. When you apply the Lorenz transformations the fundamentals of math are at work just the same.

 

[Perfection]

Exactly, there's a difference between physics mathematical theory and results. Since a theory is just a pattern recognizing construct, the results are not based on theory but on the consistancy of the pattern.