Sirp's Training Day Game for Aspiring Monarchs

[Renata]

edited: ack, if you saw what I wrote before, ignore it. Misunderstood what was meant by 'zero-sum' and explained giving away engineering wouldn't have been. But the explanation was irrelevant.

Good points, Todd and Sirp - thanks, I hadn't thought about it quite that way before.

(and now I return you to my original post)

You're absolutely right about printing press; I knew it was silly when I chose it. Happily we'll only lose one turn of research by switching now.

Oh, and don't spare the whip, I just like to whine.

Renata <-- now suffering from insomnia (See? whine whine whine)

 

[Sirp]

Don't spare the whip? I didn't think that I did

Oh and yeah, if anyone doesn't know what 'zero-sum' means, I'd be happy to explain.

-Sirp.

 

[Sirp]

ok, some more comments now I've looked at the save:

- Pharsalos is stuck at size 10 for lack of food. Mycenae is taking up its tiles. Marathon's work pattern could be moved westward, allowing Mycenae to also move westward with its citizens, and giving Pharsalos some fertile tiles to work on. Athens could also have its citizens optimized for more shields, and to allow Pharsalos to get access to an extra hill.

- We have two knights in Tlacopan - on our west coast - that I suggest diverting east immediately to counter the Roman threat. We could also move the knight from Tlaxcala over. Note that we can get the advantage of first strike by giving Caesar an ultimatum to leave. Whatever way you do it, make sure *he* declares war on us. Also note that it is possible he is actually going for Babylon.

- Now that we have seen how puny our opponents are, and we're enjoying our golden age, I suggest we aim to get *every* middle age wonder, except Shakespeare's, and perhaps not Leonardo's. I suggest cancelling the bank which is almost complete in Athens in favor of Sun Tzu's Art of War, which is very useful in a warlike game, like we probably aim to play from here on out. If you think that a bank would be really nice to have in Athens, well, look at our current cash flow and you'll see that it's not the most pressing of needs. We might be able to wrest Sun Tzu's from our rivals!

Other than these and previous comments, we're doing great

-Sirp.

 

[Renata]

*Ahem* I did mention that Athens was not yet optimized for shields in my turn report. That was deliberate - the whole ten turns I was in a situation where optimized/not optimized made no difference to the due date on what I was building, so I figured I might as well fill up the food box. I'm not sure if Athens can go to its max shield potential and still have a hill free for Pharsalos or not; I remember looking at that but can't remember which way it went.

I *did* miss that Pharsalos was in growth limbo.

So you want to go warmongering? Sounds good to me - there will be more to learn doing that, even against cruddy opponents, than just sitting back and cruising to a space launch.

Regarding Sun Tzu's: all the other civs have started it already, and the Aztecs were first to start by a fairly large margin. (I see to remember Rome was building something, too, in addition to Sun Tzu's and started before then - only thing it could possibly be is the Great Wall, though, and I don't remember that showing up in the build queue. Might be worth investigating a few cities too see what sort of timing we're dealing with. Also, at least one civ has Theology already that I noticed. That number will certainly increase by the time Sun Tzu's is built, even if we can beat the Aztecs to it.

Renata

 

[Matt_G]

Originally posted by Sirp
Yes, CivGeneral is up now, although he hasn't been around, so I'm not sure if he's awol. So Matt_g, if you'd like, you are welcome to play a shadow, and if CG doesn't show up it can count as the real thing. If he does show up, then I'll still comment on your turn as a shadow.

-Sirp.

Sounds good. I will do this tonight, after work.

 

[Stormrider]

And so the peace loving nation of Greece was forced into war to free the people of the world from the tyranny that oppressed them. Or maybe we are trying to free them from their worldly possessions? Either way works for me.

Stormrider

 

[Sirp]

Renata: Yes you did mention that about Athens, although my comments were kinda half-a-critique and half-suggestions-to-next-player. Since I suggested nixing the bank in Athens in favor of a Wonder, maximizing shields would definitely be the best thing to do. But yes, your moves were fine in that regard.

I saw that Pharsalos was in growth limbo immediately upon looking at it, since it came up in yellow. Being able to see these things immediately is always a good skill to acquire.

Once Athens does fill up its food box, we could consider skimming a worker off it. It'd then spend just one turn at size 11. Notice how even though we have around 40 workers, it's *still* not really enough? You can almost never have too many workers.

If the Aztecs get Sun Tzu's, that'd be even better than us getting it. Our peace deal with them only has 10 turns left on it.

Yes we may want to switch Themopylae over to Sistine's. It can have it due in 13 turns, and Athens can likewise have Sun Tzu's due in 13 turns. We can possibly snap the cascade that way. But yeah, certainly check out the Aztecs. If they have it due in not so long, let them get it, but don't let them enjoy it for long

-Sirp.

 

[Shevek]

Originally posted by Sirp

...researching Printing Press? Why oh why? Printing Press has ZERO use to us. Zilch, nada, none.

Does that mean there is no value to getting to democracy asap??
I understand that it is very important to get to Republic quickly and also assumed the same was true for democracy.
I almost always go for Printing Press --> Democracy in my games. But then again, I do not win on monarch (yet).

Also Sirp, I would like to take up your offer to explain "Zero sum" game. That has me puzzled.

BTW, great game so far.
Actually, you guys ( and girls) are almost too good. Monarch looks easy now. I had expected some more nailbiting situations and some insights on how to deal with an overpowering AI.

Shevek

Edited typing error

 

[Sirp]

Shevek, Democracy in Civilization III holds little value. It's not that much better than Republic, and you get crippled by war weariness if you go to war in it. For a non-religious civilization like us, we will lose about 5 turns in anarchy, and this will not be worth the mild bonuses that Democracy gives us. It's generally best to limit yourself to one period of anarchy per game.

You could *maybe* go for Democracy if you're a religious civilization, and you're planning to play peacefully. I never even consider it otherwise.

Remember, there are only three good governments in Civilization III:

- Despotism, because it doesn't require any technologies to be in, and you need to start in something!
- Anarchy, because if you're in it you must be on your way to...
- Republic, which is the all-round best government type!

A 'zero-sum' game is a game in which any move advantaging one player will disadvantage other players by an equivalent amount. In the real world, which is not zero-sum, everyone can win. All our civilizations could become great and powerful and prosperous and happy and live in peace. Everyone would be better off and happy than when we started.

Not so in Civilization III (at least how we're playing it). Our aim is to win. So if another civilization is happy, that is *bad* for us, because we don't want them happy. We want to defeat them.

In such a game, we don't mind if the technological pace goes slower, just as long as we have the advantage. Us having more tech than our opponents is more important than the actual overall tech pace.

People who play for highest score aren't always playing a zero-sum game against their rivals. Certain moves can benefit them *and* benefit their rivals. We are playing a zero-sum game, and we don't care if we win happily and peacefully, or if we crush all our opponents, or if we end up with half our cities nuked, just as long as we win.

And yes, a good starting position combined with good play from the team has led us to make Monarch look a complete cakewalk

-Sirp.

 

[Shevek]

Sirp,
Thanks for the explanations. I feel enlightened.
I have to ponder the

"Democracy in Civilization III holds little value"

for a little bit. That is just a new concept for me since I always try to get to democracy. But war weariness is definetely a point that makes it difficult and in some cases right undesireable.

Shevek

 

[bewareofgnomes]

well, for me nothing but democracy will do. of course, i am a peaceful space ship launcer who usually has nothing but a few defensive units in my cities. that is why im excited about this warmongering talk. it is something i need to learn how to do effectively.

 

[Sirp]

bewareofgnomes: even if you're a peaceful player, democracy usually isn't worth it because of the extra techs you have to research, the anarchy time, and because it makes you vulnerable: if anyone decides to attack you, you are going to have war weariness problems.

-Sirp.

 

[bewareofgnomes]

well, who am i to argue with u (im not being sarcastic) but, the gpt is just too much of an incentive. plus, i only really play on monarch, so i cant really talk on emporer or deity.

 

[Sirp]

ok, we haven't heard from CivGeneral in 24 hours since Renata's turn, so he's skipped. Matt_g, you're up now.

-Sirp.

 

[Matt_G]

Originally posted by Sirp
ok, we haven't heard from CivGeneral in 24 hours since Renata's turn, so he's skipped. Matt_g, you're up now.

-Sirp.

Cool! I was just coming here to look up your e-mail and send you my shadow, but since it's now officially my turn, I will post the report etc. Give a few minutes and it'll be here.

 

[Matt_G]

Preturn: MM Marathon, Mycenae and Pharso to get Pharso growing again. Research switched to Invention in 4 at +284 gpt.
Investigate Teno for 102 gold. Monty is only getting 10 spt and growing very slowly at +1 fpt. Won’t get to size 10 for 24 turns. Sun Tzu’s due in 37. The moron is running 2 entertainers, and even if he could put them to work has no improved tiles to put them on. He has 4 pikes as garrison, 3 regulars and 1 vet. There is a barracks in that city. He also has iron, but doesn’t have horses. Quite sad actually. That city should rock, but it’s not happening.
Hmmm who else is building Sun’s and where. Babs in a size 4 city. Not worth investigating.
Ditto with the Russians, only it’s size 3.
Romans in Veii which is size 7. I investigate because he finished the GW here in 330 AD. I don’t know when he started building Sun’s, but he could have been building for over 30 turns. Probably more like twenty something.
Well that was a waste of 96 gold. Sun’s due in 63. He’s only getting 7spt and the city is in a minus food situation with 2 entertainers right now. Has 3 spears as garrison and no barracks.
Edo is size 8 but I won’t investigate it seeing how Toku didn’t even have currency at the beginning of Renata’s turn.
Change Athens to Sun Tzu’s, and switch Thermo to Sistine’s. Due in 12 and 13 respectively.
Move our 2 knights from Tlacopan east, at Sirp’s suggestion. I dial up Julius and tell him to get out and he does this

Knight from Sparta kills horseman losing 1 hp.
Knight from Tlaxcala takes out the second horse without suffering any damage.
Our MDI out of Ephesus takes out the warrior losing a hp.
Shuffle some troops around and cover our exposed worker.

IT: No counterattack. Romans move some more troops in.

Turn 1-710 AD: Sparta, knight>knight. Corinth, hoplite>hoplite. Need to get some workers over here. Way to much food (+11 fpt) and not enough shields. Needs a courthouse as well. Argos, hoplite>knight. Herakleia, knight>knight.
Our 2 knights out of Tlaco are able to join the fray and attack this turn. They kill a horse each with 1 of ours losing 2 hp and the other losing none. Vet knight attacks spear/archer on plains and not a cross a river and kills the spear losing 3 hp, whew! Knight just finished in Sparta takes out the archer that spear was guarding without taking any damage.

IT: Caesar moving troops into position to be killed.

Turn 2-720 AD: Drop science 10%, Invention still in 2 at +362gpt. OK, Caesar moved up a stack of 4 troops onto this side of the river. 1 spear, 1 horse and 2 archers, all regulars. Let’s see how we do.
Vet knight kills spear 2>3
Vet knight kills horse 1>3
Vet knight kills archer 2>3
Vet MDI kills last archer 0>3
Another Vet MDI takes out a regular warrior 3>3. Shouldn’t have done this. It was across a river and he was on a hill to boot. Got away with it though. Man I wish I had about 20 knights!

IT: Monty wants to talk. Tells us how nice he is to offer his WM for Chivalry. Yeah, right.
I lose my first unit. Lost a vet MDI to a elite archer 4>4. I will get that redlined sob.

Turn 3-730 AD: Corinth, hoplite>Knight. Pharsa, Bank>Knight. Leader fish against that redlined archer with a elite MDI but no luck with a leader. The sob is dead though and my MDI is still at full health. Moving troops and letting some of them heal. There is a horse south of Ephesus that will attack next turn but I have 2 hoplites there so I am not worried about. I didn’t attack him because everything that could reach him is hurt and he is on a mountain.

IT: Japan and Russia make peace. Caesar moves a spear and 2 warriors in to be butchered.

Turn 4-740 AD: OK, I miscalculated. That horse attacked a wounded Knight but our Knight won without taking anymore damage. Then another one attacked him and he killed that one to and promoted to elite while losing 1 hp. Invention comes in and research is set to Gunpowder. Due in 4 at +298gpt.
Sparta Knight>Knight. The Babs are building Sistine. Man alive I hate overlap! Have to check 3 cities to see which one is using a tile in the Pharso, Mycenae, Herak area. Butcher previously mentioned spear and 2 warriors getting 1 knight promoted to elite. I have a stack consisting of 2 hoplites, 1 sword, 1 MDI, and 2 knights ready to attack Antium next turn. Other knights are only a turn behind them but they are also hurt. Wish we had a barracks in Ephesus. The bank will be done there next turn, but I hope to rush one in Antium.

To be continued......

 

[Matt_G]

IT: Caesar doesn’t learn……..

Turn 5 750 AD: Delphi, Uni>Magellan’s. The extra movement when we go overseas to spread greek culture will be very handy.
Argos, Knight>Knight. Herak, Knight>Knight.Ephesus, bank>Knight after the next turn of events.
Halicarnassus, Library>worker. This is vetoable. I almost set it to a courthouse, but I think it’s beyond redemption losing 18 of 19 gold to corruption.
Attack on Antium:
Vet knight vs. reg. spear; win 1>3
Vet knight vs. reg. spear win 0>3
Elite MDI vs. reg. spear, win 2>3 and Antium falls taking 2 gold from Caesars vaults. More importantly he just lost 1 of his 2 luxes. There are 4 resistors and it is set to a starvation diet. Set to a barracks. We also got 1 slave.
Attack a straggling horse with a 4hp elite and

get Pyrrhus! [dance] He is on his way to Athens to rush Sun Tzu. Athens can then start another wonder. (Smith’s?) Yeah that sounds good.
Clean up another horse and spear that were out in the open. Moving on Lugdunum. Switch Athens to it’s long awaited bank wasting a bunch of shields but what the hey, it will build Sun’s next turn anyways. Rushed a couple of Knights. Changed Antium to a Library. Will rush after the resistance is quelled.

IT: Monty moves some troops up to the border by Argos. I think he’s feeling frisky.

Turn 6-760 AD: Athens Bank>Sun’s. Sparta Knight>Knight. Resistance quelled in Antium.
Corinth, Knight>Knight. Rhodes Aqueduct>market. Pergamon, Library>harbor. Iroquois start Sun Tzu. I don’t think they will make it.
Pyrrhus rushes Sun Tzu in Athens. I am letting some troops heal and am getting consolidated. I did pillage rome’s horses this turn though, south of Antium. Also killed a archer next to Antium.

IT: nada

Turn 7-770 AD: Athens, Sun’s>worker.
Pharso, Knight>Knight. Are you seeing a trend here?
Monty is lucky there is time left on the treaty. Herak, Knight>Knight. Rome must have got Invention. Get the popup saying they are building Leo’s.
Aztec’s are building it as well. Iro’s start Sistine. Rush Library in Antium. Since it’s right next to rome, I want some culture in it. Gunpowder next turn at +416gpt. Moving troops.

IT: nada

Turn 8-780 AD: Archer attacks stack of Knights out side of Lugdunum.
Gunpowder comes in. Set research to Chemistry, due in 4 at +241 gpt.
We have Saltpeter. 2 of them and one is already hooked north of Corinth. We will have three after taking Pisae. Caesar will have none. Monty has 1 SW of Texcoco.
Athens, worker>Smith’s. Due in 18.
Antium library>courthouse. It still has it’s aqueduct.
Argos, Knight>musket.
Damn Tzint riots. Forgot it wasn’t on the trade network and rioted at size 3. Road is done this turn so no action needed. Cleanup a horse next to Antuim. Units are healed up and in position to attack Lugdunum and Pisae next turn. Upgrade a Hoplite in Antium to a musket. In fact I upgrade a hopi in each border town to a musket.

IT: Damn, left our lone sword exposed and he got pasted.
Our GA ends this turn as well. Lost 120 gpt. Still making 63 with Chemistry in 3.

Turn 9-790 AD: Marathon, market>temple. Vetoable.
Move workers.
The attack on Lugdunum:
Vet Knight vs. reg. spear, win 1>3
Vet Knight vs. reg. spear, win 1>3
Vet Knight vs. reg. 2hp archer, win 0>2 and Lugdunum is ours! It has 3 resistors, and we got 4 slaves.
The attack on Pisae, which is on a hill BTW:
Vet Knight vs. reg. spear, lose 4>1 and he promotes.
Vet MDI vs. reg. spear, wins 2>3
Vet Knight vs.3 hp vet spear, win 0>3 and Pisae falls. Got 2 gold and 1 slave. 2 resistors.
Attacked a horse by Antium and won losing 2 hp on a knight. Another knight tried to cleanup a longbow in forest and died 4 hp to zero. I was wondering when I would get some bad RNG luck.

IT: nada

Turn 10-800 AD: Sparta Knight>Knight. Vetoable. Resistance ends in Lugdunum and Pisae.
I moved a few workers and that’s it. I basically have not done anything this turn, because I didn’t want to tie the next person’s hands. So you have basically a unplayed turn here.
State of the Nation:
Treasury is at 2727, Chemistry due in 2 at +69gpt.
Sistine is due in 4, Smith’s due in 22.
Caesar will give Monarchy, (whoopee) his WM and 13gpt for peace. He will not give a city. I say screw him and let’s take Rome itself, at the least. Personally I think the diplo screen would look fine with his mug gone all together.

Edit: Lugnumdum is roiting because the resistance just ended and they went to work. I can't remember if I fixed it or not.
I am wondering if I should have made an army. I thought about it but I really wanted those instant barracks. I am looking forward to hearing your comments on this Sirp.

 

[Matt_G]

Edit #2: The more I think on it the more I realize I really screwed
up. I should have switched Athens to Bachs or Smiths and rushed Sun Tzu somewhere else. Wasn't thinking straight.
That's some bad there. Sorry team.
Here's a pic.

Here's the game.

 

[bewareofgnomes]

there is still a goddy hut

 

[Sirp]

I'm glad to see you pointed out your major piece of before I could Matt. I was squirming in my seat, thinking "no no no!" as I read that.

The first rule of Great Leaders is you don't use them in any city which already has a substantial amount of shields! It would have been far better to have used it in another city, such as Sparta.

Other than that your turn was great. You took more cities than I did in my shadow (I took Antium and Pisae). I will have more comments later when I look at the save.

Matt_g <-- Just played
Stormrider <-- UP NOW
Shaesha <-- On deck
Sirp
Renata
CivGeneral (dropped?)

-Sirp.