During the initial phase of the game, expansion and growth are far more important.
Sitting Bull - A Nice Builder
- Thread starter dankok8
- Start date
During the initial phase of the game, expansion and growth are far more important.
Meh...the AI never attacks early enough for Totem Pole Super-Archers to matter. That's the problem with Sitting Bull. (This may not be true with Aggressive AI turned on, but even then I'd rather be on the offensive than having my Archer-defended cities under attack.)
I disagree and plus, it's a fact that protective is generally a rather weak trait in late and early game. Industrious is only for wonder building and modern age features few wonders that you need to build; in fact, I think modern age should have more useful wonders if you ask me.
England certainly gets stronger as the game goes on at least from my experience. Unless I have cities surrounded by flood plains, I don't like cottaging like mad until my cities almost reach their growing potential (usually ~1000AD). After cities becomes larger, they can work more tiles (cottages) At that time, I replace many farms with cottages and they mature right at about modern age (these cottages make up 80% of my cottage total). If you build cottages right from the early game, then I agree with your conclusion that financial gets weaker later on. Even then, 15% is nothing to sneeze at and outperforms a late-game industrious trait by far IMO.
Guardian_PL
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,231
Yeah, well, we're not talking about nations here and their UB but about traits. And I think what roxlimn tried to say is that every trait is important, You have to simply understand how to leverage it.
Industrious late-game weak?
Obviously, it's weaker than at the beginning but in my last game being industrious allowed me to build Cristo Redentor 8 turns earlier, so I could go to war instantly switching the civics without anarchy and continue onslaught. West Point, Pentagon, Ironworks, all artistics wonders (Hollywood, Broadway etc), United Nation, Space Elevator, Apollo Program (last wonders actually let You win the game)... Industrious lets You have them half price. It's not a big deal when You have tech lead, but when You don't...
Same goes for Protective. I used to think that Protective sucks, but when You know how to use it it's pretty useful in early and late era alike. City Garrison promotion is so strong that 2-3 Longbows properly upgraded can withstand whole army, so while Your army is somewhere else You don't need to be afraid of losing cities. Power of Protective Draft has yet to be discovered by many. many players. Also it gets better when playing multi and on higher levels.
But of course, one can always take Rome or Elisabeth or Incas or Persians and win much more easily. But after a while it get's boring to win with the strongest leaders only, and one starts to look for other ways to score a win. And besides, it's so nice to kick butts without Financial or overpowered UU...
Industrious late-game weak?
Obviously, it's weaker than at the beginning but in my last game being industrious allowed me to build Cristo Redentor 8 turns earlier, so I could go to war instantly switching the civics without anarchy and continue onslaught. West Point, Pentagon, Ironworks, all artistics wonders (Hollywood, Broadway etc), United Nation, Space Elevator, Apollo Program (last wonders actually let You win the game)... Industrious lets You have them half price. It's not a big deal when You have tech lead, but when You don't... Same goes for Protective. I used to think that Protective sucks, but when You know how to use it it's pretty useful in early and late era alike. City Garrison promotion is so strong that 2-3 Longbows properly upgraded can withstand whole army, so while Your army is somewhere else You don't need to be afraid of losing cities. Power of Protective Draft has yet to be discovered by many. many players. Also it gets better when playing multi and on higher levels.
But of course, one can always take Rome or Elisabeth or Incas or Persians and win much more easily. But after a while it get's boring to win with the strongest leaders only, and one starts to look for other ways to score a win. And besides, it's so nice to kick butts without Financial or overpowered UU...
InvisibleStalke
Emperor
Stonehenge is unlikely - but its not essential at all.
Pyramids - sure you can do this. With stone. With stone its only 250 hammers - all you need to do is chop it before you finish Oracle. After Masonry you have to research three techs before Oracle can be build - 250 hammers in that time is doable.
There is a bit of luck involved - lots of industrious civs would make this a gamble. And a larger map reduces your odds too.
InvisibleStalke
Emperor
Neither of these are weak traits in the endgame.
Industrious leaders get to go to town with Radio - there are three good wonders to be built with one tech - only an industrious leader is likely to get all of them. And broadway on the previous tech. And still stand a chance to get the Pentagon.
Plus you have the ongoing benefits of all the wonders you built earlier. And their GPPs. And the benefits of the Great People the extra GPPs bought you.
Protective is pretty strong then too. Assuming you are creating 10xp units by then - which is pretty reasonable in most games, that means you can be creating:
Marines with CG3,Drill2. These guys are incredible city defenders. Drop just one of them into a captured city. And playing protective I like to capture a city, put a handful of units like this in it and then just watch the AI lose a ton of units taking it back. Then rinse and repeat until they have nothing more to throw at you.
Paratroopers or Mech infantry with Drill4 - these guys can just storm across an AI barly stopping.
Protective for me hits its own when you can draft. Your drafted riflemen are better on attack (since they can take pinch with the one promotion that barracks + theology gives you) and much better on defense than the drafted riflemen of any other civ.
Now I won't argue that Protective is better than Financial or Organized or even Aggressive - but its still pretty good late game.
I agree 100%. Those marines are awesome but even a non-protective marine will likely have 4 promotions (instead of 5 in that case) so it does not make a big difference. The difference is much more noticeable in the early game (a difference between CGI and CG2 longbows is greater than that between the 2 marines above).
It's funny how this thread completely wondered off topic.. We were supposed to be discussing Sitting Bull and instead it's all about Qin.
I guess they both have the protective trait.Guardian_PL
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,231
I don't think we're far off topic here, after all to many Protective is no-thanks-I'll-take-different-leader.
Those Marines above have two free promotions, and of course I agree that in the endgame one-two cities of non-protective leader could produce units on 4th level straight, but not the whole country. Whereas if unit starts with CGI, DrillI You need only 10xp to make them kick butts, so You can mass-produce them on a global rate.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that there are other traits much more suitable for human player (I personally just got out of my Financial addicition, and now I'm fully devoted to Charismatic
), but Protective definitely has its merits.
Also, I'm starting to have a feeling that by playing Protective makes whole game completely different, so I guess after a while it can be a nice change to run with archers, totem poles, and have Praetorians behind the borders to humiliate them with Dog Soldiers Instead of endless axe-rush, where-is-my-3commerce-coast-tile and going nearly same tech route every time... 
Hmmm... Gotta finish this DeGaulle game, and I'll give a Protective a try. First time
Those Marines above have two free promotions, and of course I agree that in the endgame one-two cities of non-protective leader could produce units on 4th level straight, but not the whole country. Whereas if unit starts with CGI, DrillI You need only 10xp to make them kick butts, so You can mass-produce them on a global rate.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that there are other traits much more suitable for human player (I personally just got out of my Financial addicition, and now I'm fully devoted to Charismatic
), but Protective definitely has its merits. Also, I'm starting to have a feeling that by playing Protective makes whole game completely different, so I guess after a while it can be a nice change to run with archers, totem poles, and have Praetorians behind the borders to humiliate them with Dog Soldiers
Instead of endless axe-rush, where-is-my-3commerce-coast-tile and going nearly same tech route every time... Hmmm... Gotta finish this DeGaulle game, and I'll give a Protective a try. First time
The only way to shake off the "Protective sucks" bandwagon is to play Tokugawa and war all game long. Aggressive Swords with Protective Archers stack defense RULES!
Who needs Catapults?
Seriously. With Tokugawa, it's like every Gunpowder unit you get is a Praetorian.
Who needs Catapults?
Seriously. With Tokugawa, it's like every Gunpowder unit you get is a Praetorian.
Yea protective is quite different .. its a defensive trait and thus isn't valued among human players much.
For everyone else. just want to get your attention to this thread where I'm playing with Saladin (Protective, Spiritual) and feel free to offer some suggestions since probably most of you have more experience than me with protective. It may let me leverage the trait to my advantage in a much better way.
HTML:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=247433Aggressive is substantially better. City Garrison is next to useless, and Drill is inferior to Combat I as Combat I opens up tailor-made promotions out of the Barracks.
Archers are a last-resort unit, and Aggressive has a better Gunpowder bonus.
Protective sucks, and Sitting Bull's other traits are horrible. He might as well just say "Philosophical" and leave it at that. It's his only worthwhile bonus.
PutCashIn
Prince
I play quite a bit of LAN civ4 with gf/friends who usually havent even heard about civ3, let alone 1 & 2, so, although I feel the same applies to me, I shall label them 'new.'
I must say this suprised me...most of these people love tokugawa's traits (and samurai) and are very successful with him...I ask why and they say 'he can attck AND defend'
And strangly enough, once they are confident about warmongering (or at least, not too worried about the horns of war sounding from a neighbouring faction) their economic strategy improves....
I must say this suprised me...most of these people love tokugawa's traits (and samurai) and are very successful with him...I ask why and they say 'he can attck AND defend'
And strangly enough, once they are confident about warmongering (or at least, not too worried about the horns of war sounding from a neighbouring faction) their economic strategy improves....
I drew Sitting Bull randomly recently, and I will say the Dog Soldier came in handy when I didn't have copper. I'm always a fan of units that don't require resources. They let you found cities in prime spots without needing metal for a while (dependent upon surrounding land.)
But then, that has nothing to do with being a builder civ, as the title suggests.
But then, that has nothing to do with being a builder civ, as the title suggests.
yeah, but the earlier boost is the most important because you get everywhere earlier. You have to look at how things effect the tech race to see their true power, not a snapshot of what they are at one point.
For example, you'll get the extra +1 to all your towns and villages from printing press earlier, you'll get +10% research from Free Religion earlier, etc. All these earlier tech gains translate into big bonuses.
In the modern age the power of financial is mostly unseen, its power is how it got you to that point.
Levgre:
Quite agree. Many people don't realize that Financial is mostly an early-game trait. By the late game, the effect is minimal. Imperialistic and Creative and much the same. Imperialistic truly comes into its own in a map with a nice spread of Happiness, Health, and Commerce specials. Then you can just spam the Settlers and let the resource spread power you into victory.
dankok8:
To make Protective count, you have to stop thinking of it as a defensive trait. It boosts your defensive units and position, but that doesn't make it a defensive trait.
Use the Castles. They give you +1 Trade Route in a city. Normally, they're not good enough to spam, but if you're Protective, they're usually cheap enough for that purpose.
Use your Archers and Longbowmen to attract fire from enemy stacks. Post them on hills (especially on hills with resources on them) and rob the enemy of his key resources. Ideally, you want them to attack a Walled city full of Drill 3 Archers and Longbowmen. When you declare war, wait for their attack stack to wade into your territory. That way, YOUR attack stack will be pretty much unopposed while their attack stack wastes its time trying to take down what's basically an impregnable city.
Castled City on Hill with 8 Drill 3 Longbowmen = huge waste of attack time.
Influx5:
In the late game? I'd rate them about the same. City Garrison is NOT useless. It helps to defend a beachhead from massive counterattack in a naval landing. Also allows you to hold onto your frontline cities with a modicum of units.
Drill opens up the same vital promotions that Combat 1 does, and it also leads into Drill 2, 3, and 4 which are important promotions for an attack stack to have in the ages of Cannon and Artillery.
Protective DOESN'T suck in the late game. In the early game, it's a little meh, but don't knock the Drill Archers. They're butch for city defense.
The ability to defend cities with major force is something that apparently takes a little imagination to use well, but it's quite good.
Quite agree. Many people don't realize that Financial is mostly an early-game trait. By the late game, the effect is minimal. Imperialistic and Creative and much the same. Imperialistic truly comes into its own in a map with a nice spread of Happiness, Health, and Commerce specials. Then you can just spam the Settlers and let the resource spread power you into victory.
dankok8:
To make Protective count, you have to stop thinking of it as a defensive trait. It boosts your defensive units and position, but that doesn't make it a defensive trait.
Use the Castles. They give you +1 Trade Route in a city. Normally, they're not good enough to spam, but if you're Protective, they're usually cheap enough for that purpose.
Use your Archers and Longbowmen to attract fire from enemy stacks. Post them on hills (especially on hills with resources on them) and rob the enemy of his key resources. Ideally, you want them to attack a Walled city full of Drill 3 Archers and Longbowmen. When you declare war, wait for their attack stack to wade into your territory. That way, YOUR attack stack will be pretty much unopposed while their attack stack wastes its time trying to take down what's basically an impregnable city.
Castled City on Hill with 8 Drill 3 Longbowmen = huge waste of attack time.
Influx5:
In the late game? I'd rate them about the same. City Garrison is NOT useless. It helps to defend a beachhead from massive counterattack in a naval landing. Also allows you to hold onto your frontline cities with a modicum of units.
Drill opens up the same vital promotions that Combat 1 does, and it also leads into Drill 2, 3, and 4 which are important promotions for an attack stack to have in the ages of Cannon and Artillery.
Protective DOESN'T suck in the late game. In the early game, it's a little meh, but don't knock the Drill Archers. They're butch for city defense.
The ability to defend cities with major force is something that apparently takes a little imagination to use well, but it's quite good.
I love playing Tokogawa when I wanna be a late game warmonger. I usually do a samuri war to expand to 8-10 while I tech to gunpowder. I usually play AggressiveAI when I warmonger. It's only fair. That means lots of big bayyles and usually 3-4 GG's. I split them between two cities and make 1-2mash scouts.So i am producing 5xp units while running buearacracy and OR while my economy recovers and i build courthouses. If the AI has settled a GG in a city, then all the better for me. However, I don't go up either the CG or Drill path. I give the muskets Combat 2&3. That leads to a base strength of 11.7with drill1 and CG1 right out of the box. As defenders they are tough buggers to kill. And they have no counter. PLUS the 11.7 strength is versus everything. So you basically bypass the rock/paper/scissors approach to CIV combat. At 10xp they are combat4 with a strength of 12.6. Later in the game with more instructors. Let's say we have 3 in one citiy, and 1 in another with west point. If I get the pentagon and am running vassalage and theocracy. That means i have combat4 infantry with drill1 and CG1 right out of the box. That is a 28 strength, can anyone say slow moving tank? And you don't even want to discuss the machine guns for defense. regular cities are producing CG3 drill1 combat 1 machine guns. The only thing they have to worry about are CR3 tanks. And MG's are immune to collateral damage.
The hardest part about toko is his starting techs, you have to research pretty much all the worker techs from scratch which starts you off slowly.
When it is mop up time, you have combat4 mechinfantry with cg1 and drill1. They are just sick. Especially since they have march as well.
I have recently played a monarch game with Sitting bull. Biggest problem with him I think is his UU, which has one less strength point less then regular axeman. Makes early wars difficult since at strength 4 they don't do too well against archers guarding the cities. It makes Sitting bull very reliant on iron working for swordsmen. Just pray you have iron somewhere nearby, bacause early wars are a must.
Other then that he is quite good. His UB with baracks gives +5 xp to new archer units. So you have a crosbowmen comming out with drill I and CGI and straight off you have all the specialized promotions available, like Shock or cover or guerilla I/II and so on. I think alot of people dont realize it but Combat I is not a prerequisite for alot of specilized promotions. It is quite scarry to see gunpowder units coming out fresh from the city with pinch promotion. Protective trait basically guarantees that your gunpowder units will be 25% supperior to the other guys units, with no special effort required.
And toku is a monster, with his trait combo.
Other then that he is quite good. His UB with baracks gives +5 xp to new archer units. So you have a crosbowmen comming out with drill I and CGI and straight off you have all the specialized promotions available, like Shock or cover or guerilla I/II and so on. I think alot of people dont realize it but Combat I is not a prerequisite for alot of specilized promotions. It is quite scarry to see gunpowder units coming out fresh from the city with pinch promotion. Protective trait basically guarantees that your gunpowder units will be 25% supperior to the other guys units, with no special effort required.
And toku is a monster, with his trait combo.
Similar threads
