Skullduggery Thread for Demohacking

Very good analysis, Yossa.

I think RB's army on the Poly front is minimal, but they sent it all towards CP.

Those numbers will of course change once RB get to rifles. With Bistrita we are expecting RB to have like 50 rifles in 5 turns. Thats quite a lot, but the good thing is they will have hard time getting those together. And we must have pinch grenadiers by then.
 
When will they get Rifling? Their power is definitely contained while the best unit they can draft is muskets and for whipping they can only get cats and knights.

Also, I just want to make clear that my power analysis was based very much on assumptions and estimates. For example, I didn't count any stables, but I'm sure they built tons for their war against the Germans that relied heavily on War Elephants. Also, as 2metra mentioned, it is very inaccurate that I just assumed 200k worth of units were in the fog on the Poly border, so they probably have a lot more units elsewhere that I didn't account for. Surely they don't have axes or longbows protecting all their core cities like I estimated, a lot of those are probably sitting empty. A bunch of power is probably tied up in units that were recently produced and are now making their ways to the various fronts.

So anyways, take that analysis with a grain of salt. It was more for the purpose of giving us a general idea of how many power points are unaccounted for, and to start giving us an idea of how many units could be heading our way.
 
So, we have 2 tasks for research and we need volunteer/s to make the research and/or tests and act as adviser on the matter.

First is how AP acts. What periods between elections, what happens if the Pope decline to choose resolution, when Religion win vote can be called, how often, what can change the outcome of the vote, what exactly are the consequences of vetoing AP resolution, how long they are present, what impact them, etc, etc.

Second is how Espionage bonuses are calculated. All the bonuses, how they are influenced, what we must do to get maximum for our efforts, etc, etc.
 
Another one - Yossa, this one is for you - we need to know if CP or CivFR are building the Sistine. How we forgot we can tell what is built in other civs cities :( Ot4e asked me what we build in our capitol and this remind me about this option.
 
AP votes come in the form "resident election, proposal, proposal, proposal, proposal", which then repeats. There's a ten-turn delay between votes whether the resident chose to propose anything or not, unless no proposal was available in which case there is only a one-turn delay.

The owner is always a candidate for resident, regardless of religion. If a non-owner resident abandons the correct state religion, no proposals occur until the next resident election.

Diplomatic (Religious) Victory
Prerequisite: ALL Civs in the game must be Members (i.e. have at least one vote in the AP) and a single Civ cannot be supplying 75% or more of the vote.
One of the candidates will be the Owner (even if that Civ is not running the AP Religion), the other candidate will be the Full Member (has the correct religion) with the most votes who is not the Owner. A Civ that is a Vassal is eligible for Victory.
To pass, this proposal requires 75% of the vote and it cannot be Defied.

It is a proposal like any other, and thus can come up every ten turns.


Any Member can Defy most proposals (except for Diplomatic Victory and Resident Election). If the proposal would have passed had there been no Defiance then the Defier suffers three ramifications:

1. He loses his Full Member status if he is currently a Full Member.
2. He loses the +2 bonus from AP Religion Buildings he currently has and builds while in Defiance.
3. His current cities with the AP Religion acquire Villain (5 unhappiness) status. New cities captured, founded or converted to the AP Religion after the Defiance vote has occurred do not acquire Villain status.

In order to undo ramifications #1 and #2, the Civ must vote yes on a proposal (Resident Election excluded) and that proposal must pass. #3 lasts for 20 turns regardless of any other events.


This guide tells us about pretty much anything AP-related. However, it is only current up to 3.17. We'd have to check changelogs to see if anything got changed between there and 3.19.
 
^^ seems to me pretty exhaustive...

so basically we can influence only number of votes ot4e gets when voting (and of course if we would switch civfr out of AP religion the same applies...)

if we spread AP religion we could probably get enough votes to block any resolution?
 
Based on the premise that we, CP, CivFr, and Poly are all roughly the same size (if only because I can't be bothered to check the true sizes), even if we and Poly spread Buddhism to all our cities we won't get above 1/3 vote share together without either us changing religions or using a RSM. In short, we could block a Religious victory but would be powerless to stop anything else.

I know I've seen "Election cancelled: Stop the fighting among our brothers in the faith" in-game before, but I haven't figured out why that happens yet. I suspect it's if two Full Members are at war.
 
Another one - Yossa, this one is for you - we need to know if CP or CivFR are building the Sistine. How we forgot we can tell what is built in other civs cities :( Ot4e asked me what we build in our capitol and this remind me about this option.

Hey, sorry I've been so absent lately. Combination of rl being pretty busy right now and my attention being diverted by another game I'm playing. I should have some time today to look into your requests. However, I must warn you, that for some reason my numbers always came out wrong when it came to calculating hammer counts in foreign cities, so SilentConfusion and later Maga were doing all the math on this. I'll try again, but it'll have to wait until the game is back online so I can log in and take a look at the espionage numbers.
 
This guide tells us about pretty much anything AP-related.

Awesome summary talonschild, thanks so much for posting that.

Back when we were at war with CivFr and a resolution was proposed to stop the fighting, I checked out the voting percentages. At that time, CivFr had about 50% of the vote, CP had about 30%, and the remainder was spread around the other teams. Those are very rough estimates, but I definitely remember that between CivFr and CP, they could basically decide anything they wanted. Things might have changed since then, but my guess would be that CP's share of the votes has gone up, and the share spread amongst the non-Buddhist teams has dropped. It's going to take a really strong effort to take away the ability of those two teams to elect a winner. :(
 
Second is how Espionage bonuses are calculated. All the bonuses, how they are influenced, what we must do to get maximum for our efforts, etc, etc.

There's some conflicting info out there on espionage, but here are some of the best resources I found:

Complete Espionage Mission Cost Guide by Detektyw

Mission Costs by Krikkitone

Analysis of Espionage Economies by VirusMonster

Spy Detection by Bhruic

So, going over all the bonus modifiers:

  • Obviously the stationary spy bonus gives 10% bonus each turn, max is 50% at 5 turns
  • Having a trade route to the city gives a 20% bonus
  • If the city has our state religion, we have the Holy City, and the target civ is in a different religion, we get a 40% bonus
  • All of the above but the target civ is also in our religion, then we get a 25% bonus
  • If the city has our religion, target civ does not, but we don't have the Holy City, then we get a 15% bonus
  • Having culture in the city gives a bonus, but I don't quite understand how it works. VirusMonster explains it like this: "Multiply by (1 - (.5 * your culture) / (your culture + their culture)), then round down."
  • Having generated more espionage over time gives a bonus, as follows: "Multiply by (2x + y)/(x + 2y), where x is your espionage points and y is their espionage points"
  • Distance from our capital is a negative modifier. The further the city is from our capital, the more expensive the mission. I could not find how this is calculated, but a common example I saw is that a city that is very close to the capital would only have a 20% increase to the cost.
  • If the enemy has a security bureau or a spy in the city, that increases the cost of the mission by 50%
  • And of course, if the target runs counter-espionage against us, that has a negative modifier. Surprisingly, I could not locate the exact amount, but I believe I remember seeing that is a 100% penalty.

These modifiers are multiplied. Here is a really good (but long) post by Coanda that breaks it down:

Spoiler :
Er... apologies for necromancy on this thread, but it is linked to from the main game mechanics section of CivFanatics so it probably ought to be corrected... and I'm pretty sure that it's incorrectly describing the modifier calculation. I also apologize in advance if this is a mistake on my part, either because I'm being stupid or because the actual code is different from what he posted in spoiler tags - I don't have the SDK, so I'm going by what's in detektyw's post.

Following the code, assuming all the default defines, here's how you determine espionage cost multiplier...

Start with 100.

Multiply by 0.8 if you have a trade route, then round down to the nearest integer.

If the city has your state religion, your religion is different from the target civs, and you have the holy city, multiply by 0.6, then round down.
Alternatively, if the city has your state religion, the target civ also does, and you have the holy city, multiply by 0.75, then round down.
Alternatively, if the city has your state religion, the target civ does not, and you do not have the holy city, multiply by 0.85, then round down.

Ignoring some miniscule rounding differences on culture ratios...
Multiply by (1 - (.5 * your culture) / (your culture + their culture)), then round down.

Multiply (100 + the city's espionage defense)/100, then round down. I'm not sure, but I assume that's the 50% defense for security bureau.

Multiply by the distance modifier, then round down (if the plot doesn't have a target, use the enemy capital as target).

Multiply by max(1.0 - 0.1*turns fortified, .5). If your spy has 5 full turns fortified, this is 0.5.

Multiply by (2x + y)/(x + 2y), where x is your espionage points and y is their espionage points. This is total espionage points generated for all time. It includes espionage points aimed at different targets, and espionage points already spent on missions. It also includes espionage from great spy missions. Really, I just tested all that because it seemed odd to me. Round down.

So let's take an example to demonstrate how different this is from the method given by Detektyw (whose work I really do admire, even if I think it is not quite correct in this case). Let's aim for a near-best case situation. Say the target civ isn't your religion, but the target city has your religion, and you have the holy city. Suppose it's under heavy culture-press - 50% your culture, 50% theirs. It doesn't have a Security Bureau. It's close to your capital - maybe 20% distance modifier. Your spy has been fortified for 5 or more turns. You've spent three times as much on espionage this game as they have.

Then, using the guide from page 1 of this thread... start with 100. Subtract 20 for trade route (80). Subtract 25 for holy city (55). Multiply by 0.75 for culture (41.25). Add 20 for distance (61.25). Subtract 50 for stationary spy (11.25). Add 71.4 for espionage ratios (82.7). So you pay 82.7% of base cost.

Using the procedure I just outlined... start with 100. Multiply by 0.8 for trade route (80). Multiply by 0.6 for religious modifiers (48). Multiply by 0.75 for culture (36). No security bureau. Multiply by 1.2 for distance (43.2) then round down (43). Multiply by 0.5 for stationary bonus (21.5) then round down (21). Multiply by 0.715 for espionage spending (15.015) then round down (15). So you pay 15% of the base cost. A bit of a difference.

So using this procedure (I believe the correct one, although if someone else who knows C++ wants to check feel free), what are the big points about espionage?
-The holy city bonus is great.
-It's nice to have the target city share your religion, but that only matters if the target civ does not share your religion.
-Aim to have a trade route to the city you aim at.
-The city you go for should have the best ratio of your culture : owner's culture possible. If someone conquers a city from you in a war, that's a great target for espionage! If you have 100 times the culture they do, you get a 49.5% discount on missions there; if you have just the same culture, that's 25%, and if you have no culture, no discount for you. This actually opens the possibility that if you have a large-ish empire but are badly behind in tech, you might want to let someone conquer one of your cities just so you can steal all their techs cheaply. You can always take it back 10 turns later with another war. Be sure to stockpile spies and espionage on them in advance though, as once they start accumulating culture there costs will rise.
-The city should not have a security bureau. This is a no-brainer.
-The city should be as close to your capital as possible. If you're running an espionage economy, you might even move your capital to your borders later in the game just to get that discount... although probably only if you're running state property as well.
-Your spy should have been fortified for at least 5 turns before you try the mission.
-The more espionage you've generated this game, the cheaper it is. The more espionage they've generated, the more expensive. So espionage-heavy games also will get cheaper espionage; if you don't build jails, don't build IA or SB, and never touch the espionage slider, you'll pay a lot more for each mission. This varies between 0.5x (if you've generated infinitely more espionage) and 2.0x (if they've generated infinitely more espionage).

This also opens up the possibility of a new use for a great artist (at least, I think it's new; maybe players have been using it and I just haven't heard?) - speeding "research" drastically early in the game. 1. Pile up espionage against an opponent who has techs you want. 2. Drop a bunch of spies in one of their border cities which was newly founded and is near your capital. 3. 5 turns later, use a great artist to swamp the culture in that city with your own culture. 4. Immediately use your spies to steal all their technologies. The city may flip shortly thereafter, so your time window may be limited.

This also indicates that spying for technology with good modifiers is a lot cheaper than indicated by the prior analysis. I'll go with detektyw's numbers for science city - 260%. But you really should have 250% for an espionage city, as you ought to be running nationhood. Sticking with his analysis for science, you've got a 442% boost to commerce spent on research (if it's for a tech everyone already has, etc. etc.). For espionage, however, it's quite possible (as I demonstrated) that you could get the modifiers down to 15%, or even less (5% costs is plausible if you micro carefully to set that exact situation up, and have been running a serious espionage economy for a long time). Assuming his steal-technology formula is accurate (lacking the SDK, I can't track down half the functions so I'll take it on faith), you pay 125% of the base cost of the tech as a base cost to steal it. So with a 15% modifier, you're looking at paying 18.8% of the tech's base cost in beakers as an espionage cost to steal it. That means one point of commerce becomes 2.5 points from modifiers in-city, becomes 13.3 beakers of base tech cost production from stealing techs... or over 3 times as rewarding as if you'd just put that commerce into research yourself. Of course, if you managed to get the multiplier down to 5%, you're getting 9 times as many beakers out of espionage as you would out of commerce.

Of course, there are the usual caveats with an espionage economy, but this does indicate that if you're smart about when and how you spend espionage points, the benefits can be greater. To me, the tricky part is that ideally you have a holy city for your state religion, the city you're stealing from has that religion, but the civ you're stealing from doesn't... which makes the diplomacy game very complicated because you're already getting negative diplo. points when your spies are caught. I'd be interested to hear how a more experienced player would tackle that sort of consideration for emperor+, or if they'd just swallow the much higher costs of adopting a common AI religion instead.

Edit: I was curious how effective culture-bombing a city before stealing techs would be, and it's a little disappointing. Apparently the target of steal technology isn't a city, even though a spy must be in a city to run it... so you get no bonus on that operation from culture-bombing, and presumably would get no bonus from running steal tech on a city which used to be yours and the enemy just took from you (except that it might be closer to your capital, so lower distance penalty).


And then the other important factor is how likely is our spy to get caught. Ultimately, this is somewhat random each turn that our spy is in enemy territory, but here are some things that can effect it:

  • Open Borders decreases the chance of being caught
  • Having more total espionage decreases the chance of being caught
  • If a spy is moving, it has a higher chance of being caught (lower chance for stationary spies)
  • If more than one of our spies is on the same enemy tile, it increases the chance of being caught
  • If they have a spy (or security bureau) on the tile our spy is on, it increases the chance of being caught
  • If they run a counter-espionage mission, it increases the chance that our spy is caught.

In Bhruic's link, he gives a worst-case scenario example (spy is moving, lands on a tile with an enemy spy, no Open Borders, they have 3x more espy than us), where the spy has a 12.2% chance of getting caught. On the other hand, a best-case scenario example (stationary spy, no enemy spy, Open Borders, we have 3x more espy than them), gives our spy only a 0.6% chance of being caught.

I know all of this was pretty basic, but hopefully it answered your questions, or guided you towards a link that might. Let me know if you have anything else you were looking for.
 
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