So How Bad Is It Overseas?

[Zardnaar]

So I've been watching videos about poverty overseas. Sometimes documentary type shows sometimes youtubers. I try and avoid the poverty porn type youtubers.

Eg here's one UK.

Appalachia

West Virginia is really pretty.

Such places don't really exist here in NZ. We have poorer socio economic areas but I haven't seen anything like that.

20+odd years ago I would travel to rural areas to work.

In some of the interviews what people are getting on welfare is about a third of our base rates even with currency conversion. Student gets around 125pounds+ Pensioner base rate is 200+ pounds (weekly).

The worst I've seen are the Maori areas in the north island and it's still better than some of these videos. That includes South Auckland stereotypical poor brown area.

Our small towns aren't collapsing generally the closest was late 80s and 90s. Quite a few are growing (my home town 12k to 14k looks a lot better than 30 years ago)

Recurring theme seems to be mono industry that's collapsed. Most of our towns are farming town with maybe a side helping of tourism. They haven't collapsed people gotta eat.

I live in our poorest city. South Island is poorer on paper but scenery is prettier and a bit more civic pride in the towns idk. More tourism perhaps? Our really rough areas are things like a single street might approach those levels. A poor suburb just looks a bit run down not boarded up and burnt out buildings.

We don't really have ghettos or estates they never really built high density housing and dispersed social housing through the suburbs. Most houses are free standing as apartments culturally never caught on to an great extent.

These countries are also richer with better developed economies. We never diversified to much from agriculture (low productivity). The government never cut social spending as such (failing to increase spending however).

Not perfect we have food banks as well, housing is a huge issue. I've never really felt threatened being drunk in lower socio economic areas at night for example.

 

[Remorseless1]

How many people live with n New Zealand? Four, five million? Easier to spread the wealth around? Want see real horrifying images of poverty? Try Indonesia, Russia, Brasil.

 

[Zardnaar]

How many people live with n New Zealand? Four, five million? Easier to spread the wealth around? Want see real horrifying images of poverty? Try Indonesia, Russia, Brasil.

5 million approx. BZ social media they're convinced everything's terrible here.
Alot of the problems here are the same elsewhere. Groceries and consumer goods more expensive comparatively (island tax and island time).

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

How many people live with n New Zealand? Four, five million? Easier to spread the wealth around? Want see real horrifying images of poverty? Try Indonesia, Russia, Brasil.

Don't think number of people should really matter, like I'm sure USA could have same equality as Scandinavian countries if it wished to have that equality, especially on a state level.

These countries are also richer with better developed economies. We never diversified to much from agriculture (low productivity). The government never cut social spending as such (failing to increase spending however).

Probably noticable, a rather normal middle class household in Sweden nowdays have household robots, electrical cars like teslas and live in houses filled with stuff, probably some sort of pool, 25-30+ paid vacation days probably at a job with little to no overtime and very good job security, no need to pay for college education, oversea vacations, get pension saving in addition to pay.

Productivity per hour for New Zealand seems really low compared to other countries.

https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm

Poor in Sweden is not particular bad, like here is supposedly one of the poorest streets in Sweden.

 

[Zardnaar]

Don't think number of people should really matter, like I'm sure USA could have same equality as Scandinavian countries if it wished to have that equality, especially on a state level.

Probably noticable, a rather normal middle class household in Sweden nowdays have household robots, electrical cars like teslas and live in houses filled with stuff, probably some sort of pool, 25-30+ paid vacation days probably at a job with little to no overtime and very good job security, no need to pay for college education, oversea vacations, get pension saving in addition to pay.

Productivity per hour for New Zealand seems really low compared to other countries.

https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm

Poor in Sweden is not particular bad, like here is supposedly one of the poorest streets in Sweden.

Yep NZ productivity is low due to agriculture, tourism and can't really diversify anyway.ll At least into minerals or manufacturing.

Everything costs more, cist of living at one point was close to California on Colorado wages.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Yep NZ productivity is low due to agriculture, tourism and can't really diversify anyway.ll At least into minerals or manufacturing.

Everything costs more, cist of living at one point was close to California on Colorado wages.

And yet New Zealand have higher life expectency than California and my co-workers given I work for an american tech company make it sound like places such as San Fransico and Seattle are quite bad.

 

[Zardnaar]

And yet New Zealand have higher life expectency than California.

Probably cultural. More physical exercise and most schools have sports fields and swimming pools.

When we go hiking you see toddlers giving it a shot or younger being carried.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Well I've seen a comparison between life expectency based on where you was in terms of income in Norway and USA, the difference at the absolute top and bottom was pretty much non-existent, like being bottom 1% or top 1% you had about the same life expectency. But between those extremes, Norway life expectency increased much faster before paning out like a turned J while USA life expectency grew at a slow steady rate, but only reached like parity with Norway at top 80% or something while being much worse at 25%.

So it seems like bottom 50% in USA is at a substanisal disadvantage and perhaps still at a disadvantage up to like bottom 80% and about equal after that point. Which seems to fit with what I've heard from people living in USA, that like half of the american population have it pretty bad.

 

[EgonSpengler]

And yet New Zealand have higher life expectency than California and my co-workers given I work for an american tech company make it sound like places such as San Fransico and Seattle are quite bad.

Probably cultural.

It's not.*

Journal of the American Medical Association and National Institutes of Health, 13 May 2016 - "The Association Between Income and Life Expectancy in the United States, 2001–2014"
Federation of American Scientists and Congressional Research Service, 6 July 2021 - "The Growing Gap in Life Expectancy by Income: Recent Evidence and Implications for the Social Security Retirement Age" (This one opens a pdf, not a web page, if that matters.)
Journal of the American Medical Association, 7 July 2022 - "Changes in the Relationship Between Income and Life Expectancy Before and During the COVID-19 Pandemic, California, 2015-2021"



* Well, there's an argument to be made that capitalism has become our culture. It was years ago now that I read an essay somewhere arguing (persuasively, I thought) that we'd moved beyond having a free-market economy and become a "free market society", to our great detriment. So in that sense, I suppose you could say it's cultural.

 

[E.man]

It's not.*

Journal of the American Medical Association and National Institutes of Health, 13 May 2016 - "The Association Between Income and Life Expectancy in the United States, 2001–2014"
Federation of American Scientists and Congressional Research Service, 6 July 2021 - "The Growing Gap in Life Expectancy by Income: Recent Evidence and Implications for the Social Security Retirement Age" (This one opens a pdf, not a web page, if that matters.)
Journal of the American Medical Association, 7 July 2022 - "Changes in the Relationship Between Income and Life Expectancy Before and During the COVID-19 Pandemic, California, 2015-2021"



* Well, there's an argument to be made that capitalism has become our culture. It was years ago now that I read an essay somewhere arguing (persuasively, I thought) that we'd moved beyond having a free-market economy and become a "free market society", to our great detriment. So in that sense, I suppose you could say it's cultural.

Oh yes, from here it looks very much like profiteering is the only measure of worth of anything.

 

[Birdjaguar]

And yet New Zealand have higher life expectency than California and my co-workers given I work for an american tech company make it sound like places such as San Fransico and Seattle are quite bad.

SF and Seattle are bad how? High rents? Poor people? Too much cloudy weather? Tech workers complaining they haven't got rich yet? Traffic problems?

Well I've seen a comparison between life expectency based on where you was in terms of income in Norway and USA, the difference at the absolute top and bottom was pretty much non-existent, like being bottom 1% or top 1% you had about the same life expectency. But between those extremes, Norway life expectency increased much faster before paning out like a turned J while USA life expectency grew at a slow steady rate, but only reached like parity with Norway at top 80% or something while being much worse at 25%.

So it seems like bottom 50% in USA is at a substanisal disadvantage and perhaps still at a disadvantage up to like bottom 80% and about equal after that point. Which seems to fit with what I've heard from people living in USA, that like half of the american population have it pretty bad.

Other than your usual "the US is a terrible place" view, I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

Life expectancy is a moving target tied to the year you were born. 2019 values are for those born in that year and not for those born earlier or later. If you were born in 1984 in Norway your LE is 76. It would be longer if you are richer and shorter if you are poorer. Women live longer than men too.

If you were born in 2019 in CA, your life expectancy is 81.2
If you were born in 2019 in Norway, your life expectancy is 82.3
If you were born in 2019 in NZ, your life expectancy is 82.2

Those numbers change when you change the birth year selected. In addition, LE changes with geography. the US is quite a large country, unlike Norway and NZ, so where you live can make a significant difference.

Income has a direct effect on LE. the richer you are (at every level) will increase one's LE. It is certainly true in the US and likely true everywhere else too. The differences become more obvious when you have 330 million people rather than 5 million.

From the Harvard link:

People say, ‘Americans are living longer, so we ought to delay the age of retirement,’ but … it’s a little bit unfair to say to low-income people that they’re going to get Social Security and Medicare for fewer years because investment bankers are living longer.”

For life expectancy, money matters — Harvard Gazette

A new study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows that income is closely correlated with life expectancy, with the richest Americans living as much as 15 years longer than the poorest — and even the poor living longer in wealthy areas.

news.harvard.edu

LE charts by birth years:

New Zealand Life Expectancy 1950-2024

Chart and table of New Zealand life expectancy from 1950 to 2024. United Nations projections are also included through the year 2100.

www.macrotrends.net

Norway Life Expectancy 1950-2024

Chart and table of Norway life expectancy from 1950 to 2024. United Nations projections are also included through the year 2100.

www.macrotrends.net

How the US government calculates LE.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44846

 

[Zardnaar]

SF and Seattle are bad how? High rents? Poor people? Too much cloudy weather? Tech workers complaining they haven't got rich yet? Traffic problems?

Other than your usual "the US is a terrible place" view, I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

Life expectancy is a moving target tied to the year you were born. 2019 values are for those born in that year and not for those born earlier or later. If you were born in 1984 in Norway your LE is 76. It would be longer if you are richer and shorter if you are poorer. Women live longer than men too.

If you were born in 2019 in CA, your life expectancy is 81.2
If you were born in 2019 in Norway, your life expectancy is 82.3
If you were born in 2019 in NZ, your life expectancy is 82.2

Those numbers change when you change the birth year selected. In addition, LE changes with geography. the US is quite a large country, unlike Norway and NZ, so where you live can make a significant difference.

Income has a direct effect on LE. the richer you are (at every level) will increase one's LE. It is certainly true in the US and likely true everywhere else too. The differences become more obvious when you have 330 million people rather than 5 million.

From the Harvard link:

For life expectancy, money matters — Harvard Gazette

A new study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows that income is closely correlated with life expectancy, with the richest Americans living as much as 15 years longer than the poorest — and even the poor living longer in wealthy areas.

news.harvard.edu

LE charts by birth years:

New Zealand Life Expectancy 1950-2024

Chart and table of New Zealand life expectancy from 1950 to 2024. United Nations projections are also included through the year 2100.

www.macrotrends.net

Norway Life Expectancy 1950-2024

Chart and table of Norway life expectancy from 1950 to 2024. United Nations projections are also included through the year 2100.

www.macrotrends.net

How the US government calculates LE.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44846

Back in the 70s they wanted to create a big retirement fund kinda like Norways slush fund.

Right ran election ads literally calling it Communist. And here we are now.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Back in the 70s they wanted to create a big retirement fund kinda like Norways slush fund.

Right ran election ads literally calling it Communist. And here we are now.

Nations with big energy (or other sources) slush funds (especially if they are small ones) have great potential to add benefits to the citizens' lives.

 

[Zardnaar]

Nations with big energy (or other sources) slush funds (especially if they are small ones) have great potential to add benefits to the citizens' lives.

We don't really have that option. We do have relatively abundant renewable options though. Good for self sufficiency not so good for export dollars.

Idiots here like comparing us to Scandinavia but overlook Norways oil, Sweden iron ore and industry etc along with EU and geographic advantages.

More comparable to Netherlands or Denmark with no neighbour's within 2000km that matter.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Sheep?

 

[Zardnaar]

Sheep?

Heh market collapsed back in 70s. More dairy now. UK joining EEC/oil shocks in 70's wrecked us along with bad management. Didn't really recover until mid to late 90s.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

SF and Seattle are bad how? High rents? Poor people? Too much cloudy weather? Tech workers complaining they haven't got rich yet? Traffic problems?

Well most tech workers are not as rich (and I talking about people making $250k+ salaries, which is probably more like making $125k or so using average prices) as you may think´much more like middle class, I actually work in tech and have good idea about the situation in USA, those people would quite likely move away from those cities and move to much cheaper parts of USA, especially if they keep the salary. Add very problematic housing situation and rather poor work conditions, the last apply to USA as a whole more or less.

The differences become more obvious when you have 330 million people rather than 5 million.

And why is that, I'm pretty sure numbers of people don't matter in this context, especially since we can look at all the states, each which have much smaller part of that population.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Here is some information about USA healthcare including life expectency of the USA states in 2020

https://www.nicerx.com/best-healthcare-countries/

Only Hawaii is given a life expectency above 80. The largest state California have a population of around 40 million people, Spain have like 47 million people, so rather similar. Life expectency California was at 79 while Spain was at 82 during 2020. Massachusetts could be compared to Denmark, yet have a life expectency like 2 and a half year less. Mississippi could be compared with Albania, but have 5 years lower life expectency, Neatherlands with New York with neatherlands being 3-4 years ahead.

So even if the USA states are treated on their own, in 2020 there seems to be equivalent population sized countries that outdid them, often by a significant degree.

EU which have larger population than USA managed to have a life expectency near the Hawaii level and like 3 years ahead of USA average.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here is some information about USA healthcare including life expectency of the USA states in 2020

https://www.nicerx.com/best-healthcare-countries/

Only Hawaii is given a life expectency above 80. The largest state California have a population of around 40 million people, Spain have like 47 million people, so rather similar. Life expectency California was at 79 while Spain was at 82 during 2020. Massachusetts could be compared to Denmark, yet have a life expectency like 2 and a half year less. Mississippi could be compared with Albania, but have 5 years lower life expectency, Neatherlands with New York with neatherlands being 3-4 years ahead.

So even if the USA states are treated on their own, in 2020 there seems to be equivalent population sized countries that outdid them, often by a significant degree.

EU which have larger population than USA managed to have a life expectency near the Hawaii level and like 3 years ahead of USA average.

Shrugs in NZ more outdood based culture and universal Healthcare is all I've got.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I've really no idea what is going on with USA that life expectency is so much worse than in other developed countries. Yes there are counties in USA that do exceptionally well, but on the state level it don't look good at all. Like the worst states have numbers like Sweden had in 1960 which is absolutly terrible.