So, why Pyramids.

[PieceOfMind]

Isn't this slightly wrong?

Not really. He qualifies it by saying "such that one of them will always produce a great person first." It's just a bit different to the way you chose to word it.

 

[Pangaea]

You're probably right. In any case, it got highlighted now in case others were in doubt as well.

 

[ben-jammin]

Isn't this slightly wrong? The city that produces the GP will get its "counter" reset, but the city that missed out on a GP will still keep its counter and keep going. So even if this city produces less GPP/turn, it can still produce a GreatPerson - as long as the (presumably) GPFarm doesn't wildly outpace it in Great People Points a turn.

It's quite common to have one city producing a lot more points than any others. If you have a good NE city, even cities running a number of rep scientists for the beakers won't actually produce a second great person. Particularly if you've built the NE and Great Library in the same city. I'm well aware of how the points work. I've actually found that if I get the GArtist from music, I may not want to have the national epic built for the golden age so I can get great people from multiple cities. Or of it's built, not in the same city as the great library. You can end up wasting a lot of points and actually slowing down your GP production without good planning.

 

[Ringo Kid]

I tried another noble game with Darius this time. I was planning an immortal rush, but had no horse resource, so I first had to build axemen and take the horses. The enemy was just a tech or two from longbows at that point, so I made peace and teched to Cuirassers - then conquered the other two civs on my continent. Going for a space victory, though it wont be a particularly early one because I have huge tech lead, and have to research everything myself, no one to trade with.
I think an earlier space race would be won at a higher level because the AI would be able to research more quickly.

Anyway the combo of Pyramids and a financial leader is a strong one too. Thanks again everyone for all the tips.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

To quote the best player in the forum and he likes ducks and weeds:

Mids are a crappy wonder.

Still don't fully understand, but according to him, even with lotsa modifiers, that wonder is still crappy.
Best wonders are GLH and Oracle. GLib too.

Well now I officially know I am good at this game. Was about to post that the Mids stink, and that you should build the Oracle and/or GLH instead.

 

[Ringo Kid]

If the goal of building either wonder is to gain science beakers, the Pyramids are far superior to the Oracle.

All you get from the Oracle is one tech. With the Pyramids you get extra beakers for every specialist for 100 turns or more.

So based on that Pyramids are at least ten times more productive than the Oracle even though it only costs less than four times as much in hammers.

Or is my math wrong?

 

[kossin]

It depends really, but in most generic cases, Oracle gives a better outcome.

-more expansion -> more food, hammers and commerce
-beakers now, not later (inflation... 1 beaker at 1500BC is worth a lot more than 1 beaker at 600AD when you try to finish earlier...)

If you get boxed in really early and expansion via war isn't possible, then Pyramids really shine OTOH.

 

[Ringo Kid]

It depends really, but in most generic cases, Oracle gives a better outcome.

-more expansion -> more food, hammers and commerce
-beakers now, not later (inflation... 1 beaker at 1500BC is worth a lot more than 1 beaker at 600AD when you try to finish earlier...)

If you get boxed in really early and expansion via war isn't possible, then Pyramids really shine OTOH.

How does one tech = more expansion? The lost opportunity of the hammers that went into the Pyramids at an early date when hammers are hard to come by?

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

How does one tech = more expansion? The lost opportunity of the hammers that went into the Pyramids at an early date when hammers are hard to come by?

First you aren't taking the right techs as the Oracle will almost always give you a tech that will lead to a major expansion boost. But the Pyramids also cost 3 and 1/3 times as much as the Oracle which is a MASSIVE amount of hammers at 1800 BC. When you are losing out on 350 hammers because you built something that will only effect you much much later you are playing the game wrong. You want to make your economy start to snowball as fast as possible, and that is what the Oracle excels at.

 

[kossin]

1. 500H - 150H = 350H, as you noted [assuming no discounts]
2. Those 350H result in even more hammers
3. 1 free tech is trade bait which means you can trade with the AI and not be so worried about your increasing upkeep

 

[Tatran]

Shaka + early Pyramids (Police State) will become a huge problem later in the game if he is at a different continent.
The other AIs will become one by one a vassal of him until the human player is left.
And war with Shaka who has 90 cities + vassals isn't a fun game anymore.

The Notre Dame (+2 happy) is almost a must have when you want to run Representation before Astronomy is available.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Shaka + early Pyramids (Police State) will become a huge problem later in the game if he is at a different continent.
The other AIs will become one by one a vassal of him until the human player is left.
And war with Shaka who has 90 cities + vassals isn't a fun game anymore.

The Notre Dame (+2 happy) is almost a must have when you want to run Representation before Astronomy is available.

This post makes me want to bang my head against my desk....... NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER build a wonder just to deny it to the AI. Unless you have a preplanned way of using it you are hurting yourself by wasting tons of early expansion. ND is never a must have, and is rarely an easy wonder to get due to it coming with a tech that the AI tend to gun for. It is 2 Happiness in all of your cities for 550 hammers when you could simply trade gold or resources for happiness. 2 health resources for 2 happiness > 550 hammers.

 

[Tatran]

Why not denying wonders to AI when further expansion will bankrupt you and/or a neighbour is too faraway to eliminate.
Either I get the benefit from the wonder or the gold when the AI beats me to it.
At huge maps you have to cool down expansion to get some infrastructure + economic techs.

The only wonder I won't deny is the United Nations; well I actually intent to deny it to the largest civ.
Sometimes I even give away Mass Media to a small civ or vassal when the voting situation makes it impossible to win or worse make it a loss.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Because hammers are a limited resource. You only have so many to work with, and have lots of things to get done. By wasting tons, and tons of hammers early game on a wonder that you don't even have a game plan for you are going to make it so you can't get very many cities, or even strait up lose the game. Just think about it, you are using hammers to try, and get something simply to deny it to the AI. It is possibly the dumbest idea I have heard on CFC, well maybe not the dumbest but it isn't anything you ever want to do.

 

[cseanny]

I agree with Tatran a lot more than Zero. No brainer in my eyes. Quite a few people in the past have used strategies geared at minimizing AIs progress by Wonder Denial. Obsolete comes to my mind at the top of the list.

Sure, early war, conquest gold, and even forced technololgies from sue for peace are great ways to play they game but it's certainly not the only way, or the best way in every circumstance. Speaking in my experience I can't remember the last time I lost a Deity/Immortal game when I had secured the Mids. Hell, I even posted a few #1 HoF Challenge series by grabbing the Mids.

My point is, they are certainly not always going to be an option but in quite a few circumstances they are never a bad thing, and certainly not a "horrible" and "noobie" mistake like some people seem to be advocating.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I almost never do the mids->early rep thing. I've seen some people do well with that style, but it's just not my way of playing. Either I cottage to lib or I attack someone. However, one of my favorite ways to play is to get mids with Ramesses, switch to police state and pump out war chariots.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I agree with Tatran a lot more than Zero. No brainer in my eyes. Quite a few people in the past have used strategies geared at minimizing AIs progress by Wonder Denial. Obsolete comes to my mind at the top of the list.

Sure, early war, conquest gold, and even forced technololgies from sue for peace are great ways to play they game but it's certainly not the only way, or the best way in every circumstance. Speaking in my experience I can't remember the last time I lost a Deity/Immortal game when I had secured the Mids. Hell, I even posted a few #1 HoF Challenge series by grabbing the Mids.

My point is, they are certainly not always going to be an option but in quite a few circumstances they are never a bad thing, and certainly not a "horrible" and "noobie" mistake like some people seem to be advocating.

There are much better options. The Oracle is ALWAYS stronger when leveraged correctly, and costs 350 less hammers, and the GLH is stronger when leveraged correctly. The Mids work in a very niche strategy, and are good in it. But they are a huge waste of time out side of there. What the horrible thing is building them just so some AI doesn't build them. The AI don't have a clue how to use them properly, and so it doesn't matter at all if they build them. The Mids aren't bad just there is much better ways to spend your turns.

 

[cseanny]

I love the Mids when I have an early UU or some great way of leveraging production (lots of trees or happinees/food for lots of whipping) and the neighbor/s I'm conquering have stone/trees. Let's you get the best of everything in my eyes. Conquest gold, more cities, better research, etc. Not to mention it transitions great to Treb/Anything. Sure, not always viable but when these circumstances arise it's very powerful. It's always nice having the choices that REP/PS offer, especially when your able to conquer yourself into a large amount of cities in the Mid-Late ADs. And with lot's of cities MerK works nice too. Just balance civics, research, and whipping and finish the game how you see fit.

 

[lindsay40k]

If I've got Stone and wiggly rivers, I'm often tempted to build them for the GE to rush GLib, RepGLib to boost me at Music, build SC whilst building Academies in the three big cities, then go USuf to rush Cathedrals for a culture game. An entertaining variant on the Marble approach.

 

[Ringo Kid]

Seems like there are many opinions, but the fact that you get more beakers per hammer from the Pyramids makes it the better wonder, by the only measure available.