So, why Pyramids.

[aitkensam]

From my weak (only emp/imm) point of view. I would say people like mids cos they make the game simpler, hard to screw up early Rep.

On lower levels you don't need to be so optimal so can afford to "waste" hammers for a simpler route to victory.

Ofc on Deity etc this may well have got you killed before you got started

(Having said all that I don't really even consider them unless I've got stone, too expensive and Oracle/Glib too awesome.)

 

[PieceOfMind]

Lol. No.

Care to elaborate?

I guess it depends a lot on difficulty. Maybe mids is a more reliable gambit at higher difs. I never play Deity and Immortal rarely, and I admit I've moved to K-Mod where Rep has been nerfed up to High upkeep, not that it changes things dramatically in the very early game.

EDIT...
I see too that GLH has been nerfed up to 300 from 200 in K-Mod, so I might just have to reconsider its value.

 

[ben-jammin]

At higher difficulties GLH goes early and there is no resource modifier. You get less room to expand and have to claim what room you can faster. It's impractical to build it if your capital isn't coastal with a good number of forests, which already rules out a lot of starts on most map types. Then you need to be able to settle numerous coastal (and ideally, off-shore) cities.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great wonder that can win you the game on tough immortal and deity maps (or rather, make winning possible), but it's one you don't actually build on most maps. If you play Archipeligo it's the biggest no-brainer there is. Pangea you'd basically never even try to build it.

 

[PieceOfMind]

That said, are you building mids without stone though? GLH is 200 normally, and mids 500. 5 settlers are 500 (one can factor in a higher cost though due to having to use food). Unless you're boxed in already by the time you start work on it, I'm having trouble seeing it as a good early investment without stone. If the question were which wonder is better when you have stone, then I'd change my mind in an instant.

I hardly ever see Stone early (maybe it's the maptypes I play, probably 10% or less of games) but if I do see stone I'm obviously much more likely to give it a spin.

By the way I agree GLH is out of the question if non-coastal cap. For the question to be meaningful I was assuming we're talking about a coastal cap, as otherwise GLH isn't an option to consider (well, it is in some much more specific circumstances at low enough difs but not worth going over).

 

[SyntaxError]

The Pyramids is a good wonder, but as noted earlier there are better ones. Without stone or the appropriate traits, I'll use the hammers for something else.

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

I will go for chitzen itza anyday, especially when playing as protective.
the extra protection when AI is conquering you is always useful.

 

[ben-jammin]

That said, are you building mids without stone though? GLH is 200 normally, and mids 500. 5 settlers are 500 (one can factor in a higher cost though due to having to use food). Unless you're boxed in already by the time you start work on it, I'm having trouble seeing it as a good early investment without stone. If the question were which wonder is better when you have stone, then I'd change my mind in an instant.

I hardly ever see Stone early (maybe it's the maptypes I play, probably 10% or less of games) but if I do see stone I'm obviously much more likely to give it a spin.

GLH is really 260 hammers if you include the required lighthouse. On immortal or deity you wont have math or a granary, meaning you have to get those hammers pretty inefficiently.


If you're not industrious or don't have stone, you're probably hurting more than helping by putting that many hammers into the mids in the early game. Just like the GLH you only want to build it in specific circumstances, but in those circumstances it will be built very efficiently.


The Oracle is probably the most commonly attempted wonder and the most commonly failed.

 

[ben-jammin]

I will go for chitzen itza anyday, especially when playing as protective.
the extra protection when AI is conquering you is always useful.

Chichen Itza is utterly useless.

 

[SyntaxError]

I will go for chitzen itza anyday, especially when playing as protective.
the extra protection when AI is conquering you is always useful.

Wow, its not often that people would go for Chicken Pizza. I can definitely try it for lunch but don't even bother in Civ 4.

Now Chicken Pizza in Civ 5 is a completely different story.

 

[lymond]

I will go for chitzen itza anyday, especially when playing as protective.
the extra protection when AI is conquering you is always useful.

Chichen Itza is utterly useless.

Yep, worst wonder in the game next to Space Elevator. And AI should not be conquering you....you should be conquering the AI. If that is the case, you have a lot to learn.

 

[simishag]

One thing I've noticed about the Mids is that it usually gets built pretty late. Sometimes in the early game I lag in tech and I run out of infrastructure to build, and the map or tactical situation doesn't really justify a war or military buildup. In that case, with nothing else to do, I'll try to grab the Mids and worst case get the fail gold. Of course you can do this with any wonder, but the payoff for unexpectedly getting the Mids is pretty sweet.

 

[Doshin]

the question is why is representation so good?
I am not so sure by the answer:

its a the best non war civic and better then HR.
I think you are supposed to abuse MIDS and go SE

This is a little simplified, but with specific reference to the Mids...

Players often run numerous specialists in the early game to (1) build an Academy; (2) win Lib; and (3) upgrade units via Great Merchants.

Building the Pyramids means that all of these early Specialists dedicated to generating Great People receive +3

Now, that doesn't sound like a lot. But +3 per specialist goes considerably further in the Classical/Medieval period than, say, the Renaissance. For example:

Calendar: 350
Rifling: 2400

The Mercantilism civic is also often seen as weak, because you lose foreign trade routes in exchange for just one free specialist per city. However, if you are running Representation at the time, the loss of commerce is offset by the free beakers. You can gain extra production (by running Engineers) and deal with the loss of foreign trade routes which occurs when the AI inevitably switch into Mercantilism en masse.

After reaching Military Tradition, Rifling, or Steel, I (at least) tend to stop running specialists in favor of whipping or drafting. This is the point in the game at which Representation becomes available to those civs that didn't build the Mids. It is therefore the time at which the science boost provided by the civic is least useful. (Again, a big simplification.)

I should add that I hardly ever build the Mids. I only consider building it with access to Stone, and even then I usually prioritize claiming good land. It is my favorite wonder to capture, though. That being said, I don't play SGOTM, and the players there are much more informed about these things than I am.

 

[PieceOfMind]

GLH is really 260 hammers if you include the required lighthouse. On immortal or deity you wont have math or a granary, meaning you have to get those hammers pretty inefficiently.


If you're not industrious or don't have stone, you're probably hurting more than helping by putting that many hammers into the mids in the early game. Just like the GLH you only want to build it in specific circumstances, but in those circumstances it will be built very efficiently.


The Oracle is probably the most commonly attempted wonder and the most commonly failed.

Good points. I forgot to also mention mids with stone has the better failgold possibility.

Also, even more than 260, you've got the opp cost of getting Sailing relatively early too.

 

[ben-jammin]

Good points. I forgot to also mention mids with stone has the better failgold possibility.

Also, even more than 260, you've got the opp cost of getting Sailing relatively early too.

There is one situation where you might want to chop/whip the mids even without industrious or stone. If you're boxed in without the possibility of an early rush, it's the one wonder that can keep you afloat. And in this case it's not costing you city sites with the AI already leaving you with only enough room for a small handful of cities (games are winnable with as little as 3 cities...don't think I've seen it done with fewer without an early rush or OCC).

 

[vranasm]

I like Mids and GLH... if you can land both and expand to 11 cities up to 1AD you're god in my book

the thing here is that

- building Mids without stone is suicide
- building GLH without enough coastal cities (or at least 2-3 island cities) is suicide

Mids will be always better in situation without coast, islands and limited land, where Rep will shine (the happy is for 5 cities -> ideal for small effective empire)

GLH will shine with coast, islands and ability to rex to at least 10 cities, where you would need another source of happiness then Rep anyway.

From my experience on Immortal with GLH you will have no maintenance issues on water map with expanding to 15+ cities. That's the power of GLH.

 

[babar]

I enjoy games with the mids more than without, so I'll take any excuse to build them (on Immortal). Very occasionally I build them without stone or Industrious (gasp). More often I settle stupid remote, mediocre cities to get stone which can set me back a bit. Sometimes the 'mids go quite late and you can maths-chop them if you're lucky. I could spend the hammers better certainly, but I could also spend them worse, and they don't cause me to lose (mostly). Maybe because I play no tech brokering, the AI tech pace is slow enough to allow this kind of thing.

 

[Kallikrates]

My limited experience (monarch and emperor, Warlords expansion) is that with stone and/or industrious the Pyramids are usually worth the gamble. And on these levels (and normal speed) I
would first found two or three cities to make sure of stone and horses and/or copper if possible.

I don't think I'd try without stone or an industrious leader (and lots of forests)

Rep Specialists are in the beginning way more powerful than cottages that take a long time. Of course it also depends on the map and whether you have a financial or philosophical leader. But there certainly is great synergy with Great Person aims like getting an early academy, bulbing Philosophy for Taoism etc.
Also the happiness bonus can be essential if you don't have early happiness resources. I don't know about the stats, but I seem to find myself at least as frequently with stone in the range of the first 2-3 cities as without gold, silver, fur, gems. And Calendar I only trade, so will get it rather late, most of the time. The happiness for most of your cities in the BCs also saves you temples etc. (if you even have a religion spread to you in time).
On these levels up to Monarch (not sure about Emperor yet, too few games played and once I was playing Capac with stone, so it was very easy to get them) it seems also easier to beat the AI to the pyramids than to the Oracle, but this depends also on the opponents of course. And for the Oracle to unlock a decisive tech one has to plan properly. The Oracle is wasted if one has not teched fast enough to get at least metal casting or (usually) CoL.
Another bonus are the Great engineer points. Once you have stone you can add the Hanging Gardens (low priority AI wonder, they alway seem to go for ToA, Parthenon etc. first) i the same city.

 

[babar]

There is one situation where you might want to chop/whip the mids even without industrious or stone. If you're boxed in without the possibility of an early rush, it's the one wonder that can keep you afloat. And in this case it's not costing you city sites with the AI already leaving you with only enough room for a small handful of cities (games are winnable with as little as 3 cities...don't think I've seen it done with fewer without an early rush or OCC).

I agree with this, and I would add another situation: when you can block off enough land for later with perhaps a couple of good cities. Spending the hammers on settlers too quickly will slow you down, and if you are assured plenty of land anyway there's usually not much point in attacking anyone. Having lots of jungle around can encourage this slower expansion strategy too.

The main problem is that with your capital tied up you may suffer a fair bit on the worker count. It does also rely on plenty of forests, a very good production capital (likely with weak commerce), and opponents that don't go for the Mids too early.

 

[Funky]

I'm usually not too disappointed when I am beaten to any of the GLH, the Mids, or the Oracle. The GLH is only useful when you start near the coast, Representation from the Mids can often be worse than HR which lets your cities grow much larger, and by the time the Oracle is worthwhile for serious slingshotting it has usually been built already anyway on the higher difficultes. The Great Library however, my absolute favorite wonder, I always try to get if my situation allows for the detour to literature (which in itself is pretty nice, allowing Zeus and the two Epics and leading to the music artist).

These considerations are based on my style of play rather than on mathematical calculations, however.

 

[WelshGandalf]

It's situational, you need to be in a good position to make use of it as others have said.

I would also add, a high-food low-commerce start would be one of these. That is, a lack of gold/silver/gems and decent places to put cottages (riversaid grassland/flood plains). Then your 6-beaker scientists will produce a lot of your total beakers (15 beakers for 2 scientist with a library) and of course produce your great scintists which are the main point of specialists - but that's for another thread...