I totally agree. Wholeheartedly. To be honest I don't see what rolo is complaining about (care to elaborate?).
Oh, and keep up the good work, Solver. Your work is very much appreciated. =)
Solver's unofficial BtS 3.17 patch
- Thread starter Solver
- Start date
I totally agree. Wholeheartedly. To be honest I don't see what rolo is complaining about (care to elaborate?).
Oh, and keep up the good work, Solver. Your work is very much appreciated. =)
Minor Annoyance
Deity
Question: Is that based on getting one Barrage promotion, or getting all three?
r_rolo1
King of myself
Removing Barrage promos from Armored will not solve Barrage for ships ( remember? Battleships and Missile cruisers can get barrage as well..... ). And if a huge ship with 500 + caliber cannons can't deliver collateral damage ,I don't know what can.....
@Minor annoyage : 3.17 as it is makes that all barrage promos deliver 0 effect in terms of collateral damage if the unit does not have native collateral damage ability ( this means anything besides siege and chu-no-ku ( that can't get barrage anyway
)My vote on collateral for Armor and ships is to modify the damage to be as close as possibly to the 3.13 iteration of them.
I thought it was fine in 3.13 and see no reason to remove an alternate promotion line, I want Options.
I love having tanks / modern armor with barrage to soften stacks up. Also consider amphibious assaults, with siege no longer able to attack ampibiously having tanks to soften up with collateral would be my next unit of choice to replace them, if it wasn't borked
Same with ships, often times large fleet stacks are very difficult to kill if no air support, battleships with equal promotions I find I lose the battles more often than not, and need the collateral to soften up the stack.
The loss of collateral on ships and armor is enough for me to Revert back to 3.13.
I'm suprised that you guys don't mind removing it as it is one of my favorite alternative promotion lines. Though I do tend to play into modern age in most of my games, so I use those units more than some people who do not. Please consider the option of making them close to the power of 3.13 if possible!
I thought it was fine in 3.13 and see no reason to remove an alternate promotion line, I want Options.
I love having tanks / modern armor with barrage to soften stacks up. Also consider amphibious assaults, with siege no longer able to attack ampibiously having tanks to soften up with collateral would be my next unit of choice to replace them, if it wasn't borked
Same with ships, often times large fleet stacks are very difficult to kill if no air support, battleships with equal promotions I find I lose the battles more often than not, and need the collateral to soften up the stack.
The loss of collateral on ships and armor is enough for me to Revert back to 3.13.
I'm suprised that you guys don't mind removing it as it is one of my favorite alternative promotion lines. Though I do tend to play into modern age in most of my games, so I use those units more than some people who do not. Please consider the option of making them close to the power of 3.13 if possible!
I think we should go along the lines of Firaxis, which, after all, are the creators of the game. But their intention may be a little unclear this time.
But what do I know. Still, I personally think that armor doesn't need to do collateral. As for battleships, don't see why there should be no "siege weapon" at sea. So no, I don't want that removed. Didn't realize that they were intertwined like that, rolo.
Isn't this solved by simply removing the promotion line from armor and fixing the values for the promotion for ships? Sounds so simple I know, and it probably isn't.
Did Barrage for armor have a very large effect before? If not, why not just remove it totally. It's not like they suffer a balance issue because of it, unlike Battleships and Missile Cruisers, which have no naval successors in the siege department.
But what do I know. Still, I personally think that armor doesn't need to do collateral. As for battleships, don't see why there should be no "siege weapon" at sea. So no, I don't want that removed. Didn't realize that they were intertwined like that, rolo.
Isn't this solved by simply removing the promotion line from armor and fixing the values for the promotion for ships? Sounds so simple I know, and it probably isn't.
Did Barrage for armor have a very large effect before? If not, why not just remove it totally. It's not like they suffer a balance issue because of it, unlike Battleships and Missile Cruisers, which have no naval successors in the siege department.
Hi
I just finished my first 3.17 game and yeah civs seem to cap MUCH easier. The last civ led by HC capped his whole 18 city empire after I took just one city. I DID have a HUGE power advantage over him but still it seemed muched easier than it would have been in 3.13.
If possible I would vote to make it back like it was in 3.13 only with BH’s lil fix of making a civ more likely to cap to whichever civ had done the most damage if more than one civ is at war with him.
Then it seemed to be a mix of power and of personality of leader. Some leaders would fold like origami if you just said boo and others would fight to bitter end. I think that kind of variety added to fun of game. And while 3.17 making em ALL easy to cap is bad I think making em ALL stubborn would be just as bad.
Also I don’t know if it been mentioned here yet but there seems to be a graphics glitch where graphics for roads don’t upgrade to modern version in modern era.
As for tanks I am biased since do use em A LOT so this DOES affect my games in BIG way.
My vote would be 2 if it somehow could be worked out for tanks and MA to get back the damage levels they had with barrage pre 3.17. Yes they were powerful like that but powerful doesn’t = overpowered. And I definitely didn’t think they were controlling game so much as to require a nerf.
Saying mobile artillery still gives an option of fast moving col dam units isn’t really true. The difference between when tanks are available and when mobile artillery is available is HUGE. So for people like me the impact of taking away barrage for armored units changes COMPLETELY the way land wars are conducted and NOT in a good way.
I don’t THINK ships are really affected by this. Battleships and MC’s come with built in col dam so barrage should still work for them now right? And as far as I know I don’t think any other ship ever has access to barrage.
As for just taking away barrage promotions leaving available for option for people to just mod it back. Wouldn’t just modding units so tanks or any other non col dam unit hass access to barrage just put em right back where they are now where yeah thay CAN add barrage promos but since they don’t have native col dam the barrage promos wont do anything. So they would still have to solve the original problem first then mod tanks or whatever other non col dam unit they want to have access to barrage.
Unless you mean you will fix it so barrage would work with tanks effectively but still take away barrage promos just to nerf em?
Either way really isn’t a solution for someone like me since if I COULD do fixes like that myself I wouldn’t be using other ppl’s fixes hehe
.
I have asked this before and someone , rolo, I think still tried to explain it to me but I still don’t get it. The way I understand it the problem is now barrage works as multiplier of a units native col damage. And since tanks and modern armor have no native col damage adding barrage promos does nothing. Or more accurately what it does is multiplies the 0 col damage they start with which ends up being 0 damage being done.
So instead of revamping WHOLE barrage system why not add enough native col damage to tanks and modern armor so that barrage would do similar damage it did in 3.13 patch?
That would fix barrage for armored units but wouldn’t affect the other units that new barrage formula is already working for. And like I said it wouldn’t even affect ships since battleships and mc’s already have native col dam so barrage works for them and no other ship units can get barrage anyways.
Well those are just my thoughts. I guess bottom line is I HOPE you decide to fix barrage for tanks and modern armor so they can work like they did before. Since it really does have a MAJOR impact on my game. And probably for anyone who uses armored units a lot.
And I really never thought tanks were overpowered in previous versions and definitely not so strong as to need nerfing. I don’t think tanks need to be stronger than they were before . I would just like for somehow to have them like they were before 3.17 patch which I thought was just fine. So put me as yes vote for whichever way gets them as close to that as possible.
Kaytie
I just finished my first 3.17 game and yeah civs seem to cap MUCH easier. The last civ led by HC capped his whole 18 city empire after I took just one city. I DID have a HUGE power advantage over him but still it seemed muched easier than it would have been in 3.13.
If possible I would vote to make it back like it was in 3.13 only with BH’s lil fix of making a civ more likely to cap to whichever civ had done the most damage if more than one civ is at war with him.
Then it seemed to be a mix of power and of personality of leader. Some leaders would fold like origami if you just said boo and others would fight to bitter end. I think that kind of variety added to fun of game. And while 3.17 making em ALL easy to cap is bad I think making em ALL stubborn would be just as bad.
Also I don’t know if it been mentioned here yet but there seems to be a graphics glitch where graphics for roads don’t upgrade to modern version in modern era.
As for tanks I am biased since do use em A LOT so this DOES affect my games in BIG way.
My vote would be 2 if it somehow could be worked out for tanks and MA to get back the damage levels they had with barrage pre 3.17. Yes they were powerful like that but powerful doesn’t = overpowered. And I definitely didn’t think they were controlling game so much as to require a nerf.
Saying mobile artillery still gives an option of fast moving col dam units isn’t really true. The difference between when tanks are available and when mobile artillery is available is HUGE. So for people like me the impact of taking away barrage for armored units changes COMPLETELY the way land wars are conducted and NOT in a good way.
I don’t THINK ships are really affected by this. Battleships and MC’s come with built in col dam so barrage should still work for them now right? And as far as I know I don’t think any other ship ever has access to barrage.
As for just taking away barrage promotions leaving available for option for people to just mod it back. Wouldn’t just modding units so tanks or any other non col dam unit hass access to barrage just put em right back where they are now where yeah thay CAN add barrage promos but since they don’t have native col dam the barrage promos wont do anything. So they would still have to solve the original problem first then mod tanks or whatever other non col dam unit they want to have access to barrage.
Unless you mean you will fix it so barrage would work with tanks effectively but still take away barrage promos just to nerf em?
Either way really isn’t a solution for someone like me since if I COULD do fixes like that myself I wouldn’t be using other ppl’s fixes hehe
.I have asked this before and someone , rolo, I think still tried to explain it to me but I still don’t get it. The way I understand it the problem is now barrage works as multiplier of a units native col damage. And since tanks and modern armor have no native col damage adding barrage promos does nothing. Or more accurately what it does is multiplies the 0 col damage they start with which ends up being 0 damage being done.
So instead of revamping WHOLE barrage system why not add enough native col damage to tanks and modern armor so that barrage would do similar damage it did in 3.13 patch?
That would fix barrage for armored units but wouldn’t affect the other units that new barrage formula is already working for. And like I said it wouldn’t even affect ships since battleships and mc’s already have native col dam so barrage works for them and no other ship units can get barrage anyways.
Well those are just my thoughts. I guess bottom line is I HOPE you decide to fix barrage for tanks and modern armor so they can work like they did before. Since it really does have a MAJOR impact on my game. And probably for anyone who uses armored units a lot.
And I really never thought tanks were overpowered in previous versions and definitely not so strong as to need nerfing. I don’t think tanks need to be stronger than they were before . I would just like for somehow to have them like they were before 3.17 patch which I thought was just fine. So put me as yes vote for whichever way gets them as close to that as possible.
Kaytie
Nishdog
Isolationist Bastard
As much as I enjoyed collateral damage tanks with multiple attacks per turn
it did seem a bit too strong of a unit as it was...I'd be okay with tanks not having barrage. But modern navies should certainly have the ability, so if there's any way to sort that out, that would be ideal. I'm a fan of readme files, so perhaps one of those telling the user where to put the new files should be a good solution?
r_rolo1
King of myself
kurtkage, 3.13 barrage effects were completely broken, because the promos didn't gave the promissed effect and sometimes promoting from barrage I to II would not make any effect at all. I suppose that you don't want to mimick that in 3.17 j/k ... Barrage tanks were nice to deal with SoD, and barrage battleships sometimes were the only way to deal with a modern sea invasion ( i had my share of that in some OCC_AW games in archipelago: Barrage battleships + Blitz destroyers = Naval SoD nightmare ).
Caboose, the situation is quite simple: Like I said in other post, only siege and Chu-no-ku have native ( i.e no need of promos ) collateral strength, the variable that rules the damage made by collateral damage. That was not a problem in 3.13 and before because the Barrage promos gave col. strenght to units, so a Barrage promoted unit would always have col. strength.....
In 3.17 Barrage does not give col strength to units, making that units with no native col. strenght will still continue to have 0 col. strenght no matter how many barrage promos they have, making the barrage promos useless ( 1,20*0 = 0 ).....
This means that fixing this for ships will most likely also fix this for armored, and if you block the promos to armored, it is far better to do it to ships as well... because it is exactly the same problem....
About deanej quote.... I tend to agree with him, but not completely. The code was made like there was no untis with barrage besides siege, that's for sure and alexman post yesterday in the " Is barrage broken?" Thread in Strategy and tips ) saying that the best solution for this was to block barrage to armored because they already were strong enough like they are and that was what he had said to Solver..... I would say something like this: they coded the thing with the idea of "barrage = siege", they thought about removing barrage from armored, forgot about ships and in the the end also forgot about removing barrage from armored, leading to this mess.....
j/k ... Barrage tanks were nice to deal with SoD, and barrage battleships sometimes were the only way to deal with a modern sea invasion ( i had my share of that in some OCC_AW games in archipelago: Barrage battleships + Blitz destroyers = Naval SoD nightmare ).Caboose, the situation is quite simple: Like I said in other post, only siege and Chu-no-ku have native ( i.e no need of promos ) collateral strength, the variable that rules the damage made by collateral damage. That was not a problem in 3.13 and before because the Barrage promos gave col. strenght to units, so a Barrage promoted unit would always have col. strength.....
In 3.17 Barrage does not give col strength to units, making that units with no native col. strenght will still continue to have 0 col. strenght no matter how many barrage promos they have, making the barrage promos useless ( 1,20*0 = 0 ).....
This means that fixing this for ships will most likely also fix this for armored, and if you block the promos to armored, it is far better to do it to ships as well... because it is exactly the same problem....
About deanej quote.... I tend to agree with him, but not completely. The code was made like there was no untis with barrage besides siege, that's for sure and alexman post yesterday in the " Is barrage broken?" Thread in Strategy and tips ) saying that the best solution for this was to block barrage to armored because they already were strong enough like they are and that was what he had said to Solver..... I would say something like this: they coded the thing with the idea of "barrage = siege", they thought about removing barrage from armored, forgot about ships and in the the end also forgot about removing barrage from armored, leading to this mess.....
Hi
Just for record I am 100% sure battleships have native col dam too since in game I just finished my non barage bats were doing col dam to other ships even without barrage and I am pretty sure MC's have it too. And like I said I dont THINK any other type of ship can get or ever got access to barrage. So I dont think ships are affected by this either way.
Kaytie
So if I understood it correctly, you can fix this by simply removing the promotion line from armor and making sure Battleships and Missile cruisers have native collateral damage?
I think that would be the best. I like to follow the ideas behind the balance tweaks from Firaxis.
I think that would be the best. I like to follow the ideas behind the balance tweaks from Firaxis.
First of all, Barrage on ships will still work fine. Battleships and Missile Cruisers that can get it also have a "base" collateral damage value, just like siege weapons, so they are unaffected by the broken behaviour. The only problem we have is with armored units - Tanks and Modern Armor.
The current solution isn't good, also because additional Barrage promotions have very little effect. A Tank with Barrage II will have almost no improvement over a Barrage I Tank, doing very little damage. It's silly, really. Here's why I lean towards removing the Barrage line from armored units:
1. Should promote mixed arms. I barely ever use Mobile Artillery. I use Bombers/Destroyers for city bombardment, and usually keep a couple of Barrage tanks around for collateral, if needed, leaving Mobile Artillery unused. Disallowing Barrage for Tanks will actually mean that Mobile artillery would get used more as a fast-moving collateral unit.
2. Tanks already can come in three flavours without Barrage. Combat promotions for the ultimate general combat unit, City Raider for the ultimate city attackers and Flanking for nice hit-and-run tactics. It's a lot of flexibility
3. It's also the preferred solution of Alex. I like to think of this as a patch and not a mod, keeping the changes close to what Firaxis would approve of.
The current solution isn't good, also because additional Barrage promotions have very little effect. A Tank with Barrage II will have almost no improvement over a Barrage I Tank, doing very little damage. It's silly, really. Here's why I lean towards removing the Barrage line from armored units:
1. Should promote mixed arms. I barely ever use Mobile Artillery. I use Bombers/Destroyers for city bombardment, and usually keep a couple of Barrage tanks around for collateral, if needed, leaving Mobile Artillery unused. Disallowing Barrage for Tanks will actually mean that Mobile artillery would get used more as a fast-moving collateral unit.
2. Tanks already can come in three flavours without Barrage. Combat promotions for the ultimate general combat unit, City Raider for the ultimate city attackers and Flanking for nice hit-and-run tactics. It's a lot of flexibility
3. It's also the preferred solution of Alex. I like to think of this as a patch and not a mod, keeping the changes close to what Firaxis would approve of.
Then there isn't much of a mess after all. Only that Barrage indeed is a useless promotion for armor, as stated in the other thread Simple fix for once, eh Solver? 
Love the fact that we have people like you around. Much love!
I guess that Firaxis guy tried to tell us that by the way, so I don't undertand all the confusion.
Simple fix for once, eh Solver? Love the fact that we have people like you around. Much love!I guess that Firaxis guy tried to tell us that by the way, so I don't undertand all the confusion.
About the capitulation issue. I haven't played a full 3.17 game yet but... In 3.13 and before it always annoyed me how most wars I waged, the AI would never capitulate until it was useless as a vassal. I was glad that 3.17 was going to give me, for once, a useful vassal. However, I can easily see Shaka becoming the board leader in every game because of that, because yes he shows up in every game I play, that #(*^*&@. So I dunno what to say... I don't think I'd fiddle with what Firaxis has done to capitulation, I'd leave it, for now...
r_rolo1
King of myself
*hides in shame*
hmm ok fair enough.
I assume that the intent then is to have no collateral damage to coincide with amphibious assaults? Siege is out, tanks are out, fighters don't do it.
If this is the intent of the devs then so be it I guess, I'll bring more carriers.
I still feel like I will miss the collateral from armor in the field / city attacking / stack busting.
I assume that the intent then is to have no collateral damage to coincide with amphibious assaults? Siege is out, tanks are out, fighters don't do it.
If this is the intent of the devs then so be it I guess, I'll bring more carriers.
I still feel like I will miss the collateral from armor in the field / city attacking / stack busting.
EmperorFool
Deity
I totally agree with removing Barrage from Armored units entirely. While I too find Barrage-promoted Tanks useful -- even combined with City Raider for making quick work of Infantry-protected cities -- I find it both unrealistic and overpowered.
I agree with removing barrage promotions from tanks. It isn't needed, since tanks are already plenty powerful enough without barrage. I'd rather keep the current 3.17 behaviour, and simply remove the promotion line that doesn't work.
It's a much more simple fix, and less likely to have unintended side-effects.
It's a much more simple fix, and less likely to have unintended side-effects.
Hi
I will miss them too but it looks like we are outvoted in this thread by people who dont use tanks as much and want them nerfed
Kaytie
Ahahah, "don't use tanks as much". Well, I can tell you that I do use tanks a lot, with City Raider. Besides, this is already a part of official 3.17 patch, only they forgot to remove the promotion buttons. So if you don't like it I guess you should keep playing 3.13.
