Some musings on the Colossus

[shyuhe]

So I rarely build this wonder these days, but I'm starting to wonder if it's a mistake given its super low hammer cost with copper. Coastal tiles start at 1/2, 2/2 with a lighthouse. With a Colossus, they start at 2/3. Now suppose you plan on warring in the renaissance era, so approximately turn 200. For grassland cottages to provide enough commerce to equal the output of a Colossus empowered coastal tile, you need to work:

Cottage (10 turns) - 10 coins
Hamlet (20 turns) - 2 coins x 20 turns = 40 coins
Village (40 turns) - 3 coins x 40 turns = 120 coins.
Town (40 turns) - 4 coins x 40 turns = 160 coins.
For a total of 330 coins over 110 turns.

By comparison, the Colossus gives you in 110 turns:
Coastal (110 turns) - 3 coins x 110 turns = 330 coins.

So you would need to start working a cottage before turn 90 before you start to get better returns on cottages than Colossus empowered coastal tiles, in anticipation of a war on turn 200. Turn 90 falls at around 625 BC on normal speed (I think). So if you can get the Colossus and plan on warring in the renaissance, isn't it almost always better to build a lighthouse and work coastal tiles instead of trying to grow cottages? Put another way, isn't the Colossus an amazingly good wonder (even more so with half price lighthouses from organized)?

Note that for ocean tiles, cottages break even vs. Colossus ocean tiles at turn 40.

 

[pi-r8]

Interesting analysis. But I think what this really shows is that non financial, non riverside cottages are bad, rather than showing that the collussus is good. Remember that each citizen adds maintenence costs, which is about 1.5 . So this cuts the profit of colossus coast tiles in half, while grassland cottages actually lose money.

 

[UWHabs]

If your choices are plain grassland cottage vs lighthouse coast, sure, it's not bad.

But usually you have riverside tiles to work, and riverside cottages are better than lighthouse coast tiles.

It is useful if your land can't support the riverside grassland cottages - it makes coast acceptable to work. Especially if you're also financial, it can make coast tiles pretty solid, letting your workers concentrate on other tiles or developing new cities. Probably best for HC (Fin/Ind), on an archipelago map.

 

[drlake]

Yes, but...

There are additional benefits you aren't noting:

First, you get the commerce sooner with the Colossus, increasing its value. 1 commerce on turn 90 is worth more than 1 commerce on turn 200, so even though the cumulative commerce generated by one tile is the same whether it is cottaged or coastal 110 turns after building the Colossus doesn't mean you've received the same benefit. That's the plus side...

Second, it doesn't cost any worker turns to benefit from the Colossus, while you have to build each cottage. This can really add up since the Colossus benefits all your cities, not just where it is built.

On the down side:

First, river tiles produce 1 extra commerce per turn, making them match coastal Colossus tiles after 10 turns of working, and better after 30. You should work cottages next to rivers before Coastal regardless of the Colossus.

Second, you have to use hammers to build the Colossus, and unless you have Copper it's pretty expensive (2.5 settlers if no modifiers apply). If you have an industrious leader and Copper, well that's a different story, but if that isn't the case then you are paying a heavy up front cost for a medium term gain.

Third, the Colossus goes obsolete about when you'll be going to war, while those Towns do not. They pay off a LOT more in the long run, as a result.

 

[shyuhe]

I'm assuming you will stuff the riverside tiles full of farms to maximize growth on to the coastal tiles. This is more of a question of what to do with the non-riverside green tiles left over (should you farm them for growth on to coastal or cottage them). As for any mature towns, I'm assuming they probably won't be worked for the duration of the war since you'll be busy whipping/drafting. I'm not too concerned about long term returns, as more land will always be better.

 

[z0wb13]

interesting analysis. map type will have huge implications wrt whether this is a sound strategy or not, but i see what you are getting at. if you are on a watery map, the returns seem pretty good, and probably around the time that colossus obsoletes you will be able to run free speech, so you can start to play catch up with your cottages. during the interim, i'm not sure what you could do, maybe start a war or something.

still, it is hard to imagine such a crappy map that you would actually want to do this, and you have to divert research down to the bottom of the tech tree. unless i pop a great merchant (i think) from the great lighthouse, i tend to trade for metal casting, but there is a better shot at it if you take it from the oracle.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So I rarely build this wonder these days, but I'm starting to wonder if it's a mistake given its super low hammer cost with copper. Coastal tiles start at 1/2, 2/2 with a lighthouse. With a Colossus, they start at 2/3. Now suppose you plan on warring in the renaissance era, so approximately turn 200. For grassland cottages to provide enough commerce to equal the output of a Colossus empowered coastal tile, you need to work:

Cottage (10 turns) - 10 coins
Hamlet (20 turns) - 2 coins x 20 turns = 40 coins
Village (40 turns) - 3 coins x 40 turns = 120 coins.
Town (40 turns) - 4 coins x 40 turns = 160 coins.
For a total of 330 coins over 110 turns.

By comparison, the Colossus gives you in 110 turns:
Coastal (110 turns) - 3 coins x 110 turns = 330 coins.

So you would need to start working a cottage before turn 90 before you start to get better returns on cottages than Colossus empowered coastal tiles, in anticipation of a war on turn 200. Turn 90 falls at around 625 BC on normal speed (I think). So if you can get the Colossus and plan on warring in the renaissance, isn't it almost always better to build a lighthouse and work coastal tiles instead of trying to grow cottages? Put another way, isn't the Colossus an amazingly good wonder (even more so with half price lighthouses from organized)?

Note that for ocean tiles, cottages break even vs. Colossus ocean tiles at turn 40.

Riverside cottages payback their investment sooner and thus are more competitive, and specs/mines might be superior also, but colossus is definitely an underrated wonder that can drastically improve tech rate. The problem is often getting it - short of oracle, it's hard to beat the AI to MC unless you have a lot of mineral luxuries and so want to go there ASAP, and the AI likes colossus too.

 

[stopstopp]

I may be underrating the colossus, it's actually pretty good when your cottages aren't big, but I can't usually get it, as I don't go for oracle without marble.

I don't think the colossus is definitely underrated though, as it is hard to get in many situations.

 

[Wreck]

The problem is often getting it - short of oracle, it's hard to beat the AI to MC unless you have a lot of mineral luxuries and so want to go there ASAP, and the AI likes colossus too.

Yeah, I rarely get it. The AIs prioritize MC higher than I do because I am busy attempting to get Currency to right my shaky economy.

The difficulty of getting it also feeds back into its utility, via city placement. If you knew for sure that you could get Colossus, i.e. if it were a national wonder, then you would emphasize coastal city placement much more than you do, including early coastal cities. But since you know you probably won't get it, you don't.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I used the Colossus in my last HoF gauntlet game, a huge domination at Epic speed.

I could reach an enormous continent with Monty, Suleiman and Julius on it with galleys though so I built a ton of galleys, circumnavigated with caravels, and delayed astronomy until I really needed it. I had the Great Lighthouse as well. It was Prince difficulty.

I was playing as Shaka and was alone on a really big continent (most of it was tundra though). I sword rushed Ramesses who also had a pretty big continent to himself early on, again reachable by galleys.

EDIT: It took me a month to play though My PC doesn't run Civ very well

 

[kossin]

Or simply put, in DaveMcW's words:

riverside cottage>colossus coast>cottage>financial colossus ocean>coast

Obviously, you might put riverside tiles to other uses than cottages, like farms early on to grow instead. etc

 

[bhavv]

I always like having it in my GLH city on archipelago maps, but only manage to build it about 20% of the time on Monarch.

The extra commerce is aways a strong boost, particularly when settling lots of cities around food resources. I also like to have the free GM points, as I consider them to be the best great person and like getting as many as I can.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Yeah my Wall Street city on the huge map was generating something like 800gpt with the Jewish shrine, loads of settled GMs, and Sushi spread to all my cities

 

[Grashopa]

You have to balance also the opportunity cost of getting MC early enough combined with forge + colossus hammers. By the time the colossus would be up I've already got CS with a cottaged bureau cap or I've already taken a neighbor at HAs or catapults.

I'd rather you have said financial means you should be settling the coastline. With financial leaders this is often a big difference between my game and others on the forum. Less workers and more commerce early.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Huge maps with lots of coastal cities = GLH + Colossus really good.

I was running vassalage most of that game anyway.

 

[r_rolo1]

Or simply put, in DaveMcW's words:

riverside cottage>colossus coast>cottage>financial colossus ocean>coast

Obviously, you might put riverside tiles to other uses than cottages, like farms early on to grow instead. etc

The real pickle is where to put collosus lake with lighthouse Better than a riverside cottage per se, but if you factor the maturing things are not so linear...

 

[vicawoo]

You have to balance also the opportunity cost of getting MC early enough combined with forge + colossus hammers. By the time the colossus would be up I've already got CS with a cottaged bureau cap or I've already taken a neighbor at HAs or catapults.

I'd rather you have said financial means you should be settling the coastline. With financial leaders this is often a big difference between my game and others on the forum. Less workers and more commerce early.

You could make similar arguments about great lighthouse. I don't think anyone truly understands how the colossus fits in the metagame.

 

[budweiser]

You have to balance also the opportunity cost of getting MC early enough combined with forge + colossus hammers. By the time the colossus would be up I've already got CS with a cottaged bureau cap or I've already taken a neighbor at HAs or catapults.

I'd rather you have said financial means you should be settling the coastline. With financial leaders this is often a big difference between my game and others on the forum. Less workers and more commerce early.

The Colossus goes up by 500BC or not at all unless you have hammers to burn. The best play is a seafood cap that can go Oracl>MC.

 

[obsolete]

#1 problem with Colossus, is it obsoletes so god damned early. It's about as bad as when stonehenge went obsolete at Calendar.

 

[ICNP]

Collosus and Great Library should have later expiration dates. And Metal Casting shouldn't cost so much.