Some thoughts on Original Sin...

Mojotronica

Expect Irony.
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Messages
3,501
Location
Seattle, WA, USA
The Bible says that we are all sinners for being descendents of Adam & Eve, because they committed the Original Sin -- disobeying God by eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

By modern legal standards, children are not held accountable for the sins of their parents (although this was not always the case -- see, for example debtor's prisons, or the slave system.) Our underlying supposition -- children are born with a "clean slate.

Original Sin is an exception to our modern concept that children are a clean slate.

So why should the descendents of Adam & Eve be held liable for the sins of their ancestors?

Because the descendents of Adam & Eve somehow PARTICIPATED in the Original Sin, in some way.

My explanation for this is that the consequences of Adam & Eve getting banished f/ Eden benefited their as yet unborn descendents in some way. The nature of time is "stackable..." that is, every event that precedes another event by its nature supports the subsequent event, but not the reverse. In other words change the past and the future is also completely changed.

Each child born is a miracle of coincidence. A missed glance here, a missed bus there, an ill-timed headache -- any one of a billion -- no -- a trillion factors might have resulted in a child not being born. It was important that every event happened exactly the way it did in order for all of us to be sharing in this e-mail today.

This means that (unwittingly?) I had a vested interest in every atrocity of human history up until sometime in July of 1970, when I was conceived. The Original Sin, the slaughter of the Native Americans and colonization of the New World, slavery, the Irish potato famine, the Civil War, Nazi Germany's rise, the Holocaust, the use of the A-Bomb against Japan, segregation, JFK's assassination, the Vietnam war, Nixon's election...

All of these events were almost certainly NECESSARY if I were to exist on this Earth. So I share in the atrocity.

Imagine in a parallel dimension all the as yet unconceived souls diligently manipulating the time-space continuum to manifest their own existence. Those as yet unborn children function as guardian angels, helping the living here and there, or as demons, driving the living to commit atrocities, all to create circumstances favorable to their existence.

In some other nether-realm are all the unborn who missed their window of opportunity. The instinct to survive -- to exist -- is so powerful that they are tormented by their lack of being. They are always seeking ways to work the system. There are more loopholes than you might expect. This drive to exist is strong enough to overcome our natural reluctance to share in the cesspool that is the accumulated sin of humankind.

In fact, the younger one is the more sinful they necessarily are, since w/ each passing year the number of sins and atrocities grows larger. One of the purposes of recording history is to record the sins that we, the recently born, are guilty of. Intuitively we know that whatever we may do in life -- a petty-theft, an oath broken, a furtive murder, a night spent drinking and gambling away your child's college fund, a visit to a prostitute... all of these acts pale in comparison to the overwhelming balance already tallied against us on our karmic scale.

Recognizing this, our human laws seek to reduce this behavior. We pass laws intended to keep people from sinning, to at least prevent future children from inheriting still greater sin from us. But these laws never work completely. The debt grows, the sin grows and the wages of sin is death.

Whenever someone writes a time travel story they speculate about going back in time and preventing the death of Lincoln or Kennedy, assassinating Hitler when he was a child or accidentally sleeping with their great-great-great Grandma... But they never think about taking the time machine back to the Garden of Eden before the Cherubim would guard the entrance and throttling that strange, legged Serpent before it had the chance to tempt Eve into eating the fruit.
 
I think the fact that we are born sinners is a fact that points at other things. God created us says the Bible, and God gave us freedom of choice says the Bible, yet God punishes us for doing what God knew all along (being all-knowing) we would do. Smart. I can't help but feel that the Christian God did NOT make us in His image. Or maybe we developed logic somehow when He had none?

As for the time machine idea... I say why go to jail for stealing a pack of gum, when you can rob a bank instead? We are all born sinners because one pie ate an apple? Shoot. I would at least make the fact that we are born sinners worthwhile.
 
Well, that only makes sense if you believe in the story you talk about, a story that is very unlikely to be true, much much more than the mere existance of a god.
It is an idea that seems terrible to someone who doesn't believe in it. It's a very negative dogma, seeing newborn babies as sinful.

Originally posted by Mojotronica
Whenever someone writes a time travel story they speculate about going back in time and preventing the death of Lincoln or Kennedy, assassinating Hitler when he was a child or accidentally sleeping with their great-great-great Grandma... But they never think about taking the time machine back to the Garden of Eden before the Cherubim would guard the entrance and throttling that strange, legged Serpent before it had the chance to tempt Eve into eating the fruit.
I guess that is because most of those who write such stories rather look at science (it is science fiction after all), and from a scientific point of view the story is simply not true, at least not literally.
 
It's not about benefiting, it's about controlling. If a security company owner benefits during a crimewave is that a sin? Even if he had absolutly no part in it?
 
You wrote in Nixon's election as an "atrocity." :rolleyes:

Nothing more than partisan rhetoric.
 
Myself and the church I belong believe that we are reponsable for our own mistakes and not for anyone else's. That includes Adam and Eve.
 
Speaking from long experience involving children, I think that the concept or original sin is largely overblown. Even if we are responsible for our own actions, every child old enough to self propel has learned the difference between right and wrong. Long since in fact. This in 99% of the cases covers the matter. For the other 1%, I can say "I dont know" with a clear conscience." Before anyone makes comments on the type of God who would damn children, remember, Heaven is not somewhere ANYONE can get without assistance. Childlike faith is the standard which is set for the adult.

J
 
Daaraa,

Hmm, your church must not be fundamentalist then. According to the Bible, we are each born sinners, because Adam & Eve (our ancesters) committed the Original Sin. So no one (except Jesus!) was/is born w/ a "clean slate." Well, except Adam & Eve... but they blew it!

My idea is to bring into focus the magnitude of Original Sin, the futility of Earthly "works" in our salvation and add a modern, sci-fi element to the mythology to bring it into the 21st Century. I am guessing, based on the negative reaction, that I've either offended people or scared them or they don't understand (or the whole idea is just stupid... :-) )

I apologize for any offense. None is intended. I just wanted to use the forum to hash out some thoughts on this.

I just wanted to present an aspect of Christian ideology in a new way.
 
Some curses go down many generations. Like if you try to leave the freemasons or whatever and break your oath, the repercussions go down through your descendants. It could be like that, only more so. Anyway, I thought christ's death did away with the original sin.
 
Blather onwards, fundamentalists. Man is responsible for his own actions, and at birth, has nothing to be forgiven for. Common sense so dictates.
 
Originally posted by The Troquelet
Blather onwards, fundamentalists. Man is responsible for his own actions, and at birth, has nothing to be forgiven for. Common sense so dictates.
What is common about sense? What does it have to do with sin? Even humanists have a concept of sin.

J

PS For the record, I believe that the allusions which most people refer to as original sin have another intent entirely. Not that it matters. With a standard of perfection, everyone does. Even if the standard was our own self concept, we would all fail.
 
Mojo,
Yes, I and the people I attend religious services with are not fundamentalists. Also, we do not feel that the Bible says we suffer from original sin as different versions ofthe Bible can be contradictory. The one we use leaves it open and is not definate.
God is a just and fair God. Troquelet is right. We are not born with sins attached to us. That would be unjust and God has to be just.
I feel that our "works" do matter but only to a point. We can never "work" ourselves into perfection therefore grace is there to make up what we lack after all we can do. Else what would we be judged on? We must be judged on some works. Faith without works is dead.
 
I you want a modern sci-fi interpretation of biblical myth, look no further than the Matrix.
 
Originally posted by jpowers
I you want a modern sci-fi interpretation of biblical myth, look no further than the Matrix.

Ah, yes, Neo a.k.a. The One...
It does seem like they borrowed some inspiration somewhere...;)
 
Originally posted by Mojotronica
So no one (except Jesus!) was/is born w/ a "clean slate." Well, except Adam & Eve... but they blew it!
Don't forget about Mary, she too was also born without Original Sin.
 
Just to put down a few thoughts and feelings....

1)
God created us says the Bible, and God gave us freedom of choice says the Bible, yet God punishes us for doing what God knew all along (being all-knowing) we would do.
We as humans have children, even though we know ahead of time that they are going to be hurt, fail, and yes, some of them are going to kill and be killed. Yet we do so anyway. We raise our children and punish them for their wrongs as best we can, because we love them. What would the point be, if we raised them in a closed room and never let them venture out. They would be alive and innocent, but they would also not reach their full potential. God doesn't punish you for what he knew you were going to do, but for what you did do when you were faced with a choice.

2) We are not born with a debt of sin, we are born in sin. There is a big difference. Yes, even a small child is capable of sin. Jesus clearly stated that all men have the law written in their hearts. We all are born knowing right from wrong. How well we choose the path between the two is bases for what will happen to us. What are parents did has no effect on us. However, the results of a persons sin can last for generations.

3) While the bible states that the only way to get into heaven is through Jesus, it doesn't say you have to believe in him to go to heaven. Jesus himself said that those who live outside the faith will be judged by the law written on their hearts. Those that truely believe in him will not face judgement, as they have already been judged. The ones who face judgement in the end are those who have died outside the body of Christ.

4) The mixture of original sin with fatalism is a little strange. Each of us is here because two people decided for whatever reason to have a child, or decided not to do anything to stop from having one. If you want to take a fatalistic view, then even the change a one or two peoples deaths, no matter how important, will have no lasting effect on the long term future of the world. If it hadn't been Hilter, it would have been someone else. If JFK hadn't been killed, it would have been someone else. However, in the long run, nothing JFK would have done would have had a measurable effect 2 thousand years from now, maybe even 500 years. So, if in your time machine, you go back and kill someone, the effect would only be a small "ripple" in time and the general path of history would remain unchanged. Human history is more likely driven by technology than by individuals. Look at how many times there are competing claims as to who really invented something. As the saying goes, whan it comes time to railroad, someone is going to railroad. It doesn't matter who does it.
 
Back
Top Bottom