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Sons of Monarchy II: Suleiman

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Giant Wolfman, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    252
    That is my thinking too. 50 hammers for a 5 city attack and 8% siege, versus 80 hammers for a 8 city attack and 16% siege. Pretty marginal difference.
     
  2. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
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    3,663
    Don't do that - you get all sorts of wrong answers when you pretend it means something to multiply the base strength by the attack bonus.
     
  3. cseanny

    cseanny Chieftain

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    CR2 cats fail miserably vs fully fortified LBs while CR2 Trebs mop the floor.

    CR2 cat vs LB CG1 is about 21% chance
    CR2 cat vs LB CG2 is about 8% chance

    CR2Treb vs LB CG1 is about 77% chance
    CR2Treb vs LB CG2 is about 56% chance

    You could easily lose 3Catapults while a Trebs have more potential for zero losses.
     
  4. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
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    Or you can save the 3000 beakers and just wage cats against archers. I guess if you are willing to go without fishing you can bulb your way to Engineering, it may be more worthwhile then, I've never done that tbh.

    OK, I do some tests. trebs vs. non-protective level 1 flatland archers w/ 25% fortify bonus is 4.0 against 2.85. Cats are 5 vs 5.85. Against non-protective lvl 1 flatland LBs w/ 25% defense bonus, the matchups are 4 vs. 4.44 and 5 vs. 9.9, respectively - on the first attack, and with no siege beforehand.

    You will need 4-5 cat attacks or 4 treb attacks to give an unpromoted sword winning odds against fortified LBs.

    If you are doing cats-elephants against LBs then you still need 4-5 cat attacks against fortified LBs to give them winning odds, or 4 treb attacks. Its the same as with swords.

    If you have xbows, you will need 9-11 cats, or 8-10 treb attacks to give the xbow winning odds against the same number of fortified LBs with no siege beforehand.
     
  5. Kaosprophet

    Kaosprophet Chieftain

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    Did you check survival rates as well?
     
  6. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

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    No those are just combat odds.
     
  7. cseanny

    cseanny Chieftain

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    1,107
    @ Lackey

    I've been doing lots of Medieval war lately and your numbers dont add up to me. Could be my fault but my experience tells me a different story.

    If a non-hill city has 2LBs @CG1 which are fully fortified and you have CR2 Cats, say 3 as a random number. Quite often you'll lose ALL 3 Cats w/out killing a single LB simply because you're only a 22% chance to win. Often the 1st LB will only take .5 damage. Then with your next Cat you attack the remaining Healthy LB and the same thing happens. You have now lost 2cats and there are still 2 LBs with 4.5 health. It's not hard to imagine losing a 3rd Cat during this.

    Now if you have 2 CR2 Trebs who have a 77% chance to win you'll typically end up with an attack which leaves your Treb alive and deals out 4.5+ damage to both LBs. And thats from ONE treb. By the time your 2nd attacks they are both below 1Health.
     
  8. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    With RNG, you can take all those calcs and still hope for best, Only.

    But the thing about war is there are so many dynamics that need to considered. I rearly waste more than 2 -3 cats against a city. Some time after first I find that the cat martyr had done enough damaged to the main defender and colateral damaged the remain that now it is actually better to give my axe shot against the remaining healthiest defender. ANd then bring back the cats for promotions as needed.

    And yeah some times a LB will kill all my attackers. it is just part of the game. But the thing is with little planing, you can have cats against easier foe than LB's but LB's are not invincible. Again to my original assesment, cats do very well against its main defender the archer and the treb does well against its main defender, the LB. Compairing cats and trebs against a LB is not very apple to apple.
     
  9. DanielTorrence

    DanielTorrence Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
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    Location:
    Germany
    I am just curious with all the discussion about siege going on here. I saw AZs attempt on deity and it would be interesting to see how other players managed that situation at least on Immortal?
     
  10. Keilah

    Keilah Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
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    785
    actually i'd say that catapults are more likely to run up against some mixture of promoted/fortified archers, and a few metal units.

    I personally rate trebs above catapults as they have IMO a much longer lifespan of viable use.

    PS:
    Spoiler :
    did anybody else build the pyramids?
     
  11. Keilah

    Keilah Chieftain

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    Anybody beat this on Immortal+ ?

    Spoiler :
    This map is a pain in the ass. No commerce, an agressive, boxed in neighbour to the west and desert -> charly to the east. Nobody researched alpha until around 1ad and every AI to the east of me has 10+ peaceful cites. I took out Kublai easily with elepult but he vassaled to China with 1 city left, and it's a former barb spot way out east past charly.

    I'm at a loss for a victory target. I could try cannons + janissaries (if I can lib steel) and eventually rifling but i'm not certain to take the continent with that and my long term research potential is weak.
    Other alternative is to somehow someway turtle up for a culture victory but it's quite late to be just starting on that (900ad or so)...
     
  12. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    Czech Rep.
    was planning to try, but kind of forgotten/didn't have enough time to touch it at least.
     
  13. Keilah

    Keilah Chieftain

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    Immortal/normal

    Spoiler :
    Domination in 1655
    Turned out I didn't even need rifling, although I teched really far at the end thanks to vassals. Built some airships at the end which, although not needed, were fun and, I must say, much better than fighters because of their 8 range. Also much better than bombers because there is no anti-air in the sky at the time of airships.

    Better than 4:1 Kill : Death ratio, not bad for a cannon/musket army in the 1100-1600s.
     
  14. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    3,226
    Haven't played in awhile, so I played a first set.

    Spoiler they shall sings songs about me :


    This is what happens when all your warriors die early to non barbarian archers while defending in forests.
     
  15. Keilah

    Keilah Chieftain

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    lol =]
     
  16. DanielTorrence

    DanielTorrence Chieftain

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    Congratulations, that is a great finishing date. Could you provide some more information about your play?
    Spoiler :

    With how many cities did you start your Elepult war, at what time? That map is driving me crazy, it takes ages to march to the AI-opponents and I went bankrupt after axe-rushing Kublay Khan - he did not have copper and it took him a while to get
    iron, so I took my chances but after that I had 8 cities and no commerce at all...
     
  17. DanielTorrence

    DanielTorrence Chieftain

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    Thats really tough luck.

    Spoiler :
    I like your city spot, though. Its long term better then the PH (that I used for more production), but if Kublay gets frisky, aren't you better on a hill?
     
  18. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    @vic

    how you like losing units on 20% odds? happens to me all the time against barbs... am always so angry and rage quit happy.
     
  19. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    I would have preferred the desert hill sheep to the south, but Kublai got that. I'd rather get some of that land, it's good setup city.
     
  20. Keilah

    Keilah Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    OK, from memory...
    I took the copper city, then the northeastern stone/floodplains, then the southern fish, and later the clams/elephants/iron spot (didn't know it was iron there until later but whatevs). Elephants were so awkward to get, the clams AND elephants were 2nd ring, and i settled it probably 8 turns too late, which delayed my elepult attack a little.
    I used the stone to chop out the pyramids, a hammam, and the hanging gardens (figured why not? I have stone + math and hammam is > aquaduct). I built an academy in the cap and let my rep scientists slow tech me to hbr & construction, which led to a pretty late attack date around 200-300ad.

    Cleaned up Kublai and kept most of his cities by 900-1000ad (slooooooooowwwwwwww), then used a great engineer on Taj Mahal for a golden age and went paci/caste (bulbed philo earlier), 2x bulbed education, 1x bulb on each of printing press and chemistry, and got steel with liberalism. China almost beat me to Lib.

    Went Police State/Nationalism/Slavery/Theocracy as soon as steel came in and whip/drafted a nice army astoundingly fast (also upgraded some cats to cannons), then attacked Charly and crossed my fingers. He had huuuuuuuuuge stacks of knights and trebs but apparently cannons/janissaries do quite well against that because it was an absolute slaughter. I had to take 5 of his cities before he capitulated, including one which held both a shrine and the great lighthouse, which helped.

    From that point on I just rolled through opponents, taking a few turns of peace to gather my army but not even stopping to heal as my army + production were huge.

    My economy was total garbage but it didn't matter, trades + failgold + city captures + golden ages got me through it until the end where I built wealth instead of cannons. Took 20-ish turns to reinforce across the continent anyways =p
     

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