Soren Johnson's Blog

Since I had a _lot_ of problems with both things in Civ5 (terrain tiles bleeding into each other, and units being hardly recognizable on the terrain), I wish they had continued to follow this rule instead of concentrating on "organic looks". This may be a preference issue, but Civ4 clearly matched mine better in this case.

Psyringe, that was exactly what I was thinking while watching that video :lol:

And you are not alone with the terrain identification issues, that's clearly a case of where "shiny looks" got preference over good usability.

I think Soren forgot to mention one important thing though. Both games had a tile grid overlay as an option. At least in civ5, this pretty much completely solves any tile identification issues. I use it about 50% of the time I play. In civ4 I used it as well.

With the grid on, I really think both games have very easy to identify tiles. Having said that, when tile grid is off in both games, I would definitely agree that civ4 has the easier to identify tiles. Squares tend to do that. :)
 
never had any problem seeing tiles in civ5... I prefer the look of the game infinitely more than civ4s
Also the whole 1upt mechanic and stuff.

shame about the core systems
 
I listened to Soren's talk.
Very worthwhile.
It is clear that he has thought long and deeply about many issues and tradeoffs in game design.
 
From Soren's google talk, you have the three types of players. Civ5 was clearly designed for the challenge players, given the strategic AI. The rest of us are left wanting more.

???????????????????????????

why are we not feeling any challenge then?
 
Found a video at Soren Johnson's blog where he talks about all facets involved in making CIV IV. He mentions that one of the most important things that makes CIV enjoyable, is that "we want the player to win, or at least understand why they lost."

Everyone involved in making CIV V should watch this video

Wrong. His "good AI" vs "fun AI" broke civ IV to a large extent. His "fun AI", when heaped with gobs of bonuses, wound up deciding games at turn 0 based entirely on the luck of which "fun" leaders spawned and where. Sound "fun"? I can think of a different word starting with "f" for that.

Just like civ V, he also mysteriously failed to address shoddy controls (or an emphasis on good, streamlined controls) or the tremendous amount of processing power both games take in a genre that should take less than average. HMMMMMM.
 
Wrong. His "good AI" vs "fun AI" broke civ IV to a large extent. His "fun AI", when heaped with gobs of bonuses, wound up deciding games at turn 0 based entirely on the luck of which "fun" leaders spawned and where. Sound "fun"? I can think of a different word starting with "f" for that.

Just like civ V, he also mysteriously failed to address shoddy controls (or an emphasis on good, streamlined controls) or the tremendous amount of processing power both games take in a genre that should take less than average. HMMMMMM.

Did you get the feeling while watching that video that he just didn't seem to believe everything that he was saying? The entire thing felt disjointed. Almost like he didn't have his finger on the pulse of everything that he was trying to explain. Almost like he was trying to tell everyone what they wanted, not relaying what he had learned about what everyone wanted.
 
Wrong. His "good AI" vs "fun AI" broke civ IV to a large extent. His "fun AI", when heaped with gobs of bonuses, wound up deciding games at turn 0 based entirely on the luck of which "fun" leaders spawned and where.

Could you explain this in more detail ? Generally i am completely fine with the fun AI in civ 4 and most of the restrictions for the AI make sense to me.
 
With the grid on, I really think both games have very easy to identify tiles. Having said that, when tile grid is off in both games, I would definitely agree that civ4 has the easier to identify tiles. Squares tend to do that. :)

My problem is rather that it's not always clear which terrain type a tile has. The infamous "organic" look is achieved by what Psyringe calls tiles bleeding into each other, with smooth transitions between terrain types. So a flatland tile surounded by hills ocasssionally looks like a hill itself.
 
With the grid on, I really think both games have very easy to identify tiles. Having said that, when tile grid is off in both games, I would definitely agree that civ4 has the easier to identify tiles. Squares tend to do that. :)
While the grid helps, it doesn't remove the issue. I still have to look longer at the tiles or units to recognize them and to correctly identify the situation. However, I should add that my eyesight isn't the best (for example, I'm currently looking at a 19'' monitor with a 1024x768 resolution, and my browser is set to a default zoom of 150% so that I can read the text without effort). I hugely prefer clear-cut lines and areas, not only in Civ5, but in general. It's perfectly possible that Civ5's display works very well for people with good eyesight - but unfortunately that doesn't really change the fact that I still found myself squinting at the screen a lot during my Civ5 games.

I don't want to exaggerate it (I'm not half-blind or something like that, and I'm still blessed compared to many other people), but just as an attempt to describe my situation better: When I listened to the Civ5 PR material where the designers praise their design goal to create an "organic" look, I felt a bit like a guy in a wheelchair, standing in front of a public building, and the architect raves about how good the building now looks once they did away with the ugly ramps and focused on great-looking stairways. ;) And in the Civ4 material, Soren and Dorian sounded more like "We thought stairs would be a good idea for our building, but after we tested it, we found out how important it was to provide easy access, so we scrapped the stairs and built ramps instead." You can see why my preference is with the latter approach? ;)

why did he leave? more money? better job? hated management, etc?
I doubt we'll ever know. It's a pity, imho.

why are we not feeling any challenge then?
I agree with deanj here - Civ5 was designed mainly for the "challenge" player, but the implementation so far just fails to provide a challenge.

Wrong. His "good AI" vs "fun AI" broke civ IV to a large extent. His "fun AI", when heaped with gobs of bonuses, wound up deciding games at turn 0 based entirely on the luck of which "fun" leaders spawned and where. Sound "fun"? I can think of a different word starting with "f" for that.
Yep, me too: fantastic! :) I really liked this feature a lot, it gave the AIs character. And I hate it when designers try to make each AI equally strong. I do think that your "the game is decided at turn 0" is an exaggeration though.

However (and that's why we usually disagree in such discussions) my playstyle is probably the opposite of yours. I like to play very slow, very long games, on super-huge maps, with at least 30 civs on the map. I absolutely don't mind if some AIs play stronger than others because I'll always have a lot of strong AIs on the map anyways.
 
My only real complaint against the Civ IV AI is that it gets too many bonuses on Deity. Sure, the hardest difficulty level should be hard to beat, but to me it ruins most of the fun when you play as an industrial leader, build your capital on a stone and resource, immediately research masonry to build TGW... But still an AI beats you to it. Then 10 barbarians approach your borders - Game Over. This makes it far too risky and costly to actually build any wonders. Instead your best bet is to keep restarting until your neighbour builds the "must have" wonders.

Another example: You begin alone on a medium size island. All AI's begin on the same continent. Good luck.

I believe that even on the hardest difficulty level, a really good player at least should have a theoretical chance to win the game by making wise decisions. Maybe I'm just not good enough, but too me it feels that some games are just impossible to win no matter how well you play. And this is the opposite of fun to me.
 
Yep, me too: fantastic! :) I really liked this feature a lot, it gave the AIs character. And I hate it when designers try to make each AI equally strong. I do think that your "the game is decided at turn 0" is an exaggeration though.

However (and that's why we usually disagree in such discussions) my playstyle is probably the opposite of yours. I like to play very slow, very long games, on super-huge maps, with at least 30 civs on the map. I absolutely don't mind if some AIs play stronger than others because I'll always have a lot of strong AIs on the map anyways.

Obviously that guy was talking about a game a) where there are fixed mineral and vespene patches. b) where "workers" move at the same speed and collect the same X amount of resources. c) where the maps are symmetrical and d) there is always parity in tech progression assuming decent macro and micro. e) where units are grouped and balanced in rockpaperscissors fashion. f) where the race bonuses are always at a unit level and building level.

contrast these things to civ. a) resources are random, mostly luck based. b) workers are not equal: some are built quicker than the rest (with a certain trait), some move peculiarly faster. c) maps are asymmetrical--call it fractal. d) tech progression are dependent on a whole of slew of factors, the most relevant include traits, number of cities, specialization, gp production, and one-time build wonders like the oracle, the pyramids, great library and the internet among others. e) units may have some appearance of balance but their use ultimately depends on production capacity, diplomacy and civ traits which is, apparently never equal. f) civ bonuses are empire and macro wide. on top of that, civ has specific units and buildings tied to whoever you are playing as.

so, in the first kind of game philosophy, a "good ai" would be perfect. the ai's mirror human abilities and decisions to give the human player a challenge in sp. but if you're any good, the real adrenaline fix can only come from mp. in mp, matches are decided by pure skills, technique and gambits and not by luck.

in the second kind of game philosophy, the "fun ai" is perfect. why? role playing elements, the fact that civ is open-ended, non-adversarial (civs do not start at war with each other at the outset), and the sheer number of variables to take into account, balanced or not, come into mind.

point is, not only is the phrase an exaggeration, it is also misplaced and maybe even irrelevant. civ ai are designed (or should be) according to a certain heuristic where the ai is not always out to get the human player (except III and V). the game plays out like bacteria slime on a petri dish. the fun is always in the process of nurturing an empire rather than the outcome. so when anyone says games in civ are decided at turn 0 might be in it only for the end victory screen which is just fine and normal actually. truth is, personally, an interesting and well-deserved loss is just as well a fun victory for me. i guess to each his/her own.
 
My problem is rather that it's not always clear which terrain type a tile has. The infamous "organic" look is achieved by what Psyringe calls tiles bleeding into each other, with smooth transitions between terrain types. So a flatland tile surounded by hills ocasssionally looks like a hill itself.

I'd be willing to place a bet you didn't run the game on immortal+.

Two (reasonably common) outcomes from the asserted "fun" AI in civ IV:

- Human spawns next to creampuffs or in a world filled with them. Using diplomacy, he eliminates any possible chance of any AI declaring on him anywhere, and cruises to his choice of culture, diplo, or tech + conquer type victories (Easy games, sometimes even easy on deity, sort of)

- Human spawns next to a somewhat-unreasonable AI or an idiot like toku. "fun" AI with personalities on the other continent: Gandhi, Isabella blocked into minimal land, Sury, and washington. When you meet Sury around 1100-1200 AD, he is at war with and finishing off washington, with gandhi dead or capvassal'd and izzy as a peacevassal. Sury, before war, had 20% of the world's land (in a 7 civ game!), but with all of his peace/war vassals and conquests, now has over 40%. You have...maybe toku's land, hard fought, or a simple 14% TOPS, but sometimes 10% or less if the RNG feels fresh.

Playing on exactly the same difficulty with exactly the same ability on exactly the same map script, you can run roughshod over scenario 1 and win easily, and have just about 0 chance in game 2. The problem with "fun" AIs is that when you implement them, SOME of them try, and the rest don't. That quickly results in stupid runaway situations where several AIs essentially GIVE land free of charge (via underexpansion or peacevassaling senselessly) to a super AI...meaning these "fun" AI are now effectively dogpiling you...based on a random chance factor of who-spawns-where turn 0.

Some "fun". V's AI struggles mostly because 1) diplomacy is opaque and convoluted and 2) while it tries to win, not all of its actions are yet consistent with that goal. Civ V's AI is actually MARKEDLY better than stock IV's AI, and that's by design. It mainly suffers from non-dynamic strategic choices in V (war and/or huge empires are pretty much the only strong tactic) and the fact that 1upt is a lot harder tactically than "put 150 cavalry onto a tile and march at each other or humans' cities).
 
While the grid helps, it doesn't remove the issue. I still have to look longer at the tiles or units to recognize them and to correctly identify the situation. However, I should add that my eyesight isn't the best (for example, I'm currently looking at a 19'' monitor with a 1024x768 resolution, and my browser is set to a default zoom of 150% so that I can read the text without effort). I hugely prefer clear-cut lines and areas, not only in Civ5, but in general. It's perfectly possible that Civ5's display works very well for people with good eyesight - but unfortunately that doesn't really change the fact that I still found myself squinting at the screen a lot during my Civ5 games.

There is definitely some "overflow." But yeah, I have the tooltip setting so I get immediate response rather than the delay, which helps a ton.

Personally, I like the more natural look, but that's just a personal preference. It wouldn't bother me either way.
 
Is that really such a terrible issue? Different games play out in different ways. Sometimes you get peaceful AI neighbors, sometimes you get warlike AI neighbors. Sometimes you get a strong starting position, sometimes you don't. Some games are easier than others. I don't think that's a problem with game design, it simply shows that there are always some random elements to each map.
 
Is that really such a terrible issue? Different games play out in different ways. Sometimes you get peaceful AI neighbors, sometimes you get warlike AI neighbors. Sometimes you get a strong starting position, sometimes you don't. Some games are easier than others. I don't think that's a problem with game design, it simply shows that there are always some random elements to each map.

This. This random factor, luck, what-have-you, is the one thing that makes me play Civ4 for years.
 
Is that really such a terrible issue? Different games play out in different ways. Sometimes you get peaceful AI neighbors, sometimes you get warlike AI neighbors. Sometimes you get a strong starting position, sometimes you don't. Some games are easier than others. I don't think that's a problem with game design, it simply shows that there are always some random elements to each map.

It becomes a problem when it combines with other gameplay elements to create un-winnable situations (either completely or for a given skill level on a chosen difficulty) or when it breaks the original intention of a "fun" and/or "role play" AI in the first place.

It's not like "fun" by Soren's definition = unpredictable, either. A while back, DMOC posted some deity games where the player was hidden off in a part of the world the AI would never, ever see. He would then simply run the game until one of the AI won. He only got a few games posted that way, however I was able to accurately guess the winner in each as well as several trials of my own. If they're that predictable, how is it they are "fun" exactly? Having AIs randomly do nothing/not try constitutes a "fun" AI? In a game where there can only be one winner, arbitrary activity that props one side up isn't "fun", it is fake difficulty. Maybe you disagree with me, but I don't see a place for fake difficulty in civ...or most games for that matter.

It was also particularly annoying that super AIs would deliberately defend culture (via peacevassal) AIs in what amounted to an active attempt to lose the game and take the player with it. That's..."fun"?

Far more engaging would be AIs that actively attempt to win...in separate, viable ways. Civ V misses on the "separate, viable ways" bit. Combining forces against a stronger opponent, making temporary alliances which mutually raise chances of victory against the remaining opposition, and pursuing different kinds of victories can make competitive AIs a lot more compelling than "ohai I'm gandhi I build no units and go for culture consistently...come kill me quickly before shaka does it or instead kill shaka and save me for later".

Deliberate AI stupidity + bonuses do not a good game make. Competitive AI + reasonable bonuses + legit balance of options makes a much better game. Going back to the "fun AI" model would doom civ V...thankfully they know better.

This. This random factor, luck, what-have-you, is the one thing that makes me play Civ4 for years.

Luck should only have so much impact. Entire outcomes should not be based on luck alone. Veteran players ran into this problem however; on difficulties where luck had no chance of deciding the game on its own, there was no challenge for them. On difficulties that truly tested the player, it was possible to lose on turn 0 if the RNG felt like it...or some close approximation.

It's like a more extreme version of events. Most events were pretty benign, but Vedic Aryans early were a guaranteed kill shot, and things like bermuda triangle = "LOL your 100 destroyers/battleship escorting 40 full transports sinkz nao" were also beyond stupid and a great way to insta-lose in a game that takes people hours (fortunately I was one of the fastest players). Things like this start to matter more when a XOTM or MP game is stupid enough to leave them on and they single-handedly decide the outcome.

For every person who likes IV's luck-based gameplay, I hope you get Vedic Aryan'd 10 games in a row. In MP.
 
I think Soren nailed it too when he was refering to CIV has a TILE-base game.

Since now all the tile seem to be the same there's no fun anymore... they've bet on the "Yay! My archer is on a hill" fun factor... which is pretty much has boring has it can be to every "normal" civ player out there.
 
I think Soren nailed it too when he was refering to CIV has a TILE-base game.

Since now all the tile seem to be the same there's no fun anymore... they've bet on the "Yay! My archer is on a hill" fun factor... which is pretty much has boring has it can be to every "normal" civ player out there.

Please explain how people that enjoy the game are not "normal." Are you using yourself as the barometer of "normalcy?" Are the people that like the game better than "normal?" Are they worse than "normal?"

Feel free to elaborate rather than just tossing a baited hook into the water, hoping to catch a fish.

It's one thing to dislike the game, or even to insult the game. But to insult people that have nothing to do with the game itself other than they find joy in it. Well, that really just tells everyone more about you than it does about them.

If Civ5 alienates "normal" people like you, even if I did not like it, I would consider buying it just out of principal with hopes that it would keep you "normal" people away.
 
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