Soviet Liberalization?

Allende was a racist scumbag, and his refusal to compromise or to step back on some of his reforms is what set Chile on fire. Not to mention the failure of his policies. Allende was a radical, just because he is idolised by a bunch of people who do not know history doesn't mean he is deserving of that idol status.
luiz, some of what you've said in your posts I agree with, some I don't, and some I don't know enough about to have more than a gut opinion of, so I won't get into that. But I can't leave your appraisal of Allende alone.

As for him being racist, I don't know and won't comment. I can say that I've never heard anyone refer to him as a racist besides you, and I've never come across any evidence to suggest that he was.

Now, as for his reforms setting Chile on fire; that is nothing but a crock of sh*t. What set Chile on fire was absolutely massive amounts of CIA funding, culminating in paying off Pinochet to launch a military coup.

Allende was a democratically elected head-of-state. He did not gain power through a coup, a revolution, or outside intervention. He was democratically elected to run his country under the laws of his country by the people of his country. Henry Kissinger resonded to this by stating, publicly: "these issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves" and "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its people."

You're South American, so you should know that unlike just about every other Latin American nation, Chile did not have a history of military interference in government. There had been a few occasions where the military stepped in, but they always relinquished their power to democratic governments. So why the change?

Are you aware that a short time before Pinochet's coup, the Chilean ambassador to the United States, Orlando Letelier, was assassinated in Washington D.C., with the assassins never found? Nor indeed, was any investigation conducted. Why? Because the assassination was almost certainly conducted by the CIA at the direct instruction of Henry Kissinger.

Letelier was Pinochet's predecessor as commander-in-chief of the Chilean Army. He was highly respected, and if he gave an order, the military was likely to obey it, regardless of whether he was still in uniform or not. This removed anyone that could contradict Pinochet's orders.

The economic dislocation in Chile was caused, not by Allende's reforms, but by a plummet in the worldwide price of copper, Chile's primary export. The reason? Because the United States bought a tonne of copper from sources other than Chile, then flooded the market with it. In addition, there were economic and transportation problems caused by striking truck drivers outside of Chile's major cities. Many of these truck drivers were paid by CIA agents operating in Chile to do so, in much the same way that the term "rent-a-crowd" came into the vocabulary to describe the rioters in Tehran that helped remove Mossadegh from power, most of whom were hired by the CIA.

With the economy and transportation in shambles, Allende was forced to take austerity measures to ensure Chile's populace was fed. Austerity measures, in the absence of war, never work. People are short-sighted, and stupid. They think; "before Allende I could buy consumer goods, and grow fat on imported food. Now I cannot do these things," and they make the connection that Allende is responsible, when it is actually outside forces at work. These people then began to riot. Pinochet, prepared by the US, moved in.

Thousands of Chileans were killed in the subsequent purges. The book Rapanui, by an anthropologist studying the people of Easter Island (Rapa Nui) details how one army unit drove to a university, found a group of Rapanui students, none of who were even twenty years old, one of whom was an attractive girl. They forced all of them, male and female, to strip naked, then took the attractive girl into the next room, and raped her one by one, over and over, for hours. She permananetly damaged her vocal cords, she screamed so loud and for so long. This pattern was repeated all over Chile.

How, in your twisted mind, Allende did all this to Chile, is beyond me.
 
Wrong?

Way wrong. Said pact's announcement in August 1939 was what induced the French and British governments to begin mobilization (kind of hard for Western historians to ignore it then hmm), and Western historians have been noting it all the time, from Shirer to Keegan.

...You don't have much access to literature in English, do you? :p

as for English literature I have more than enough access to it, but i'm not that interested in soviets and company to read cold war oppinions on WW2
just a story I heard (from history student), didn't say it's definitly true, didn't surprise me cause of all the things more or less successfully covered up about WW2 in the west

Sorry, but this movie is some kind of Goebels thing - people faster belive in greater lies. In plain words - this is just simple antisoviet propaganda without any regard to historical facts.



1. During famine of 1932-33 people die almost in half of USSR (not only Ukraine, but in south-est Russia, Black Sea-Caspian region and parts of Khasahstan).
2. Estimated death toll (by real research, not by bringing numbers from the blue sky) is 1.2-2 million people.
3. During the famine Soviet government minimized exports and depleted all reserve grain funds to provide food to popultaion.

If any interested - I may provide some more precise numbers and info about this famine.


If pact of Molotov-Ribbentrop was alliance between USSR and Germany, Munich treaty between Germany, England and France also alliance.

antisoviet propaganda, ok
but where did they lie??????

--------------------

feel free to provide all the precise numbers you have

--------------------
Munich treaty was a game of big powers in Europe trading with small countries territories, makes you wanna puke, but not near an alliance

Molotov-Ribbentrop on the other hand was an alliance (seriously, do you have any other name for a treety in which two country agree on attack on third country(ies) and then attack and divide that country together?)

luiz, some of what you've said in your posts I agree with, some I don't, and some I don't know enough about to have more than a gut opinion of, so I won't get into that. But I can't leave your appraisal of Allende alone.

As for him being racist, I don't know and won't comment. I can say that I've never heard anyone refer to him as a racist besides you, and I've never come across any evidence to suggest that he was.

Now, as for his reforms setting Chile on fire; that is nothing but a crock of sh*t. What set Chile on fire was absolutely massive amounts of CIA funding, culminating in paying off Pinochet to launch a military coup.

Allende was a democratically elected head-of-state. He did not gain power through a coup, a revolution, or outside intervention. He was democratically elected to run his country under the laws of his country by the people of his country. Henry Kissinger resonded to this by stating, publicly: "these issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves" and "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its people."

You're South American, so you should know that unlike just about every other Latin American nation, Chile did not have a history of military interference in government. There had been a few occasions where the military stepped in, but they always relinquished their power to democratic governments. So why the change?

Are you aware that a short time before Pinochet's coup, the Chilean ambassador to the United States, Orlando Letelier, was assassinated in Washington D.C., with the assassins never found? Nor indeed, was any investigation conducted. Why? Because the assassination was almost certainly conducted by the CIA at the direct instruction of Henry Kissinger.

Letelier was Pinochet's predecessor as commander-in-chief of the Chilean Army. He was highly respected, and if he gave an order, the military was likely to obey it, regardless of whether he was still in uniform or not. This removed anyone that could contradict Pinochet's orders.

The economic dislocation in Chile was caused, not by Allende's reforms, but by a plummet in the worldwide price of copper, Chile's primary export. The reason? Because the United States bought a tonne of copper from sources other than Chile, then flooded the market with it. In addition, there were economic and transportation problems caused by striking truck drivers outside of Chile's major cities. Many of these truck drivers were paid by CIA agents operating in Chile to do so, in much the same way that the term "rent-a-crowd" came into the vocabulary to describe the rioters in Tehran that helped remove Mossadegh from power, most of whom were hired by the CIA.

With the economy and transportation in shambles, Allende was forced to take austerity measures to ensure Chile's populace was fed. Austerity measures, in the absence of war, never work. People are short-sighted, and stupid. They think; "before Allende I could buy consumer goods, and grow fat on imported food. Now I cannot do these things," and they make the connection that Allende is responsible, when it is actually outside forces at work. These people then began to riot. Pinochet, prepared by the US, moved in.

Thousands of Chileans were killed in the subsequent purges. The book Rapanui, by an anthropologist studying the people of Easter Island (Rapa Nui) details how one army unit drove to a university, found a group of Rapanui students, none of who were even twenty years old, one of whom was an attractive girl. They forced all of them, male and female, to strip naked, then took the attractive girl into the next room, and raped her one by one, over and over, for hours. She permananetly damaged her vocal cords, she screamed so loud and for so long. This pattern was repeated all over Chile.

How, in your twisted mind, Allende did all this to Chile, is beyond me.

I wanted to write a long long long post on this topic why Allendes economic policy was ******** and destined to fail, but how that wouldn't matter to anyone on this topic (god dam those copper traders and those truck drivers and those...) didn't see the point

so, to keep it short, very short talk about communist episodes common for the third world

like the picture says...
96011740tz1.png

oil, copper, iron etc etc
all resources with cyclical price rises and falls

when prices are low poor third world country that usually has only one of them invites foreign investment so they would produce and export that resource

prices are cyclical, and so at some point price of resource goes up
some communist reformist comes to power and in order to protect the poor bla bla bla nationalizes resource production --> profit is now in his hands

prices are cyclical, and so at some point price of resource goes down --> ouch, no money for communist reformist
not only that, how goverments never know how to do bussiness current resource production is only part of what it was at the point that industry was nationalized --> ouch, no money for communist reformist

in one way or another third world country is bound to go to hell, and communist reformist ends dead (or you have something like Zimbabwe)...

Venezuela is next, that exact moment oil returns to relatively normal levels...
 
but where did they lie??????
Give me any statement from the film. It almost totally consist of lies, misinterpreted facts and other ways of propaganda warfare.

Most basic example: they speak about famine in Ukraine during 1932-33 and using foto footage of famine in Volga region during 1923-24. No such striking foto or video material on "holodomor" exist, so they use material "from other sources", but never speak about it. This is lie? Lie.

Molotov-Ribbentrop on the other hand was an alliance (seriously, do you have any other name for a treety in which two country agree on attack on third country(ies) and then attack and divide that country together?)
Have you read the text of the pact itself and secret protocols? In it weren't anything about attacking and dividing Poland. Only statements about spheres of influence.

Munich treaty was a game of big powers in Europe trading with small countries territories, makes you wanna puke, but not near an alliance
But they officialy and openly divide Czechoslovakia. Even Poland had some nice part of it (Teshin region, with some very good industry).
 
At knez: didn't want to quote your whole thing, so I'll just mention that I'm not arguing that Allende's policies were ever going to work. I know enough about both economics and Chile at the time to know that they wouldn't even come close to succeeding. I agree with luiz that Communism is an inherently flawed system, albeit far from evil. Stupid, yeah. But that doesn't change the fact that the US quite clearly interfered with Chile's economy.

The flooding of copper into the international market by America is an easily verified fact, if you know any decent economics websites. I don't, I'm not an economist, but I know several newspapers and economic journals - whose statistics are quoted in many of the books I've used to gain that knowledge - that might have websites dealing with it, and CIA and Chilean files both strongly hint that the CIA bribed Chile's version of a truckdrivers union. Of course, that can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt, but that's the benefit of covert action - plausible deniability.
 
Luiz, you clearly do not have a comprehensive enough understanding of Marxism to make effective criticisms. You seem to be incapable of distinguishing between Marxism and Leninism, and it is readily apparent you haven't read Marx firsthand. Marx consistently defined communism as democratic, with the exception of a transitory period of dictatorship by the majority (which, essentially, isn't really anti-democratic either, just anti-liberal).

Marx wrote precious little about communism itself, as you would know if you'd read much. Most of what Marx wrote was criticism and analysis of capitalism. He is ascribed many positions he never had in the popular imagination - positions which may be features of Leninism, Stalinism, or Trotskyite theory but not Marx. Marx detested social welfare of any sort, for instance, and described his communist society not as one in which people would receive their needs from the state (which was to be abolished), but would have free access to production capital so that they could satisfy their material wants and needs through their own labour. Likewise, Marx never said anything that could be construed as vanguardism, which was a product of Leninist and Trotskyite thought.

You appear to be criticizing Stalinism, mostly, but your arguments do not have much impact on Marxism because you are attacking features Marxism does not have.

Marxism certainly has numerous flaws which are easily criticized, but frankly, I am not confident you have the least notion what they are.

*******

As for the thread in general, Soviet liberalization in the 50s or 60s: not gonna happen! This was too close yet to the Third Russian Revolution and Lenin's Red Terror against the Mensheviks and others - easily within living memory of a huge proportion of the population, in fact. It would be difficult to rationalize a turn to what was, essentially, Menshevik policy without repudiating Leninism and thus the foundations of the Soviet state.
 
Kniz said:
prices are cyclical, and so at some point price of resource goes down --> ouch, no money for communist reformist
not only that, how goverments never know how to do bussiness current resource production is only part of what it was at the point that industry was nationalized --> ouch, no money for communist reformist

This is a particularly stupid argument, mainly because it's an argument for government intervension in the economy not one against it. It's true that prices are volatile, and indeed, farmers with not safety net, infant companies with no government backup, and so forth, are especially vulnerable. So an unprotected market economy is far more vulnerable to prices changes than a mixed or command economy is.
 
This is a particularly stupid argument, mainly because it's an argument for government intervension in the economy not one against it. It's true that prices are volatile, and indeed, farmers with not safety net, infant companies with no government backup, and so forth, are especially vulnerable. So an unprotected market economy is far more vulnerable to prices changes than a mixed or command economy is.

it's not a stupid argument, it's a fact

it's just the way market system works

the thing is, nothing else works in the real world
 
it's not a stupid argument, it's a fact

it's just the way market system works

the thing is, nothing else works in the real world

Yes, but price changes are an argument for government, not one against it. It's an argument for government promoted diversification of the economy so that the economy is not vulnerable to the collapse of one export, and it's an argument for protection to medium and small businesses which might be productive in the future but could collapse in the short term due to these price changes. It's an argument for agricultural protection, a safety net for poor farmers and other citizens alike, who cannot just say "oh well, we'll go hungry for the next five years".
 
Yes, but prices changes are an argument for government, not one against it. It's an argument for government promoted diversification of the economy so that the economy is not vulnerable to the collapse of one export, and it's an argument for protection to medium and small businesses which might be productive in the future but would collapse in the short term. It's an argument for agricultural protection, a safety net for poor farmers and other citizens alike, who cannot just say "oh well, we'll go hungry for the next five years".

look, you can regulate every single price, and indeed, in the short run you can achieve stability if price is frozen on somewhat realistic level*

when you move further than short run**, side effects kick in more and more (either black market and lines, either corruption, but always damage to economy)

and it's true with fixed currency, rent controls, food prices, oil prices, etc etc

there is nothing new in what I'm saying (it was proven in practice again and again), if you have evidence of different, where is it?

*believing in government ability to pick that realistic level is sooo naive
**lenght of short run is different for different types of situations
 
Back
Top Bottom