Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

[leif erikson]

The Worker and Barb Camp have no defenses, so all you do is move onto the tile and the Worker becomes yours and you get the Gold for taking the Barb Camp, along with any influence gained for destroying a Barb Camp for a City-State.
edit - if we do not take the Barb Camp, they may spawn another unit to protect it IBT.

Also noticed that Hanoi is Militaristic, which means they will spawn combat units for us if we are their allies.

edit2 - If a Barb Camp has stacked units, it has to be a Worker. Combat units cannot stack.

 

[mad-bax]

At max production without starvation, the capital can produce 11 hpt giving a settler in 7 turns.
At max gold generation, the capital can produce +8 gpt. If we don't buy anything else, it would take 18 turns to get from 361 to 500,

Sure, got it. I was thinking more of working the second pearls and trading it - which still might not be as quick and I don't know how much gold we could get - and anyway we really must buy the archer and get the second city built.

We haven't agreed a site.
Currently, Leif wants to go south to the floodplains - which may be right, but I still can't see why the area with cows and wheat and horses is worse.

 

[leif erikson]

When we found the new city, we will get 4 unhappiness iirc. +1 happiness will not be enough, so we will need the Pearls.

I really do not have a major objection to going north except that we do not know if there are any happy resources there. In addition, Venice culture may cover some of the tiles we would like to work along that river if we do not get there soon.

Hate to say this, but will need another Worker as well.
Be nice to steal one from a Barb Camp that is closer to our cities.

 

[a space oddity]

We haven't agreed a site.

If I find some time this afternoon I could make us a dotmap, but who knows someone will beat me to it...

 

[AlanH]

OK, thanks. I didn't see that the barb defence in the camp had gone IBT. I've captured the worker and returned him to Hanoi. We are now Friends with Hanoi. They are militaristic and will give us an occasional fighting unit. We also gained 25 gold from the camp. The return journey to escort the worker back home seemed excessive, given the need for more exploration and so few units currently.

I've bought an archer, and the one being built will be ready in 4 turns (working cattle, stone, whale, pearl, fish, hill)

 

[a space oddity]

Sounds good! I will be able to get to the save soon.

edit:
I have attached a "dotmap", which in actual fact is a number-map.

Number 1 and 2 are spots the game indicates as being good places to settle. If we will take on Greece is it better to have our cities close or further apart? I like 1 a bit better than 2, since I feel we need to grab as much terrain as we can.

Number 3, 4 and 5 are on the floodplains, but I had a hard time finding a spot I really like.
3 will grab the Banana's and Marble immediately, but is not on the river. 4 and 5 are on the river but will also contain many Desert tiles.

 

[AlanH]

Re discussion on the settling location. I think we have to go for the flood plains and marble, though the AI is suggesting the cattle/horses. West of the marble would work, but further east would get us in range of deer and sheep and wine. Should we try to build ON the river, or is one tile north of the river OK, eg one tile east of the marble?

Here's a dot map of these options. The walking distances from the current settler position just outside the capital, are 2 turns to the western locations, and 4 turns to the eastern one.

X-Post with Space. The AI suggests your 1 and 2, circled on my screenie. Your 4 and 5 are my green and blue. Your 3 is not shown on my map. I quite like my pink spot, but it is a bit further away from the capital, and it's not on the river. What is the impact of being off the river?

 

[a space oddity]

The pink misses the wheat, as does the number 3 spot on my map, that is why in my mind there is no clear winner.

 

[AlanH]

Anyone know - is it any benefit to be ON the river?

 

[a space oddity]

Anyone know - is it any benefit to be ON the river?

From the all-knowing internetz:

The only reason you would want your city to be next to a river are then available buildings, which are: water mill, garden and hydro plant. Water mill (+2 food) is a very low priority building, especially with maritime city states and taking you would still have an option of granary. Garden (+25% Great people) is useless unless you specialize that city specifically for great people generation. Hydro plant (+25% production) is not that necessary, as you would still have options of other type power plants.

So basically when settling try to get access to river tiles, but not necessarily settle right next to a river if otherwise you could get access to some resources or other valuable tiles.

edit: It seems that you even lose the +1 gold on the tile if you build the city on it. Can anyone confirm?

 

[AlanH]

:thx: So that's one thing we can ignore.

I assume there is no health issue with flood plains as in Civ3?

 

[a space oddity]

No, there is no 'health' featuring in this game apparently.

 

[AlanH]

Another take on the river issue:

Very importantly; it start with culture coverage on both sides of the river. Without this, it is more costly (and much less likely randomly) to acquire the tiles on the other side.
If you build away from the river, you risk that river becoming the border, and not getting the nice tiles on the other side.

All of the riverside hills are south of the river!

The marble is only going to give us happy faces when we get Masonry. So it may not be critical to get it in our borders immediately, we could settle nearer the wheat. I think favour your #5, my blue dot?

 

[a space oddity]

I think favour your #5, my blue dot?

It would seem so. Can the hills to the north be irrigated too, being next to the floodplains?

 

[Optional]

lurker's comment: Beware that clearing a barb camp for a CS is a separate thing from barb kills on their border. CS's will always be appreciative of you killing barbs for them, but unless they specifically come with the quest to clear this or that barb camp it doesn't give you influence if you do that.
This is a reason why players sometimes leave a barb camp near a CS alone until the CS asks for it to be cleared.

Maybe you were a little bit lucky it was Hanoi's worker. When I looked at the last save I thought it might have belonged to the undiscovered CS just north of the worker (you can just see their borders):

Spoiler :

You're unlucky with so many CS's being hostile.

I'm not sure if all of you are aware of the characters of the civs you have around you, but this is a rather aggressive bunch! For Alexander it's normal to be openly aggressive, Catherine and Napoleon are usually acting nice, but can turn against you in a whim. They're also all normally fast expanders, especially Napoleon - it's strange to see him here going Honour instead of his favourite Liberty route, and not have a few towns up already. Both Alexander and Catherine have one Social Policy in Tradition and one in Liberty. They'll soon get their free settler as well, and then you can count on war happening - the turning point is often when civs start to settle close to each other.
Especially if you want to settle a town in the direction of an AI, then take care! A couple of units then are a must, hill settlement an extra security, a bit of money on the bank to rush-buy a unit is also something to value.
What I would personally have at the bottom of my wish-list is a work boat for an ordinary fish... for a lux, yes, but not just for a fish.

 

[AlanH]

Continuing from the first part of my turn set report in post #132:


Turn 36 2560 BC
We adopt Collective Rule, and a Settler appears outside the capital.
Fortify southern Jag to heal.

Actions during discussion:

Woke jag up and captured worker from undefended barb camp. We get 25 gold from the camp.
Returned worker to Hanoi, who are now our Friends. As a Militaristic city state they will send us military units.
Bought an archer for 200 gold. We now have 186 gold.
Moved settler into city, with his new escort archer, and out of sight of the wandering Greek archer that could fancy his chances of killing a defenceless settler.

Locked whale, pearl fishery, hill being mined, stone, cattle and fish. 4f/8h/9g. Archer in 4 turns, 16 turns to next citizen. We have 1 happy face. Writing in 3 turns.

IBT: Cathy declares war on Alex. Alex archer disappears.

Turn 37 2520 BC
Southern jag is on grass with no defensive bonus and 6/10 HP. He can see a city state border and a hill. Moves towards the hill, meets Monaco. They are cultured, friendly, and we are their first visitor so we get 30 gold. Move jag onto hill. Monaco has sugar and sheep, and there are cattle SW.
Archer and settler move SW, SW.
Mine completed. We now make 4f/9h/9g. Archer in 3 turns. Switched from stone to hill to get 2f/10h/9g and archer in 2 turns.
Border pop in 2 turns - we'll get a grassy river forest.
Check the competition:
Our score is 64.
Cathy score 63, and is Friendly. Has silver, but won't trade.
Alex score 117, has nothing to Trade, and is Neutral.
Nappy score 78, has 4 horses and would trade them for 180 gold.

IBT: Nothing.

Turn 38 2480 BC
Worker is ready for next job. Moves to cattle.
Archer and settler move 2E towards next city site. French archer spotted E/SE.
Stick with the current citizen arrangement to get Archer next turn.

IBT:
French archer disappears.
Writing completed.
Archer completes
Border pops. We get a river forest 1f/1h/1g. Next pop in 6 turns, gets cattle.

Turn 39 2440 BC
Space Station founded on floodplain. Citizen works floodplain. Starts Granary.
French archer is E/NE of city.
Escort archer E/SE to hill.
New archer NE from MB-R.
We now have 3 unhappy faces. Food production in the two cities is 0.5.
We have 225 gold so we need 15 more gold to buy a workboat to get the second pearls on line.
MB-R citizens work 2 x pearls, 2 x fish, whale, mined hill to get 0.5f/8h/13g.
This gives us net 8 gpt, and we can buy it in two turns.
Start a trireme in MB-R to protect the fisheries. 7 turns.
Start Wheel. 6 turns.

IBT: Cathy would like us to open our borders for her. I decline.

Turn 40 2400 BC
Western jag has healed. Head south to start some fog busting east of Cape Town.
Northern archer from MB-R moves NE towards fog and western jag
Southern archer moves towards barb camp near Venice. There's a captive worker in the camp, at Leif's request, I think! Ranged attack knocks a few HP off the defending brute.
Eastern jag is 8/10. Decide to move him to bust fog. Moves E on hills. Sees stone and cattle.

End of turn set report:
Units: 2 x jag (one at 8/10), 2 x archer, 1 x worker.
2 cities, 3 unhappy faces.
Production: Trireme in 6 turns in MB-R, Granary in 59 turns in Space Station.
Research: Wheel in 5 turns

Intentions:
Fix unhappiness by buying a workboat next turn for the second pearls.
Complete trireme to protect fisheries.
Continue exploration with western jag.
Probably bring the eastern jag down south to capture the barb camp and worker near Venice.
Then get another settler out, I guess.

Here are a couple of screenies.

At Home ...



And Away ...



And the Save:

 

[a space oddity]

Tanks for making the map less painful to look at, Alan! Love the city name BTW.

Roster:
a space oddity
mad-bax
TedJackson
AlanH
leif erikson <-- UP
ainwood

 

[AlanH]

Ah, I see we have a couple of vets up next, to try to clean up the mess

 

[leif erikson]

Ah, I see we have a couple of vets up next, to try to clean up the mess

Think our first priority is to get another Settler out, so propose changing the build in M-BR to Settler. Proposed location is on the river, one or two tiles NE of the Horses, unless recon shows us something of more merit.
After Settler, either Work Boat or Library.

Space Station can continue as Granary.

We can sign Open Borders with all our "friends" and think we should do so. Eastern Jag can recon France on the return trip while northern Jag can get a look at Russia.

Plan to purchase Work Boat for Pearls, hate to get too low on cash because that is usually when someone declares.

Planning to pick up a Worker at the southern Barb Camp.

Research => complete Wheel and on to Math, unless we should detour to Masonry to be able to Quarry the Marble.

 

[a space oddity]

We can sign Open Borders with all our "friends" and think we should do so.

What's the chance of them breaking such a deal to attack us? Or are we relatively save for the next 20 turns if we sign such a deal?

[Monty Python mode on]And now for something completely different:[Monty Python mode off]

I will be leaving for a short break tomorrow. I'll be back the June 15th.
I will have limited internet access until then, but I will try to drop in occasonally.
@Ted, would you be willing to do the admin bit during that time?

edit: Oh, if my turnset rolls on during my absence, feel free to skip me and I'll play a set when I'm back.