Space Colonization modmod

[pepper2000]

Thanks for linking that. Very exciting news and I hope to see the vision come to fruition. A few thoughts:

- Refueling in orbit is clearly needed to rapidly accelerate the journey. I think Musk is right in that, for a journey that will only be 3-5 months, the radiation and weightlessness problems are manageable.
- No discussion of what happens when the colonists arrive on Mars. Maybe that's not SpaceX's department, but having a solid colonization plan is obviously a prerequisite for sending people to Mars.
- One of the questioners asked about interstellar travel and Musk posed antimatter as his favored solution. Maybe that's the best from an abstract engineering standpoint. For design of this mod, I chose to base interstellar travel on fission or fusion powered generation ship (e.g. Project Icarus). It's a good design for the first interstellar mission because it appears to be the closest possible design to technical feasibility today.
- I like the idea of an Earth-Mars system as a forcing function for space technology. I wonder how the concept could be implemented in C2C.

One thing that sticks out in my mind is the number of ships needed to colonize Mars. In designing this mod, I imagine a single ship or a small fleet of ships bringing a few hundred colonists to build the first Martian city. Musk talks about a city of a million people as being the basis for a self-sustaining civilization, which would require thousands of ships. To build that kind of fleet would, I would think, require refueling depots on the Moon or on captured asteroids in Earth orbit, and maybe some heavy duty orbital manufacturing as well. In fact, I have been wondering if I should require that Martian or other interplanetary settlers launch from cislunar colonies, though so far I haven't made that change. Musk evidently doesn't think so, since he said he would at least start by launching and refueling directly from Earth.

 

[Faustmouse]

I've read earlier that SpaceX' plans require several freight flights before they wanted to send the first colonists. And from there on, they estimated 10 fright flights per colonist flights. No idea if that is still up to date though.
The only thing mentioned in this conference is the establishment of a fuel factory on mars, which actually was the main reason for linking this here.

Having a fuel depot on the moon is (at least for SpaceX) pretty useless. Their fuel is based on Methane and the moon is very unsuitable for producing it, as it requires Carbon.

1.000.000 is Musk's ultimate goal, as he figures that in a population of 1m people there are enough doctors, bakers etc to serve the colony.
But you have to start somewhere. So having one ship settling the first colony on mars makes sense. The growth is the problem. In the TH era, where each turn is only a few months, growing of newly found cities can only be explained by migration.
So I tried to limit growth on the moon a lot. At some point I just ignored realism and based it on a game point of view.
I can think of two ways right now:

- An immigrant unit or interplanetary migration
- A world project that simulates a working earth-mars system

The project could then give food to your martion colonies, and we assume that people migrating from earth to mars "in the background".

 

[Noriad2]

Saw the video. It seems he wants the Mars colony to be solar powered. That is probably highly inefficient. Solar doesn't give all that much energy (especially on Mars which is much further away from the sun) and requires lots of batteries for nighttime. Lots of energy is needed just for heating.

A viable Mars colony would require nuclear energy. Uranium/Plutonium fuel requires tons of equipment to produce. Thorium (LFTR) may be an interesting alternative. In the 1960s a thorium reactor the size of half a fridge delivered 2 megawatts of thermal energy for a year in Oak Ridge Lab, USA. And then the USA government shut down all development of Thorium energy in favor of plutonium breeder plants. The plutonium breeder plants were ultimately scrapped because they were considered too dangerous for various reasons.

About thorium energy:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/thorium-energy-solution/

follow-up:Why thorium nuclear power makes space colonization much easier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BybPPIMuQQ

Also check out the movie "The Martian" (2015)
trailer on http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3659388/

 

[pepper2000]

I hadn't really thought about nuclear fission on Mars. The uranium and thorium resources are there, so it should be possible. I set it up so that solar power is the main energy source at first, which is modular and should work fine for a colony of a few thousand or tens of thousands of people. Compared to Earth, Mars gets about half the solar radiation per unit area, but the thin atmosphere would be an advantage for solar power on Mars. At Unification Physics, I allow for deuterium-powered fusion. Maybe fission would be a good intermediate option. However, one major drawback for fission on Mars is that liquid water would not be a good option for coolant (would have to be mined and produced from ice, greatly increasing cost).

As far as Earth goes, there are many possibilities for next generation nuclear power. I am a bit less bullish on thorium. One of the major selling points for thorium, and a major reason that India has invested so much, is fear of uranium shortage and for India in particular the abundance of indigenous thorium resources. But the uranium fuel cycle is a small fraction of the cost of nuclear power, and there should be more than enough uranium to power the world if sufficient investments are made in exploration, especially if fuel recycling can be mastered. I lumped all that into a single "Generation IV Nuclear Plant" rather than worry too much about the technical details.

Musk also mentioned geothermal (areothermal, if we really want to split hairs) as an option. I don't know how promising that is, since the thermal flux in the Martian core is much less than on Earth. The thin atmosphere and wider temperature swings would be good news for building a geothermal pump, though, which would go a long way to solving the heating needs.

 

[Faustmouse]

You don't need water in a LFTR (Liquid fluoride thorium reactor) at all. I don't know how good the cold reservoir is in the thin atmosphere though. If you would use water as a cold reservoir, you can use ice probably even better; also, it will melt pretty quickly.

The difference between Thorium and Uranium are not just different types of fuels, but also different technologies can be utilized. From what I got, Thorium would need next to no processing after being mined, while Uranium needs to be enriched (which is costly and wasteful). Maintenance is another thing. In the LFTR model, you can pump new fuel in consistently, while you have to switch uranium fuel rods manually.

I noticed during the first reportage that the speaker is basically against any other form of energy; yet for me the LFTR model sounds really awesome and right now I'm digging deeper into this topic to see if it really is.

 

[Icezera]

Hey Pepper. If I want to play with your modmod, what map do I need to be using?

 

[Sir_UristmcAmon]

I having problems; some of the units, buildings etc, dont work, shows some errors when loading and dont appear in the game at all.

 

[Sir_UristmcAmon]

The errors in order:
File: Earth_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_HIERACOSPHINX_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_JACKALOPE_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_PEGASUS_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_PHOENIX_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_QILIN_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_QUETZALCOATL_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_RAINBOW_SERPENT_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_NOBLEGARDEN
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_COSMONAUT_TRAINING_CENTRE
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_DALI_THEATRE
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LYCEUM
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUXURY_FURNITURE
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_ORGAN_HALL
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_TELESCREEN
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_THE_ATOMIUM
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_AMBASSADOE_HOUSE
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_EMPORUM
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_DEPT_FOREIGN_POLICY
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_NEGOTIATOR_HUT
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_GARDEN_CITY
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_CHILEHAUS
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_HARAPPAN_FAKE_GEMS
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_UNSANCTIONED_CONSPIRATORS_HIDEOUT
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_UNSANCTIONED_LOANSHARK
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_UNSANCTIONED_MOTORCYCLE_CLUB
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_MOTORCYCLE_CLUB
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_PAWN_SHOP
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_GLAZE_MAKER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_TAR_REFINERY
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_HORSE_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_DONKEY_BREEDER
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_HE3_EXTRACTION_FACILTY
File: Space_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_BASE
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_PARCOLOGY
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_MANUFACTURING_PLANT
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_SPACE_PORT
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_ALGAE_FARM
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_WATER_EXTRACTION_FACILTY
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_LAUNCH_SITE
Info class was incorrect: BUILDINGCLASS_LUNAR_SILICON_EXTRACTION_FACILTY
File: P2K_CIV4UnitInfos.xml
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_TAMED_DONKEY_PAIR
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_TAMED_HORSE_PAIR
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_TAMED_WOLF_PAIR
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_TAMED_LIZARD
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_TAMED_SNAKE
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_ALBANIAN_JANISSARY
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_CONSTRUCTION_SHIP
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_SUPPLY_SHIP
Info class was incorrect: BUILDING_LUNAR_MANUFACTURING_PLANT
Info class was incorrect: UNITCLASS_LUNAR_WORKER

 

[pepper2000]

Faustmouse: I am thinking of adding an advanced fission reactor for Mars. I'm a little hesitant because the Mars line is getting pretty full, but it might also be good to have more buildings that give production bonuses in order to facilitate the building of the Galactic Era wonders.

Icezera: On the Maps folder of this forum, you can see a few people have been working on maps. None of the mapscripts yet give the terrains needed for much interplanetary/interstellar play. For now, the best solution is to take some other mapscript, such as Three Planets, and edit it to include all the new terrains.

Sir_UristmcAmon: Sorry you have having trouble. First, are you up to date on the SVN? You will need a recent SVN, rather than one of the numbered main releases, to play. If so, I think someone else had a similar problem a while back. Try moving my modmod from the Modules/My_Mods folder to the Modules folder and see if that works. I hope you can get it to work.

 

[Faustmouse]

Ok the LFTR doesn't need water cooling at all. So it's suitable for a lunar or martian colony.
The other elements required for that "should" be available on mars, too, as the documentary said.

I wanted to check which resources are on mars and then build a comparably small map for around 5 players,
so it actually runs (mostly for testing but everybody is invited to play it) instead of being a cool but unplayable monster

Probably can start working on it in 2 weeks or so...

 

[pepper2000]

All right, LFTR is on the to-do list. The list is very long, so it might not make the cut for V7, but I should get there eventually. While we're at it, I'll put in some geothermal power too. Part of this will be some tweaking with the production formulas. I want to reduce the number of hammers that come from the mainline colony buildings and increase the number elsewhere, to make production boosters more important.

Regarding resource on Mars, so far I haven't used anything on the surface. All resources are produced through buildings. At some point I want to add map bonuses, but no plans yet.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There are two trade bonuses "Lunar Rocks" and "Mars Rocks". I think they are not working right at the moment. The first nation to send a landing or return probe to the Moon/Mars is supposed to get 6 of these on Earth. Each later nation to send a probe only gets 1. They are supposed to boost local research and happiness. Then go obsolete when the colonisation happens.

 

[pepper2000]

I was wondering about those. Right now I have the Martian Mine produce Mars Rocks, simply as a way of marking that a Martian Mine has been built and allowing a mine in one city to supply industry for another city in the trade network. I'll leave it alone for now. But eventually, I think we will want other map resources on Mars.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have no trouble with Lunar/Martin mines providing the bonus. People will complain that there ends up being too many of a resource that everyone has. Hopefully by then we will have figured out a way of obsoleting the bonus without destroying the building queues.

 

[tmv]

Just as a reference, this is the very old thread that contains the (beginning of the) original plan for Space Colonization: http://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-ascent-of-mankind.345273/

 

[pepper2000]

Thanks tmv. It's very useful to see the context where this stuff came from, even though I've taken it in a different direction than originally envisioned. The thread does give me a few ideas on things to put in, maybe in V7 or V8. Here are some of my running reactions.

Spoiler :

- I now see the difference between Folding Space and Space Creasing. I wonder if they should be moved farther away from each other in the tech tree. Folding Space seems to be appropriate for fast travel within the galaxy, and Space Creasing for intergalactic travel.
- Solar Sails still seems out of place. It shouldn't be in the Galactic Era, but the late Modern Era seems too early. Today we have some experimental projects but are not using solar sails on any significant scale.
- I see that Dyson Spheres were originally planned for Attometer Engineering. I made my own Astroengineering tech and used Attometer Engineering for some other exotic civil engineering projects.
- VASIMR Propulsion is another tech that seems out of place. It comes too late in the tree, relative to when VASIMR could come into common use. Also, I don't think it would be suitable for interstellar travel. So I used it for low cost applications in the solar system, such as tourism.
- I saw several ideas for Screens listed. What's that, and how would it work?
- Several interesting ideas for very late game techs. If we ever get an era split going, I would also be interested in a Cosmic Era after the Galactic Era.

 

[tmv]

The following is just an assumption. Anyone who knows better is more than welcome to correct this.

I think they had a second pedia in mind, which is dynamic during the game. This is supposed to describe celestial bodies (mostly). In the beginning, you get fairly generic info about the sun and the moon and nothing else, but as you advance the information gets more accurate and complete, plus new info about (first) the near planets, then the far planets, and so on.

Then there is also the problem with multimaps, which should one day replace part of this. If I read the forums correctly, the backend for multimaps has been complete for some time (it's just an application of viewports, where just a part of a large map is loaded to save memory), but the frontend is still a problem - a screen is needed where you can change the selected map, and you must be able to send units from one map to another (and finally, mapscripts would be needed). The existing viewports already work well together with the military advisor (In the M.A. screen the full map is shown, and you can select a point outside of your current map to get to another part of the map). Perhaps something similar is possible with this screen, so that it is both a pedia and a map selector.​

 

[Thunderbrd]

Multimaps backend is completed but largely untested and I'm sure there are frayed edges still - probably bigtime. The UI and map generation tools still need to be developed out before it can be tested and debugged properly and the problem with that really comes down to the main programmer on the team (me) is terrified of having to work with that coding since he's already struggling greatly with graphic issues and other majorly confusing issues in debugging in an environment where we cannot even see half the program. I so dearly wish to see it complete someday. I admire the coding done on the project.

Surely it will be someday.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The minimap is a big problem still to be worked out if I remember correctly

 

[tmv]

The pedia part of the screen is the same anyway, but unlike the civ.pedia it would have to be dynamic.

Here is another (extremely low priority) idea: A dynamic civ.pedia could also be interesting, where you get the regular text only for the techs you have researched, a few of the current best guesses for researchable techs, and for any tech further down the road you get either nothing or a highly speculative text. Of course, this particular mod is probably a bit too big for this to be feasible.

Edit: I thought the minimap only shows the current viewport. Wouldn't that be better for multimaps as well?