Space Force

Space force would be a good idea--if the feds could come up with a team who could execute on it. It's a government program; they bureaucracy it to death. It's top secret, which means only U.S. citizens can do it, yet at the same time you need the world's top scientists doing it. They need to be willing to relocate to...wherever it is...which means you have to pay them quite a bit, and you have to figure out how to let scientists create stuff within the restrictive parameters of a government program. They can't publish or share their findings, or even talk about it, because it's top secret. What could possibly go wrong?
There won't be a ton of relocation as the scientific and industrial base is already intact. There will be some expansion of that base but mostly on the manufacturing side as the Space Force will buy more hardware.

The US government is also extremely good at letting scientists create stuff within government programs. The entire SBIRs program is a great example. Every government department has to put out contracts for R&D work to be performed by small businesses and individuals. These contracts are administered by very small teams (sometimes even just one person) within the sponsoring department and give a tremendous amount of leeway for scientists, engineers and tinkerers to take a stab at new technologies.

And SBIR/STTR is run entirely outside of the core of the sponsoring departments. So while NASA may run 50 SBIRs contracts a year, it is also working on hundreds of its own purely-internal research and development efforts.
 
If Amazon got that contract, pretty soon we'd be having apartment spaceships orbiting the planet and mail couriers delivering packages in space. But the Federal government...they'd burn $5 billion, accomplish nothing, and tell upper management and the public how wonderful everything is. And who can question it? It's top secret.

You've got the Intels, Apples and Ciscos in the world--you know--the people who made reading this internet post possible--their R&D departments are 2/3rds Asian. Yet somehow, miraculously, only the Federal government is able to recruit all these natural-born, non-dual U.S. citizens as world-class talent for their project. Who are all willing to accept depressed government salaries, willing to have the FBI comb over their bank records and interview their third-grade teachers to get their security clearance, and by pure coincidence already live there; wherever "there" is. The world's top scientists, but they all just happen to live right where the USAF wants them already. Yep. That's my story, that's what the House Committee got told, and I'm sticking to it.
 
If Amazon got that contract, pretty soon we'd be having apartment spaceships orbiting the planet and mail couriers delivering packages in space. But the Federal government...they'd burn $5 billion, accomplish nothing, and tell upper management and the public how wonderful everything is. And who can question it? It's top secret.

You've got the Intels, Apples and Ciscos in the world--you know--the people who made reading this internet post possible--their R&D departments are 2/3rds Asian. Yet somehow, miraculously, only the Federal government is able to recruit all these natural-born, non-dual U.S. citizens as world-class talent for their project. Who are all willing to accept depressed government salaries, willing to have the FBI comb over their bank records and interview their third-grade teachers to get their security clearance, and by pure coincidence already live there; wherever "there" is. The world's top scientists, but they all just happen to live right where the USAF wants them already. Yep. That's my story, that's what the House Committee got told, and I'm sticking to it.

Flip side of this, my sister is brilliant, and her guy is really frickin' brilliant. I ask them all the time what good they might have done for the world if they hadn't spent thirty years apiece figuring out how to hang more firepower on an airframe without dragging it out of the sky. Truth is that the US government has enormous recruiting power and misdirects a huge amount of brainpower into perfecting the destruction of life on this planet.
 
Yeah my contention is not that the Space Force wouldn't have a ton of R&D workers, it's that there won't be a ton of relocation as the government already employs a ton of workers and researchers both directly and indirectly. The thought that they'd suddenly all have to relocate is just weird. These guys already work in huge, developed, secure facilities with massive R&D and productive capacities. The name of the agency above the door might change but they are not going to move the building itself.
 
My point isn't even primarily about the relocation. It's about their ability to execute. It can be a cool and necessary program, but if they can't accomplish anything more than only pretend to do it, you're better off if you don't even start. And when I hear statements about how it's just a given that they will execute, that tells me that's the program they need to slash, because I know it's BS. This is the federal government. There are Burger Kings in DC that execute better than most agencies.
 
The overwhelming majority of the work that a new space force would do is the same work that the air force is already doing.
 
I'm not the one trying to convince anybody. It's all about those top-class scientists, which apparently are "not a problem". You have to verify your materials work at both 7 degrees kelvin and 1000 degrees kelvin, and at both 0 pascals and 102 kPa. Much wider range than a sub-ionosphere craft. And that means very different machines and techniques to simulate & verify it on the earth surface. Maintaining a geosynchronous orbit is a full-time job and takes post-doctorate level expertise. Big difference in RF communications bouncing off the ionosphere vs. the van allens. You're in a realm of specialization where if anybody says, "it's all RF; the same people can do it" I know they don't know what they're talking about. And if they don't, kill the program.
 
I'm not the one trying to convince anybody. It's all about those top-class scientists, which apparently are "not a problem". You have to verify your materials work at both 7 degrees kelvin and 1000 degrees kelvin, and at both 0 pascals and 102 kPa. Much wider range than a sub-ionosphere craft. And that means very different machines and techniques to simulate & verify it on the earth surface. Maintaining a geosynchronous orbit is a full-time job and takes post-doctorate level expertise. Big difference in RF communications bouncing off the ionosphere vs. the van allens. You're in a realm of specialization where if anybody says, "it's all RF; the same people can do it" I know they don't know what they're talking about. And if they don't, kill the program.
This is technobabble.
 
If you say so. I can't stop the U.S. from being stupid. Proven fact. Knock yourself out.

And by the way, you also have to rad-hard all your circuitry. Those are completely different IC circuits in outer space than the rad-hard circuits designed to withstand an EMP in stratospheric temperatures. All the while, your DSP's have to filter out noise on the 250MHz band--not the 125 MHz band, as the USAF uses. That's twice as much performance needed, rad-hardened, and has to work over a much wider temperature range. Putting a USAF commander in charge of that is pure folly. Not unusual for the government to do, but pure folly.

More technobabble.
 
More technobabble.

That has absolutely nothing to do with your strange assertion that the US AF isn't already doing these things you are talking about that would hypothetically be taken on by any newformed space force.

In fact, this "technobabble" is so clearly unrelated to the actual assertion that it seems more like just plain babble.
 
Gonna take a whole lot more than that for me to not think @hobbsyoyo was right on that one. In fact his statement was pretty much absurdly self evident, so this just looks...silly.
I'm not the one trying to convince anybody. It's all about those top-class scientists, which apparently are "not a problem". You have to verify your materials work at both 7 degrees kelvin and 1000 degrees kelvin, and at both 0 pascals and 102 kPa. Much wider range than a sub-ionosphere craft. And that means very different machines and techniques to simulate & verify it on the earth surface. Maintaining a geosynchronous orbit is a full-time job and takes post-doctorate level expertise. Big difference in RF communications bouncing off the ionosphere vs. the van allens. You're in a realm of specialization where if anybody says, "it's all RF; the same people can do it" I know they don't know what they're talking about. And if they don't, kill the program.
This is technobabble.

You know, Donald Trump's "Space Force" brings the immense similarity to the old '80's "Muppet Show" character Captain Hogtrough from "Pigs in Space." They're both highly egotistical and narcissistic, with that fake-looking hair colour, and the porcine qualities, but both are incompetent in the end, and their bravado is actually a cover for true cowardice.
 
You know, Donald Trump's "Space Force" brings the immense similarity to the old '80's "Muppet Show" character Captain Hogtrough from "Pigs in Space." They're both highly egotistical and narcissistic, with that fake-looking hair colour, and the porcine qualities, but both are incompetent in the end, and their bravado is actually a cover for true cowardice.

When exactly did this discussion become about "Donald Trump's space force"? The conversation before you came along saying...well...whatever it is you've been trying to say...was about the basic question "would creating a new service branch serve well to reduce the obstructions to space development that having it under the auspices of the Air Force presents, or would it just create even greater bureaucracy and be a net impediment?" Maybe knowing that will make it easier for you to make some sort of contribution here.
 
If you say so. I can't stop the U.S. from being stupid. Proven fact. Knock yourself out.

And by the way, you also have to rad-hard all your circuitry. Those are completely different IC circuits in outer space than the rad-hard circuits designed to withstand an EMP in stratospheric temperatures. All the while, your DSP's have to filter out noise on the 250MHz band--not the 125 MHz band, as the USAF uses. That's twice as much performance needed, rad-hardened, and has to work over a much wider temperature range. Putting a USAF commander in charge of that is pure folly. Not unusual for the government to do, but pure folly.

More technobabble.
More technobabble. You are mashing together a bunch of concepts incorrectly to lend your argument weight.


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Because: Why not?

You have to verify your materials work at both 7 degrees kelvin and 1000 degrees kelvin,
Standard mil-spec temperature ranges for space applications are usually between -45C to 75C.
and at both 0 pascals and 102 kPa.
And? Are we supposed to be shocked that things in space have to work in vaccum or what?
Much wider range than a sub-ionosphere craft.
This is meaningless gibberish. The ionosphere is a thing. You can be beneath it. Sub-ionosphere craft is meaningless.
And that means very different machines and techniques to simulate & verify it on the earth surface.
This is just like saying things in space have to work in space. It adds nothing to the argument but gives it a patina of sophistication.
Maintaining a geosynchronous orbit is a full-time job and takes post-doctorate level expertise.
All full time jobs are full time jobs. What does this even mean? Most satellites fly themselves most of the time anyhow and in many ways, GEO birds are easier to fly than their LEO counterparts. And you definitely don't have to have a post-doc to 'maintain a geosynchronous orbit', whatever that means.
Big difference in RF communications bouncing off the ionosphere vs. the van allens.
Bouncing shortwave off the ionosphere has as much to do with communicating with satellites as two kids talking to each other with coffee cans and string. No one uses the van allen belts as a communications medium. The idea itself is pretty funny though.
You're in a realm of specialization where if anybody says, "it's all RF; the same people can do it" I know they don't know what they're talking about. And if they don't, kill the program.
Weird flex but ok?
And by the way, you also have to rad-hard all your circuitry.
Not true. It's far more common to make the architecture rad tolerant rather than rad hard. Also, CubeSats are showing how you can do meaningful science and missions without either.
Those are completely different IC circuits in outer space than the rad-hard circuits designed to withstand an EMP in stratospheric temperatures.
This is also false. The same chips get passed around for many different applications. There are very few niches that require completely unique architectures.
All the while, your DSP's have to filter out noise on the 250MHz band--not the 125 MHz band, as the USAF uses.
No and no? This doesn't make enough sense to me to correct, I'm sorry.
That's twice as much performance needed, rad-hardened, and has to work over a much wider temperature range.
'Twice as much performance' is rarely the driving criteria in space electronics. I mean what performance are you even specifying? I kind of assume you mean processing speed, which is definitely not a driver of satellite flight computer design. We're well into 'everything is fast enough' when it comes to most satellite use cases and processing speed comes with lots of draw backs including higher temperature excursion and radiation susceptibility, less reliability, increased cost and less compatibility with common hardware and software.
 
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Standard mil-spec temperature ranges for space applications are usually between -45C to 75C.

That's absurd. The ambient temperature of outer space is 7 degrees kelvin (common myth about space being absolute zero. Certain quantum mechanics take over down there; the molecules don't just stop themselves). TYPICAL earth orbital temperatures range between -175 and 400 degrees kelvin. And you're launching $10 billion space junk in the air and parking it there. You don't get to takeoff/land/service/repeat, like your aircraft do. You can't do typical--you have to do worst-case. Materials have to work between 7 and 1000 kelvin. Come on, 75C doesn't even boil water, for crying out loud. How much do you want to bet the CPU on your computer at home was tested at 125C? And you mean to tell me your "superior", "military grade" spaceships weren't?

And? Are we supposed to be shocked that things in space have to work in vaccum or what?

No. You're supposed to NOT be shocked. This isn't rocket science. Well okay, technically it is.

This is meaningless gibberish. The ionosphere is a thing. You can be beneath it. Sub-ionosphere craft is meaningless.

Meaningless to YOU, because evidently YOU do not even understand how basic ham radio works. Even by your own admission, you don't even know what geosynchronous orbit is...and then claim you "know" it doesn't take PhD's to make it happen.

As the sharks on the Shark Tank say, "For that reason, I'm out." i hope you aren't on the program.
 
Those are completely different IC circuits in outer space than the rad-hard circuits designed to withstand an EMP in stratospheric temperatures. All the while, your DSP's have to filter out noise on the 250MHz band--not the 125 MHz band, as the USAF uses. That's twice as much performance needed, rad-hardened, and has to work over a much wider temperature range. Putting a USAF commander in charge of that is pure folly.

If someone says "IC circuits", you know they can't be trusted.
 
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Even by your own admission, you don't even know what geosynchronous orbit is...
This is addressed at hobbsyoyo, I think? I mean, in this sudden trainwreck of a thread?
 
This is addressed at hobbsyoyo, I think? I mean, in this sudden trainwreck of a thread?

I think the thread is fine. A train can keep rumbling right on down the tracks even if one passenger suddenly lights themselves on fire and after a brief bout of gyrating and screaming throws themselves out the window.
 
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