Spanish Judge issues arrest warrant for US soldiers in Iraq

[Stapel]

Ok good. So Spain should wait for approval by US as well just like America did with NL. If the Dutch court hadn't approved it, would America have like arrested the man anyways? I don't think so. America is not like that. Only Spain is

Don't be ridiculous. Spain has not arrested this guy, right?
And yes, the man would have been arrested if he would have tried to enter the US.
The big difference here is that the US-justice department does not even answer the warrant, which is only about a whitness interview, not about an arrest.

Why the hell would they simply not grant it? FOR THE MATTER OF JUSTICE!
Something to hide?

 

[wit>trope]

Don't be ridiculous. Spain has not arrested this guy, right?
And yes, the man would have been arrested if he would have tried to enter the US.

No he would have just been deported back to NL (or they would have tried to get NL's permission to try him).

In any event the question is moot because the crimes he did were not strictly NL crimes. If you telephone in a hit on NL soil on an American (for example), that means it is an American crime as well as an NL crime ... so selling drugs from NL to Americans makes it an American crime, not just NL crime. The crime takes place in two places if you will.

 

[Jorge]

In any case, cierdan, the fact is that three soldiers killed a journalist, right? I hope we agree here.

Now the question is, was it justified? Was it a crime?

How do we answer these questions? We can let people on an internet forum to decide, or we can make a fair trial, with a judge and a jury that hear all the story and make justice.

The only thing that Couso´s family is asking is that.

 

[wit>trope]

In any case, cierdan, the fact is that three soldiers killed a journalist, right? I hope we agree here.

Now the question is, was it justified? Was it a crime?

Ok good.

How do we answer these questions? We can let people on an internet forum to decide, or we can make a fair trial, with a judge and a jury that hear all the story and make justice.

We answer them with an investigation and a trial if necessary by the United States military. Soldiers are under a separate justice system for the military. Instead of whatever "judicial cooperation" they are seeking they should just have the Spanish govt cooperate with the American govt in running the investigation just like with the Italian-American investigation where the Italian agent died while rescuing an Italian journalist.

Be flexible.

 

[Stapel]

No he would have just been deported back to NL (or they would have tried to get NL's permission to try him).

In any event the question is moot because the crimes he did were not strictly NL crimes. If you telephone in a hit on NL soil on an American (for example), that means it is an American crime as well as an NL crime ... so selling drugs from NL to Americans makes it an American crime, not just NL crime. The crime takes place in two places if you will.

May I conclude form this post you are familiar with this case (it indeed was a Dutchmen seeling XTC to the US).
It was a rather big item here, as there was no jurisprudence on this matter. There also was some media pressure on the court not to approve the warrant of course, this didn't influence the judge).

It all ended with this dude pleeding guilty, simply to avoid worse and get a relatively short-term US-government-paid vacation.

Dutch media speculated he would not have a fair chance at trial, as he would be abused as an example and found guilty by the jury anyway.

 

[Kyriakos]

You should realise that Cierdan is currently in a mode where he cannot acept anything against his country. Perhaps he can easily leave that mode too, and return to other miserable situations, and perhaps he is more stabilised it it. Either way while still in this mode he will never admitt anything negative for the Usa, because it would be subconsciously understood (and oh so very consciously felt) as a threat to himself. Trying to talk reasonably with Cierdan currently is impossible.
Any american who is not troubled in this way would easily understand that no country should be above international law. Double standards do not help anyone, and add insult to the injury already felt by the dead man's family.

ps: i do not hope that he will get these points at all, but it doesnt matter. I would like to hope that he is not more than 12 years old though.

Moderator Action: Focus on the topic, not specific posters

 

[Stapel]

We answer them with an investigation and a trial if necessary by the United States military. Soldiers are under a separate justice system for the military. Instead of whatever "judicial cooperation" they are seeking they should just have the Spanish govt cooperate with the American govt in running the investigation just like with the Italian-American investigation where the Italian agent died while rescuing an Italian journalist.

Be flexible.

I hope you can understand the journalist's family can't accept the employers of the 'suspects' as neutral.


Last year, a Dutch soldier was prosecuted (in NL) for shooting an Iraqi civilian (in Iraq) by a regular criminal court, not by a military court.
He was found not guilty, btw.

 

[Jorge]

Could anyone tell me of a case where America did this to Spain? like a case where America issued warrants for the arrest of Spanish soldiers? or where America did this to any other country? Why can't Spain cooperate with America just like Italy did?

I love wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition

Extradition and abduction
Issues of international law relating to extradition have proven controversial in cases where a state has abducted and removed an individual from the territory of another state without previously requesting permission, or following normal extradition procedures. Such abductions are usually in violation of the domestic law of the country in which they occur, as infringements of laws forbidding kidnapping. Many also regard abduction as violation of international law — in particular of a prohibition on arbitrary detention. Therefore, only a handful of countries resort to kidnapping.

Notable or controversial cases involving abduction of foreign citizens:

Adolf Eichmann from Argentina by Israel in 1960
Ronnie Biggs from Brazil by independent bounty hunters in 1981
Mordechai Vanunu from Italy by Israel in 1986
Alvarez-Machain from Mexico by the United States Drug Enforcement Administration
Mir Aimal Kasi from Pakistan by the CIA in 1997
Martin Mubanga from Zambia to Guantanamo Bay by the United States in 2002
Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr from Italy to Egypt by the CIA in 2005

 

[wit>trope]

Some of those cases were done with consent from the relevant nations. I know the last case for example IIRC had unofficial Italian consent from the Italian counterpart to the CIA with the agreement to never reveal it publically -- this is what was reported and I posted this before IIRC.

I don't know about the other three cases. But my impression is that the first one would be correct. So good point.

 

[carlosMM]

Some of those cases were done with consent from the relevant nations. I know the last case for example IIRC had unofficial Italian consent from the Italian counterpart to the CIA with the agreement to never reveal it publically -- this is what was reported and I posted this before IIRC.

Oh, do you blab out secret information here (lemme call the CIA ASAP) or do you make up a conspiracy theory?

 

[carlosMM]

When it's the other way around, other nations try to impose their legal values on us.

tsk tsk, that's not THEIR values, but basic human rights. it is not the world's fault that the US uses cruel and ununsual punishment!

 

[Drakan]

The journalist killed by the american tank were loging at the Hotel Palestina, where almost ALL the international journalists/press where. A very well-known fact to US military and hardly an enemy position by any standards. Not a sibgle shot was fired from this hotel.

The tank crew saw two guys with binoculars from the hotel watching tham, probably thought they might be snipers.

They radioed their command post. Ten minutes went by waiting orders. They were radioed back and their commander issued them orders to fire at will at the suspected target.

So they did following strict orders and killed our journalist (cameraman). But the journalist could have been Canadian, or British or French, they were all loged there.

The fault is not the tanks' crew, it's their commanding officer-in- charge who took ten minutes to reply to their query and then -surprisingly- ordered to fire despite not being shot at from that position at any time.

The officer ought to be prosecuted not the soldiers, they only followed orders.

The US has showed 0% helping us to solve the case, 0%.

 

[Drakan]

Screw Spain. They want these men, they can come get them.

That attitude is what causes the US to have so few allies in the international stage. The US needs allies despite all its massive firepower it's a basic rule of warfare and politics. Politicians and Governments who forget it will pay sooner or later for it, and don't take my words as amenace because they aren't, I'm beeing factual.

Next time round we have Al Quaeda suspects of blowing-up innocent american civilians, you can be sure we won't allow you to touch them even with a bargepole and do everything possible to thwart their extradition.

Forget cooperation with this attitude.

And just for the record, US military overfly our air space with our consent more than 5.000 times a year. And get nothing in exchange. This has been said by Mr Félix Roldán, commander-in-chief of the JEMAD, the spanish head of military.

We get to fly our military over US soil 0 times a year.

Perhaps we ought to cut-back our cooperation with you guys.

I'm sure that If an american civilian had been shot-dead by one of our soldiers you would be one of those all too eager to start a second American-Spanish war.

What goes around comes around.

 

[carlosMM]

They radioed their command post. Ten minutes went by waiting orders. They were radioed back and their commander issued them orders to fire at will at the suspected target.

Let's see, if this went the way they should, the soldiers would be investigated, but the prosecutor would quickly find that fault resisdes at a higher level and shift to investigating the commanding officer.


nah, can't have that, can we?

 

[Drakan]

The prosecutor thinks the way you've described, but the US military have not cooperated and revealed the name and rank of the senior officer-in-charge.

Remember that US military woman jailed for torturing iraqui prisoners ? She was following orders straight from the Pentagon *cough*D. Rumsfeld*cough*. Granted, he's no military, but who ends up in jail, the woman who followed the orders. We know CIA interrogated harshly iraqui prisoners, it ain't no secret. But let's go frame the soldier, the cannon-fodder. Hurrah, enlist at Uncle Sam's !

Same in ths spanish journalist case. The soldiers get framed for an executive decision taken by their senior officers in command.

Justice ?

 

[Speedo]

That attitude is what causes the US to have so few allies in the international stage. The US needs allies despite all its massive firepower it's a basic rule of warfare and politics. Politicians and Governments who forget it will pay sooner or later for it, and don't take my words as amenace because they aren't, I'm beeing factual.

Oh bull, this has nothing to with that and you know it.

Handing over any American serviceman or woman to any foreign power or "international body" is unacceptable. I would expect any nation which places any value in its military to hold the same attitude.

If Spain has a problem with these guys, they are more than welcome to come over here and pursue it.

Next time round we have Al Quaeda suspects of blowing-up innocent american civilians, you can be sure we won't allow you to touch them even with a bargepole and do everything possible to thwart their extradition.

Didn't realize the Spanish had begun to lean towards supporting terrorism, but so be it.

And just for the record, US military overfly our air space with our consent more than 5.000 times a year. And get nothing in exchange. This has been said by Mr Félix Roldán, commander-in-chief of the JEMAD, the spanish head of military.

We get to fly our military over US soil 0 times a year.

Perhaps we ought to cut-back our cooperation with you guys.

Good, more motivation for the government to stop wasting our taxpayer dollars in europe.

I'm sure that If an american civilian had been shot-dead by one of our soldiers you would be one of those all too eager to start a second American-Spanish war.

Some of us realize that Bad Things Happen In War.

 

[carlosMM]

Good, more motivation for the government to stop wasting our taxpayer dollars in europe.

there is ample example in the history of the 20th century what happenes when people like you come inot power. it is called WWI and WWII.



'we are the greatest, **** the others' is not a smart or workable attitude. But, it would be great for Europe if the US actually followed this course. Harming oneself is a great way of helping competitors So go shoot yourself in the foot, you do have the firepower after all

'Ami go home!'

 

[Speedo]

there is ample example in the history of the 20th century what happenes when people like you come inot power. it is called WWI and WWII.



'we are the greatest, **** the others' is not a smart or workable attitude. But, it would be great for Europe if the US actually followed this course. Harming oneself is a great way of helping competitors So go shoot yourself in the foot, you do have the firepower after all

'Ami go home!'

Umkay... have no idea where you got most of that from, but anyway.

What exactly are US troops stationed in Europe accomplishing? The Soviet bear rolled over dead long ago. There is no reason for them to be there. For that matter, the only place that I can really see reason for American troops to remain where they're currently stationed would be South Korea.

Let's face it, Europe's problems are Europe's. I don't really think that you're telling me that Europe needs the US looking over it's shoulder to stay peaceful, so I don't quite know what the point of your post is.

It is true that another WW1 or WW2 could happen but, you know, one would hope that people have learned since then (though I doubt it). If Europe is really going to fall into war again in the future, then America can't stop it by military force.

 

[Esckey]

Okay, by your logic America's problems are Americas problems. We(the rest of the world) have no business getting into your affairs. That means the terrorists are your problem. Osama, your problem, Iran, your problem, North Korea, your problem. They all have a big probelm with America so we should stay out it

 

[Speedo]

Okay, by your logic America's problems are Americas problems. We(the rest of the world) have no business getting into your affairs. That means the terrorists are your problem. Osama, your problem, Iran, your problem, North Korea, your problem. They all have a big probelm with America so we should stay out it

*shrug* Your choice. Judging from Madrid and London, they disagree with your assessment of who exactly their problem is with.