*Spoiler1* Gotm24-Korea - Enter Middle Ages

[dales]

Qitai

I just confirmed it again. I loaded the sav from the turn before I researched Republic. When I researched it, hit the "show me the big picture" and revolted from the domestic advisor screen. Got a 4 turn anarchy. Then when I exited thea dvisors, got asked if I wanted to revolt or was I happy with anarchy. I said I wanted a revolution (don't ya know it's gonna be all right). Now I had a 5 turn anarchy.

So yes, it appears to hit the RNG twice.

 

[dales]

lateralis- Didn't Pink attack you for founding a city so close to them? My experience is that whenever there is overlap of the 9 tile central city radii, the AI will attack.

 

[Qitai]

smackster, dales> Thanks for the confirmation. Now, I will use this in future to avoid the extreme 8 turn anarchy. Unless, of course, if Cracker wants to ban this. But I think he will like it since he didn't like the random nature of the Anarchy in the first place.

 

[Naboo]

Naboo/Gotm24/Spoiler1/Open/V1.29/Mac/

Start looks good and we settle immediately. Let me state up front that I am not into micromanagement, especially in regard to internal tile assignments, and so I don't go through the unit-factory analysis. My ultimate score suffers as a result, that's certain but MM is not my cup of tea. But, if you're like me and play a more seat-of-the pants game, or if you want to consider this a "variant", then also be aware that my first order of business was to tell the governors to "manage happiness" for all cities. After that I never go into cities to reassign tiles. I mean never. That job I delegate to my governors. I am Wang Kong, glorious Leader of the Korean people, and I have other matters to attend to. I do direct workers in the early game, but with exception of establishing roads and very early irrigation they'll be on auto too for the most part. I direct our scientists to continue on to Calligraphy and then to Literature; hoping to build the Great Library. Research set to the most economical 40-turn rate and we set the Luxury Tax at 20%.

Next order of business of course is exploration. With 11 rivals rapid contacts could be essential to survival in the technology race. In gotm21 I started so slowly in this regard my game suffered badly enough that a v1.29 bug was triggered and I was unable to continue. I don't want that to happen this time with our large roster, and so our first 3 builds are warriors for exploration. Then we train a flagged footman for defense and MP duty. After that 1 more warrior for exploration. The results of their wanderings is shown in the following animation.

Soon enough we discover our 3 neighbors and begin trade. We start to suspect our "island-ness". Our research on Calligraphy pays off and we leverage it for fun and profit to gain all other knowledge and a good treasury. In 1990BC we're voted "Most Advanced Civ" by Machiavellianism Monthly magazine.

Our explorers seek to discover the borders of our island or continue across any land bridges. If the latter, we may be in trouble since we're without scouts and our rivals have had more time to explore the farthest areas.

Pyongang is set to a palace prebuild, but its shield output is pathetic at this point. We've built only 1 worker so far and trying to pop settlers asap. Good news is that Pyongang has Iron on its doorstep, and there are horses nearby Wonsan also [dance]

Baekje demand Taoist Mysticism, and I let them have it; not wanting a war at this point.

The last unexplored area is the mountainous south reach; land of the Han. We've found no barbarian huts so far and hold out a slim hope that one may have been missed in the mountains. We don't find any, but eventually a barbarian encampment is found.

We're first to discover Literature and trade it around, again catching up in the tech race. Pyongang just didn't seem to have the shield output to grab the GreatLib, despite a prebuild. Besides, we're going to need units soon and can't afford to lose the city's output. Goguryeo eventually build the Great Library.

Bakeje are close by and we begin trading luxuries to them early. But they are too close and my typically sluggish expansion means Korea must expand by conquest.

Bakeje's fate is sealed when they produce the Great Lighthouse in Ch'onan. With 8 more Civs to find that is the essential ticket - nobody has made contacts without it, but they might with it. Pusan was settled right next door to get the horses. Our Bushi can overrun Ch'onan before Baekje can react. We declare war, breaking deals with our sneak attack. Not the best start to a Diplomacy game But, our advisor seems well pleased when we capture the Great Lighthouse

Oh boy, this war is going to make trade difficult. But we needed that Wonder and also the territory. We take their iron early, and whittle Baekje to 3 cities and get Shamanism and Republic.

We enter the Middle Ages as an outcast in 190AD. The path to world-acclaimed peacemaker seems difficult if not impossible. Our ability to trade is severely limited and we have far too little territory to become a powerhouse. We need more land, cities, luxuries and resources. More! More! We will need to displace the remaining Baekje cities, and beyond that probably the Goguryeo. We'll need to decide and take action quickly to gain many centuries for our ruthless actions to fade in the memories of the world leaders. However, Wang Kong will not apologize for taking the necessary steps to insure a future for his people! Once that future is reasonably secure we will endeavor to live in harmony with all nations and to promote the common good to the best of our ability

I don't think there's any way we can clear the island before contacts are made although with the Great Lighthouse we may be able to establish exclusive contacts with the other 8 Civs for some time. Our brave boatsmen set sail.

[edit - fixed smilies]

 

[bluebox]

after a long 40-turn-research of republic i was able to buy shamanism which put me in the middle ages at 70bc, about 10 turns after my neighbors.

the starting location with the w/s-factory made initial expansion quite easy though there's not much room on the island. my cities are pretty close to each other.

i settled on the nw location, setting up the "2nd best" settler factory starting production in 2800bc. i didn't see the possibility of completing a warrior with "8 shields" - adding the missing 2 shields with the completion of the 5th citizen, like Qitai explained.
anyway, it was enough for 18 cities including 2 on the barbarian island.

after the founding of new cities has ended, i connected the iron resource and upgraded my warriors as i planned to attack goguryeo, which were the weakest . however, they decided to declare war themselves the very next turn. i persuaded the baekje to join in . this war is going on right now.

some words about the game itself: this game looks like a home-brew "sengoku"-conquest scenario made by cracker/ the gotm staff resp.! the unit animations are cute; just look at how the bushi warrior bows to his beaten enemy after he has won a battle! not playing against the normal civs but against other asian tribes makes up for a truly asian flavour, just like it was promised before in the game anouncement. well done

 

[jack merchant]

I was so eager to begin this scenario that I didn't see the announcement on the inclusion of Asian civs, so I was delighted to run into Baekje, Goguryeo and Han dynasty units, and see their leaderheads and flags. A great surprise .

In game, I went for the regular 4-6 settler factory on the start position figuring I could use the wheat to get another city up to speed quicker. I realized quickly that I wouldn't be able to get more than 6-7 cities through native expansion so after the settlers I set Seoul to build the Pyramids as a GL prebuild (having 2 luxes nearby and being able to trade for Goguryean wines really soon helped keep it happy so the lux tax didn't have to be raised too high). However, with Seoul's really high production capacity and no AI picking up literature I decided to try and get the Pyramids themselves, and indeed built them in 925BC. I then went ahead and built the Great Library too.

I researched everything at max speed in the early stages - first pottery, then writing (which started out as a 40-turn project, but I knew I'd get it faster as my cities grew). After writing (which enabled me to trade for all other 1st and 2nd level techs), literature and then currency. After currency, I went for Republic though the Han beat me to it by a turn.

All my cities got libraries as their first builds after Otomo spears/warriors/workers to help in research. After that, it was military production & warriors for the Bushi upgrade. The Baekje were the target as they had stolen the horses, and thought they put up a good fight, they were eventually driven off the mainland onto the barb island.

How I got into the Middle Ages is already beyond the scope of this thread, but at this point I'm looking good - science is going fairly fast, and Seoul might be a candidate for a 20k too.

 

[Tech Step]

I don't know how you guys do it but I tried to set up the capital as a setytler factory and failed dismally.

By the end of the ancient era I was ahead on techs (due to Great Library) but I only had 4 cities.

I don't think I am going to win this one (How embarrising)

 

[Txurce]

Tech Step, you can win this one with the four cities you have now - not that it would be easy! - so hang in there. Keep in mind that all you need to do is have friendly relations with the surviving civs, and build the UN yourself. Using a prebuild this is pretty easy, as long as you are somewhat close in tech toward the end of the industrial era. I don't know what's going on with your game right now, but you may want to try a modest expansion by allying with someone against the weaker of your immediate neighbors, and making contact with the other civs before your neighbors do. Don't forget that if they haven't made contact yet, they probably won't until some time after the discovery of navigation. That's a lot of tech brokering you could do, not to mention map selling, before eventually trading away the contacts.

 

[Xevious]

PTW 1.27f Open

Seems most people either settled in place or went NW. I decided to go W (after sending worker south to check out the view. I then went to irrigate/road the wool getting the lux connected just in time to stave off unhappiness.

As many did, I went 100% for Terra Cotta, then 40 turn writing, which I missed badly (7 turns) and ended up buying.

I made 2 warriors, granary, settler (2850BC), warrior, and then settlers every 4 turns (from size 3, so I missed the warrior/settler factory).

I traded techs every chance I got, which caused me to end up having to buy some techs (Iron, Wheel from Han).

By the QSC cutoff I had:

15 cities
38 citizens
1 settler
10 workers
2 slaves
5 warriors (all reg)
1 spear (vet)
7 Bushi (2 vets)

1 granary
2 barracks
3 librarys

Missing Construction, Currency, Shamanism, (Monarchy), and 11 turns from Republic.

Have 2 luxes, working toward getting wines eventually, and I'm leading in score.


I got my first demand from Han in 950BC, but he backs down when I deny him.

I got Republic in 750BC, but don['t revolt until 730BC to let my first boat finish, pulling a 5 turn anarchy. I use Republic to get Construction from Han and Currency from Gorgy.

Baekje built pyramids in 750BC which put a HUGE target on their forehead.

I was one turn from Shamanism (my last needed tech) when everyone else had it, so I bought it for WM and 20g, entering Middle Ages in 590BC. Here's my minimap at that point:

 

[Merle Corey]

edit
PTW 1.27 Open class game
/edit

Game started well, if slowly for me. Once again, I lag behind the other civs in founding the initial cities, but not too badly.

The highlight of this era is the war with the Han & Goguryeo vs myself.

230bc - The Han demand some gold from me. They have no cities adjoining mine, and an army about the same size as mine. I refuse, and they dow me.

170bc - I still haven't seen any Han troops, but they convince the Goguryeo to ally with them against me.

90bc - I take my first city from the Goguryeo.

270ad - After killing many Han swordsmen, they finally settle for peace, giving me a tech and some gold.

390ad - Still at war with the Goguryeo. The other three civs already have entered the Middle ages and have Monotheism and Feudal Warlords, and & I'm researching the last tech - Shamanism - that I need to enter the Middle Ages. The Goguryeo are willing to give me Shamanism for peace, but I still have one remaining war objective, and that is taking the Goguryeo city that controls the Iron resource to the south. Since my Horsmen will soon be facing Pikemen I try a final gamble to try to secure this city by throwing an offensive force of my remaining Horsemen (four veterans), five Japanese Cats, two veteran Otomo Spears and one elite Otomo Spear at this city. In 380ad the battle group had arrived at the gates of the city. The four Horsemen had attacked the city that same turn with their remaining move points, killing an unfortified Pike, a fortified Otomo Spear and wounding another Otomo Spear. I lost two of the Horsemen, one was promoted to elite and was undamaged. The remaining Horseman was seriously wounded, with only one hit point remaining. At the beginning of 390ad I knew I had to accept peace this turn even if I failed to take the city. The Goguryeo had moved a number of swordsmen towards the city and my battle group, but they were not able to reinforce the city or attack the group in 380ad. Fortunately the city didn't have a barracks either, so the wounded Otomo spear defending the city wasn't able to fully recover. I begin the attack by bombarding with the Cats. All five of them fail to hit anything. Argh!!! I attack with the elite Horseman, defeating the wounded Spear. Now the city is defended by a three point warrior. I attack with the one point Horseman, hoping that it will knock at least one hit point off the enemy warrior. No such luck, the Horseman dies. I attack with the elite Otomo Spear. It dies, knocking off one of the warriors' three hit points. The warrior is promoted, giving it three out of four hit points. I attack with one of the vet Spears. It also dies, knocking off another hit point. Again the warrior is promoted, and it now has three out of five hit points. At this point I figure that I'll be lucky to still get them to give me a tech for peace and that I'm certainly NOT going to get this city, but I've come this far, so I go ahead and attack with my remaining vet Spear. And the vet Spear actually wins!!!! And takes the city!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG! I feel like a Cubs fan!!!!! That means I get the Iron after all! I have eight turns left to research Shamanism and move into the Middle ages. I check with the Han and the Baekje and find that they're willing to sell it to me now for around 100 gold. I buy it from the Han, even though it's a few gold pieces more, because I want a gold per turn deal w/ them to try assure me a period of badly needed peace to build up my pathetic little civ. This kicks me into the Middle ages and I now go to the Goguryeo to negotiate the peace. They give me Monarchy, Feudal Warlords, gold and their map. I'm even happier when I realize that being scientific gave me Engineering as the bonus tech and no one else has it yet!! The Han are studying it themselves and will only offer me 18gpt. The Baekje on the other hand offer me Monotheism, Republic and some gold! Score!!! I take it and start a revolution to change governments immediately! So I start this turn (390ad) with seven cities still in the Ancient age, knowing only Despotism, and locked in an ugly war of attrition, lacking in iron and behind all the other known civs in tech. I finish the turn with eight cities, a revolution in progress to form a Republic, at peace, with a source of Iron and three techs into the Middle ages!

So, while things were looking pretty ugly at the start of 390ad, they ended well. Hopefully I can pull ahead of the rest during the Middle ages. I need to use the peace to upgrade my army, build more cities (I've got three good sites picked out to start with) and start a navy so that I can go do some training with the natives on the little island to the west.

~fin

PS Cubs Win!!!!!

 

[CdB]

F10 tells me lot of strange names (cracker ) so I will go to Pottery at max speed and then to Litterature - Republic.

First Strategy : Settler Factory & Expend
I did not do much calculation and jumped into the game … so I failed the settler factory. I will try to redo it with the much detailed help from Qitai ...
I settle on the spot and searched Terracotta at max speed (due in 14 turns). I build 4 Warriors going (S-N-E-W) and pre-built barracks for Granary. My first settler is produced in 2750 BC and will found P'yongyang (RCP 4) by the sea.
I was producing too many shields and not enough food. So I was more on a combo 7 turns Warrior-Warrior-Settler. At the end I could do Sword – Settler combo. To put it short, I failed at the Settler factory.
My 4 warriors went on discovering the home continent (1st goes S, 2nd goes N, 3rd goes E). I was afraid to be stuck on a relatively small island at the beginning.
Gorguryeo encountered in 3600 BC have Burial & Bronze like Aztecs / Celts.
Baekje encountered in 3350 BC have Burial to Offer & lack Bronze so they must have Alphabet (i.e. like India / Spain). Spotted pink border of B...They are going to meet Gorguryeo (G) but are low on GP . So I am going to trade before they meet. B… offers a better price so give Bronze for Burial & 8 GP. Trade Alphabet to G… for Warrior Code & 10 GP
Han encountered in 2230 BC (I suspect they are the Chinese so i now this civs traits). I got Masonry & Iron vs Alphabet & Burial & 6GPT & 155 GP
At 1000 BC, one turn short of literature, I had 8 towns + 1 town conquered + 1 settler + 5 Workers, so I am leading in techs with a little army of 13 Warriors and 5 Swords. Ch’on ju (Baekje Capital), just captured has the Pyramids. That will helped me for the rest of the game.

I love to see the barbs just leaving in hurry hot volcanoes.

Early Wars (vs Baekje 1250 BC-710 BC)
As I was only slowly expending, I had to go to my favorite strategy : early wars with limited troops. This is in order to get decent towns with luxs. I was preparing this but was not ready at 1250 BC when I noticed that G… was at war with B… I jumped on the occasion to gain territory because opponents looked weak. I upgraded some limited Sword due to lack of Cash. Move Warrior up to Attack Yosu (B…). Deal with G… for MM & 6 GP to attack B… I had only 4 Swords & 15 Warriors & 5 Spears but we have a strong military ! Conquest was relatively easy only quite slow due to limited movements of troops.
By 710 BC, Baekje are history.

I am going for Republic (in 32 turns and nearly at techs parity) while trying to pile cash for some upgrades (not so effective to try to manage two things at the same time …). I managed quite well the search path. I was the first at Literature in 975 BC and was able to gain techs parity at this time.

However, I missed all wonders and I am stuck with a Palace to be build instead of Great Lighthouse in Puhang.

War vs Gorguryeo (430 BC – 10 BC)
I will attempt for the Palace Jump with Wonsan being the FP. For this, I need to gain more territory so I will try to wipe out G… (they still do not have Iron connected). I want to jump my Palace to Kaesong (RCP 5). Before starting the War, I was decided to finish it by 10 BC, in order to jump to Middle Ages not too late. My army is 8 Swords, 5 Chariots, 2 Archers, 9 Warriors & 10 Spears (said to be strong).

I decided to attack with 7 swords, 1 Archers and 2 Spears directly towards the Capital. A second force will conquer towns on the Eastern Shore with the Chariots & Archer & Sword.
I revolt to Republic in the middle of the war (around 300 BC) and due to my small army I make slow progress.

I have a marauding galley that tries to discover more of my neighbors, only meeting the Barbarian Island to the West. Togukawa builds the Great Light-house (250 BC) and encounters me soon after (170 BC). I keep contact separated. I failed to Great lib to Han (110 BC) so I am left with a Palace pre-built . With Gorguryeo down to 2 towns. I make peace in 10 BC (as planned). I could have continued but it would have take too much more time and I was afraid of Han finally making contacts to Tokugawa. A list of deals ensure that gives me techs parity and I enter the middle ages…

Tokugawa settle on the smae island of Han but they did not meet until ... long-time. I am not sure why maybe because of the barbarians...
Here is a partial view of the minimap at 10BC while crusing in republic...

 

[Qitai]

Han is the chinese dynasty from 250BC to 200AD after the first civillian rebel, with Liu Bang, a commoner by birth, being the first emperor of Han. And If I remember correctly, Korean is made of three rival clans in the ancient times.

 

[lateralis]

Originally posted by dales
lateralis- Didn't Pink attack you for founding a city so close to them? My experience is that whenever there is overlap of the 9 tile central city radii, the AI will attack.

luckily, no. As I said, I'm trying to avoid war at all costs so I'm doing all sorts of things that my warmonger games usually don't. ex: giving in to every demand from an AI civ. One other thing I did early was sign ROP with braekje, while they were still at war with gorguryeo. I figured, even though I wasn't gonna be warring, judge not lest ye be judged . maybe they had a legitimate gripe? Maybe Gorguryeo had said something mean about Braekje's mother? So I let them through my territory to open a can of whoopass on our neighbor to the south. This, added to the crazy trading I was doing (braekje has been, and continues to be addicted to my wool) makes them hesitant to attack me even though my military is probably much smaller than theirs. I also signed ROP and traded with Han Dynasty a soon as I could hoping to foster a landmass that was very open and peaceful. So far it's working!

lateralis

 

[smackster]

Hopefully not too far off topic, but I think its important we all learn about the history. There will be a test in spoiler 2.

Baekje is the name of a nation which was one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea with Goguryeo and Shilla. In the ancient times, it was located in the west-south region of Korea and was destroyed by Shilla in 660 A.D.

Baekje was founded by King Onjo in B.C. 18 and was collapsed in A.D. 660 when King Uija was in the throne.

Goguryeo or Koguryo (1st century BC-668) was a kingdom in southern Manchuria and northern Korea. It is known as one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. It was named after Gaogouli, an ancient Chinese prefecture in Xuantu Commandry in modern Liaoning province.

According to Samguk Sagi, the legendary king Jumong founded the kingdom in 37 BC around what is now the border between China and North Korea. It gained power while China was fragmented. The maximum extension was reached during the reigns of King Gwanggaeto the Great and his son King Jangsu. It was overthrown by the alliance of the Chinese Tang Empire and Silla in 668.

Silla (sometimes spelled Shilla) is one of the three kingdoms of ancient Korea. In 668 the kingdom unified the three kindoms.

It is believed that Silla was founded by Hyokkose in 57 BC. It is known that by the 2nd century a distinct confederation was existing in the south east of Korea. King Naemul (356-402) established a heriditary monarchy. By annexing the eastern half of the Kaya state in the 6th century, Silla emerged as a fully grown kingdom.

King Chinhung (540-576) established a strong military force. In the 7th century Silla allied itself with the Chinese Tang dynasty. In 660 Silla subjugated the kingdom of Baekje, and in 668 Goguryeo in the north. After this Silla fought for almost a decade to expell the Chinese forces and established a unified kingdom in Korea

So its looks like we are Shilla in this game, and in my game at least I'm on track to repeat history.

Link to Korean History web site

Smackster

 

[PattonTwo]

Playing open game.

I moved to the coast to found my city.

My early exploration was north due to minimap, and a little eastward. Taejon was the first city I discovered.
Next I headed south after my first warrior exposed my entire west coast north of my capital. My 3rd warrior went east and then moved south.

The ONLY tech I discovered first in the game was writing. I was able to trade it to get caught up around 2000 bc.

Began my first war against pink in 430bc. Gained the Great Library in 350bc and give peace to gain time to recover from the war. I get their south western cities in the treaty.

250 bc I ask Baekje to get out of my land and they break our treaty and declare war. Drats. If I'd expected that to happen I would have been better prepared. I move a stack to their new capital Yosu on the east coast and try to get a defensive perimiter set up. We'll see how this goes.

I take Yosu. Trade a few units here and there. In 150 bc, having taken no more cities and not prepared to advance, I again negotiate peace, getting yet another city Chin-do, which was in the hills and would have been a tough battle.

I enter the Middle Ages in 110 bc with 12 cities, 10 bushi, 9 spearmen and 4 horsemen. No, not THOSE 4 horsemen.

Plans are to finish off pink civ, then move south and take out the olive green civ.

No one settled on the barb isle, and the few times they tried the barbs killed them immediately. I'm surprised the isle was settled in any game. This island takes up 20-30 seconds of every turn watching the units move back and forth. I can turn this off when I'm not at war. Perhaps if the island had been a little farther off, it would be better.

The best thing I did early on was push a settler far south to take the Iron source away. This would really come in handy later.
The worst thing I did (same as last gotm) was to be overconcerned about early barbarian activity. I built way too many warriors trying to protect every settler and every city early on until I realized there were zero barb camps around.
The best thing the AI did was build the Great Library in a pink city. I had zero chance IMHO to build this, and through just good luck I'll be able to take it by force.

Very few wars in my game that weren't started by me. I give in any time someone demands something.

 

[bluebox]

@ CdB:

"Tokugawa settle on the small island of Han but they did not meet until ... long-time. I am not sure why maybe because of the barbarians..."

uups! your picture of the tokugawa city on the volcano island is a spoiler for sure, isn't it?

just wait for cracker .... [punch]

No Transgression here, just a lucky quirk or the RNG part of the game. Any player could gain this same knowledge through semi-competent observation of the 1000 year pop ups. CDB also editted his minimap (with tiny help) to stay well within the expected limtis of the spoiler rules. I should not that some people are flirting with Sepuku by dancing around the Engineering/Monotheim/Feudal Warlords line in the sand. - cracker

 

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by smackster

<Korean history>

Thanks for the overview. It's nice to get a historical perspective into the game.

 

[CdB]

@bluebox
I know this is borderline but you can get the list of all opponent from the very start (by F10). It's just to show a strange behavior of the AI. They settled on the very same island and very close but did not meet for a long time. I was wondering if this happened to other games.

@cracker
thanks for the approval and again . what a great design. I think it is fun not to now the trait of the oppponent although they all look quite militaritisc.

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

Open Class 1.27f

I decided to settle on the spot, and set up an ideal 4-turn settler factory. This worked well, although the close proximity of our neighbors made me worry that I might get boxed in. These fears were crushed under the heel of the settler factory as I got 12 cities by the QSC cutoff. During my exploration, I encountered the Baekye in 3450, the Goguryeo in 2710, and the Han in 2710 as well.

My plan was to take out the Baekye and the Goguryeo, and then settle in and build to get to Fission. This plan has worked well so far, as I upgraded a large amount of warriors to Bushi and took first the Baekye, and then the Goguryeo. Out of these wars, I got three leaders. The first went towards an army, the second was used to rush the FP in the old Goguryeo capitol, and the third was saved up for a future wonder.

In the end, I exited the Ancient age in 300 AD a behind in tech, but with two cores ready to become a massive science machine.

 

[Naboo]

Originally posted by Tech Step
I don't know how you guys do it but I tried to set up the capital as a setytler factory and failed dismally.

By the end of the ancient era I was ahead on techs (due to Great Library) but I only had 4 cities.

I don't think I am going to win this one (How embarrising)

Tech, there are many examples of players winning diplomatically with 5-city-civilization (5cc) or even 1-city-civilization (Occ). I haven't tried those variations yet myself, but you might want to search out some of those examples if you feel it is too late for you to make significant gains militarily. Or, even if you just feel like playing an entirely peaceful game. This isn't necessarily a bad idea. You will likely see players who warmongered early in this game having some difficulties later on because of bad reputations. With 11 rivals, a clean reputation could be a VERY strong asset. I wish I had one

There are many paths to enlightenment.