*Spoiler4* Gotm21-Melee - End Game Submitted

Well, I polished off GOTM21 today and won via space race in 1918 or something. In GOTM20 I had the lowest score for a victory of any kind, and I suspect the same thing will happen to me again.

I've only been playing Civ III for about 4 months and there are A LOT of things I don't understand. But I did play Civ II for about 6 years, and I suspect that's why I am able to scratch out a victory.

Both games I have played too cautiously, but both games I was hindered early on by gaining a bad reputation. I have no clue how this happened, and it severely hindered my ability to trade for tech, thus leaving me struggling to keep up throughout most of the game.

In this case I did it multiple times, all unknowingly. Every time I tried to trade something using gpt I was told they were aware of how I treated some other civilization (as I said earlier, several different ones) and it was a no go. It is very frustrating. I am really missing something here.

Time to gour pour through the hints and strategies section to try to figure out why this is happening. I don't recall busting any deals!

Ghostwind
 
Well i re-checked my score on the calculator turns out its 0nly 3866:cry:This was the first game i've won on any level but chieftan it was also the fastest so i won't cry for to long
 
Originally posted by Ghostwind
Both games I have played too cautiously, but both games I was hindered early on by gaining a bad reputation. I have no clue how this happened, and it severely hindered my ability to trade for tech, thus leaving me struggling to keep up throughout most of the game.
The two I used to always get caught by are making peace while I was in an alliance (an alliance is a 20 turn deal), and starting war while in an enemies territory (counts as breaking a ROP). I managed to avoid these in this game, but did have problems with roads being broken by Barbs early on while I was trying to trade luxuries.

Originally posted by Ghostwind
Time to gour pour through the hints and strategies section to try to figure out why this is happening. I don't recall busting any deals!
Take a look at these two articles in the War Academy :

AI Attitude Exposed
The Road to Diplomatic Victory
 
PtW 1.21 Predator

Ancient Age
Middle Age
Industrious Age


After taking the much needed Rubber from Russia I made peace with Cathy and after taking a City from the Hettiti I made peace with them too; The smallness of my Empire led to 8 turn research instead of 4 turn and the AI were still trailing behind, locked in their usual Industrial-Area wars.
I reached he modern Age around 1350AD built the UN from Scratch and held the Vote in 1410AD with this Result:

RdW_GotM21_1410AD.jpg



If the Vote had been indecisive I would have tried to reach Space Ship Victory. I had already researched Computers and was working on SETI already. Additional I had 60 Tanks ready for Action to capture the Minoan Uranium and if needed Aluminum from whoever owns some;

Although a lot of AI-Wars were going on during the Game (including Dogpiles on Ottomans and Russia) only France got extinct. Rome was down to 2 small Cities during their early war with Atlanteans.

Anyway it was nice to see 16 Civs in action :)
And I like the additions the GotM crew has done to the Game :goodjob:


Rowain

RdW_GotM21_Rep1410AD.jpg
 
Originally posted by Rowain deWolf
RdW_GotM21_1410AD.jpg
I managed to speed my game up to take 45 Hours this month rather than 60 last month. I'm a bit jealous of your 16 Hours, 41 Minutes!
 
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1.21

Link to spoiler1
Link to spoiler2
Link to spoiler3

I spent the rest of my game, from 680AD, pursuing two goals at once: expansion and space.

On the expansion side I attacked one Civ after another until I was near the domination threshold. I used just Cavalry in all these wars, plowing through Riflemen, and in some later cases a few Infantry, with sheer superior numbers. Cavalry on their own have one great advantage - they can be used from a distance, causing less war weariness.

I'd previously taken over Germany, Minoans, Russia, and France. I hit Ottomans next, with some concerns since she had Sipahi. No problem, they were gone in 740AD. Next came Celts, gone in 800AD. I finally built a few boats, attacked Hittites, and reduced them to one remote city in 870. Next Egypt, gone in 910. I started for Babylon but Zululand attacked me at this point so I hit Zulu and Babylon at the same time, buying an alliance against Zulu from Carthage to reduce the pressure. Finished off Zulu in 1010, Babylon in 1040. And that was it on the expansion front.

The research side of the game was more complicated.

At the start of the Industrial Age I'd guessed that the AI's wouldn't be able to learn any further required techs. But after a while I decided to try it anyway. I was confident I could maintain four turn research for the rest of the game. The only way to improve my finish date would be to squeeze research out of a rival. I laid out the ambitious goal of getting two required IA techs out of them. Since they were still working on Nationalism (BTW, I don't think it makes a big difference if that's one's free tech or not - if it is, the AIs can work on other stuff, if it isn't they'll fixate on it first, losing one other tech they might have worked on), and I'd just learned Replaceable Parts, that determined my plan. I picked Spain, Zulu, Persia, Carthage, and Rome as potential helpers. I gave them luxuries and didn't take any more of their gold. I gave them Electricity so they'd start on Replaceable Parts if they finished Nationalism. I researched to Combustion and then gave my helpers Combustion and Replaceable Parts, hoping they'd go for Mass Production and Flight. I finished off the bottom techs with fingers crossed.

The plan partly worked - Spain learned Mass Production for me. So that was one useful tech gained. But that was it. I'd been watching AI research rates for some time. Spain was my best helper. None of the others had much chance of learning Flight before I had to do it myself.

So, time for a new plan. Could I get a Modern tech from the AIs? It would be hard to direct them there, with one exception - Computers. I hadn't used my Golden Age yet. If I didn't get Computers as my free tech, I could leave 24 turns for the AIs to learn it and use my Golden Age to maintain a four turn rate without labs. I decided to go for it. I timed ToE to complete when I learned Motorized Transportation, in 960AD. I took Flight as my first ToE tech, got Fisson as my new era tech, and took Ecology as my second ToE tech.

I swapped a prebuild to complete UN in 1010. Selected Spain and Persia to be my only remaining helpers (Rome and Babylon were too slow, Zulu had declared war on me.) I gave them the required techs and a few hundred gpt. MPP'd them both. Kept them fully stocked on luxuries and resources from that time onward.

First they learned Amphibious War and Sanitation. I chewed my nails. Finally, Spain learned Computers one turn before I'd have to start it myself, phew!

So that knocked another four turns off and I launched the spaceship in 1240AD.

Here's my world map at that date:

sirpleb21-4a.jpg


This sure was an interesting game! I did a lot of things which were unusual for me:
o Started out very slow, a long time till I began pumping settlers.
o Didn't use any boats until the Industrial Age.
o Skipped some wonders I usually treat as important, e.g. Smith's, to avoid an unwanted Golden Age. I even abandoned a number of unwanted wonders in captured cities.
o Delayed my Golden Age until Modern Times.
o Attacked Infantry with unsupported Cavalry.
o Had few leaders - I hung onto one for a long time to have flexibility in quick changes of plans. Never did use him :)
o Supported a couple of AIs with large gold donations.

I think I did it the hard way, that it was a mistake to defer my Golden Age. If I'd taken it very early, while in Despotism, I think I could have gained more turns than the four I got by using it in Modern Times, and with a lot less work. Initially I delayed it to get into Republic and to have two core areas which would benefit. And ever after that, I kept delaying it for a rainy day since I didn't need it yet.

I also have the feeling I might have squeezed one more IA tech out of the AIs if I'd focused on that all along and done it right.
 
SirPleb, I'm both shaken and stirred!

Launch at 1240? Just amazing!

I here declare the winner....erh, hmm, yes...we better wait for Moonsinger and Qitai and the ppl before that.

But now you made my pretty decent game look like junk.:lol:
 
Don't be so hard on yourself SirPleb. But I guess you got to be the player you are by being such a perfectionist.

An amazing win as ever. The best launch date posted so far in fact.

What was your score in the end, just out of interest?
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
On the expansion side I attacked one Civ after another until I was near the domination threshold. I used just Cavalry in all these wars, plowing through Riflemen, and in some later cases a few Infantry, with sheer superior numbers.
SirPleb, could you quantify "superior numbers"? Last month I had to attack the French Infantry with my Cavalry in non-superior numbers, relying heavily on Artillery to weaken them instead.

The disadvantage of this is that it takes quite a while to move Artillery into place and requires a lot of Artillery to weaken Infantry down, especially if the AI has railroads in place to quickly move new Infantry into place.

The advantage is (if you don't have Sun Tzu's) that you can produce lots of Artillery in all your cities that don't have barracks.
 
Originally posted by KELLO
(Addressing SirPleb) : What was your score in the end, just out of interest?
Any bets? I reckon between 8500 and 9000 Jason (that's quite a wide margin of 6200 to 8955 in game, so pretty certain!)
 
predator ptw

The modern age was quite boring.

I had more than enough beakers to maintain 4 turn ratio, so postponing the theory of evolution wonder was not necessary, heh.

Final launch date was 1250 AD. An incredible game this was for me!!

Sir Pleb's game is reaaallly great! :goodjob:

Fantastic idea to use the two best ai as "research institutes" with you financing them!!

And a great score too.
 
I am glad to see my gameplan followed Sir Plebs...so I know I am on the right track of having a high scoring game....of course...he did much better in his game..both getting more territory and having a faster launch date.

Sir Pleb, I'll definately be checking out your save game when it becomes available. I feared building too big an army in republic to keep conquesting...it seems my fears were unwarrented. I too would like to know how many units you were supporting. I also regret stopping for a solid 20 turns to wait for tanks now to take on riflemen. I should have just charged. Were the cavalry completely unassisted by the use of artillery/cannons? Even with tanks, I was taking some substantial losses...causing war weariness to take effect.
 
Well that was fun. I managed to take out all civs bar the persians, spanish, babs and atlanteans. I was steadliy chewing through the spanish and persians when I checked and found my culture was at 105k.I was in danger of winning by culture before my conquest was complete so I developed a fiendish plan to go for the green ambulance instead. I could launch but too common. So we go for a spectacular new green ambulance - the loss by diplo with only a handful of civs left.

I launch nukes everywhere and then call for a UN vote. Surprise I lost. Much more satisfying to lose when almost the entire surface is green ..... :P
 
Very impressive game, Sir Pleb!

Now I have been thinking about my mistakes. I think one significant one is the balance between unit and infrastructure building. How do you balance your building so that you have 4t research rate as well? Do you count your beakers and the needed ones so that you won't build/rush "unnecessary" banks at the time for example.
 
Originally posted by Dianthus

Any bets? I reckon between 8500 and 9000 Jason (that's quite a wide margin of 6200 to 8955 in game, so pretty certain!)

I believe Sir Plebs score will be above 9000 points. My bet would be 9350 Jason Points.

Ronald
 
Ronald and Dianthus,

I want to refocus us here just a tad to help us realize that discussions and posts thay focus too much on score alone tend to be big hairy turn-offs in the discussion process. If score fascimates you thne the key is to discuss it related to the key game play mechanics that you feel this particular game may demonstrate to make the score higher of lower than in other cases.

One thing we have done through feedback polling is to determine that at about 70% of the players say they do not like it when things get fixated on score alone. Score should be arelative measure of things that we think are important and we hope that the discussion will focus on these things and let the score fall out appropriately. Don't let this score chanting be your hare-hare mantra or claim to fame.
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
[B
So that knocked another four turns off and I launched the spaceship in 1240AD.
[/B]

Hi SirPleb,

you have been playing just one more almost perfect game. Congratulations! :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

Additional to the conquest / open / predator game there should be a SirPleb, DaveMcW, Qitai league ;) ;) . You guys are just playing a different game then the rest of us.

Ronald
 
Originally posted by cracker
Ronald and Dianthus,

I want to refocus us here just a tad to help us realize that discussions and posts thay focus too much on score alone tend to be big hairy turn-offs in the discussion process. If score fascimates you thne the key is to discuss it related to the key game play mechanics that you feel this particular game may demonstrate to make the score higher of lower than in other cases.

One thing we have done through feedback polling is to determine that at about 70% of the players say they do not like it when things get fixated on score alone. Score should be arelative measure of things that we think are important and we hope that the discussion will focus on these things and let the score fall out appropriately. Don't let this score chanting be your hare-hare mantra or claim to fame.

A large percentage of players just post their score in the thread where it is requried to have submitted the game before reading the thread. Some decide not to post it. I don't see any reasons why other players who have submitted their games should not be allowed to just speculate about the scores of players who don't submit their scores.

Ronald
 
Ronald,

That's not the issue. I am just asking you to follow the plan and talk about the conduct of the games instead of focusing on just the scores.

Do you understand the difference here and why I think it is important to take this different approach??
 
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