Sportsmanship

[warpus]

I'd say, even if you want to play a game that takes a while, don't play Catan. But I guess opinions will differ on that.

The problem is that there is usually at least one player who gets boxed in early and then has to keep playing the next two hours without being able to do anything meaningful. This tends to be quite frustrating and sometimes that frustration leads to unsportsmanlike conduct.

It's Catan, it's a game of chance. Even if you're "boxed in", you can win. Somebody who is going ot be unsportsmanlike because they're losing just shouldn't be playing in the first place. If Catan is not your game then that's fine, just don't play

A lot of it depends on the mood of the people playing. If everyone has plenty of time and is having fun, then trying to make it difficult is ok. But if half of the people are tired already, then I consider delaying the inevitable to be bad sportsmanship. People might know that it might take a while, but might not be prepared to how long it could take to finish the game. What looked like a 90 minute game can turn out to be 5 hours. In that case it is perfectly acceptable to either finish prematurely or walk away if you have somewhere else to be.

Sure, if these dynamics were agreed on before the game started, and everyone's on board, then that's fine. Or if nobody has really played Catan before and they didn't know what they were potentially walking into..

In the end it's up to the group to define what is sportsmanlike and what isn't. Every group is different - some groups take board games very seriously and follow all the rules to a t, while at the other extreme you might have a chill group of people who don't really care. If everyone's on the same page and there is agreement what actions should be taken when a game is dragging on too long, then following those steps can't IMO be unsportsmanlike. But if somebody just stands up and leaves, and there wasn't consensus on this all along, then I would call that unsportsmanlike.

What game of Catan takes 5 hours anyway? The longest I've ever played took.. 2 hours?

I agree that if somebody just doesn't want to trade, then this can cause a game to drag on and on and on.. I would call that unsportsmanlike! You can't be isolationist in the game, you gotta be reasonable

@warpus: The issue isn't that they didn't want to play a long game per se. It's that some of them had a long commute to get home and had to be at work very early the next morning. It wasn't the fun thing to do, but given that work is more important than Catan, it was the sensible thing to do

That's a badly organized board game night, then, if you're playing a game you have no time for.

This is how this sort of thing goes down whenever we play boardgames:

"We have an hour until we have to leave, what should we play?"
"Definitely not Catan, that can take longer"
"Okay, let's play this instead"

 

[BvBPL]

At this year’s Las Vegas Open semi-finals, Alex Fennell was recognized for his sportsmanship.
Fennel was playing against an opponent. The opponent took an ordinately long time to complete his actions. Fennell graciously waited during this time. There may have been some agreement between the two that they would overlook minor rule issues (reports vary on this).

When Fennell’s turn came around, he took an action that should only be taken at the end of a particular phase. His opponent said that since Fennell took that action that Fennell should not be permitted to take the other actions Fennell had planned. Fennell’s opponent declined to permit Fennell to withdraw his action.

Fennell, through his mistake and that his opponent did not permit Fennell to withdraw the error, lost the match right there, basically before it started. Fennell was cognizant that the match was being broadcast over the Twitch service and that many people were looking forward to seeing an exciting semi-final. In light of this, Fennell choose to play out the rest of the game, predictably losing to his opponent.

As it happens, Marc Merrill, who founded the studio that makes League of Legends, happened to be watching the game. Impressed by Fennell’s actions, Merrill was prepared to give $5,000 to Fennell in recognition of his conduct. Fennell declined to accept the money on his own behalf, and instead donated it to a children’s hospital. Fennell’s employer matched the contribution, as did the game’s maker.

 

[uppi]

It's Catan, it's a game of chance. Even if you're "boxed in", you can win. Somebody who is going ot be unsportsmanlike because they're losing just shouldn't be playing in the first place. If Catan is not your game then that's fine, just don't play

It starts out as a game of chance, but chance matters less, the longer the game drags on. If you're unlucky early on, you can end up in a situation, in which there is no legal field for you to expand to any more and there is nothing you can do about that. This can mean that there are not enough points for you to win, no matter what the dice say. And then there is the resource imbalance that can arise. If an opponent has every number you have and then some, how are you going to compete against that? Even if you get lucky and your numbers come up very often, the other is still going to get more resources than you.

Those are only the extreme cases, but more often that not, at least one player ends up in a place where a victory is theoretically possible, but only if some very specific rolls came up with a chance of less than a billion.

Sure, if these dynamics were agreed on before the game started, and everyone's on board, then that's fine. Or if nobody has really played Catan before and they didn't know what they were potentially walking into..

In the end it's up to the group to define what is sportsmanlike and what isn't. Every group is different - some groups take board games very seriously and follow all the rules to a t, while at the other extreme you might have a chill group of people who don't really care. If everyone's on the same page and there is agreement what actions should be taken when a game is dragging on too long, then following those steps can't IMO be unsportsmanlike. But if somebody just stands up and leaves, and there wasn't consensus on this all along, then I would call that unsportsmanlike.

Even if you have played a game before, there are situations in which game can take much longer than expected. Maybe one of the players is one of those who unsuccessfully try to negotiate a trade deal for half an hour. Suddenly standing up and leaving is not the best behavior, but if you announce that you have to leave in 15 minutes, everyone should respect that.

What game of Catan takes 5 hours anyway? The longest I've ever played took.. 2 hours?

I wasn't talking about Catan specifically. That was another game.

 

[warpus]

It starts out as a game of chance, but chance matters less, the longer the game drags on. If you're unlucky early on, you can end up in a situation, in which there is no legal field for you to expand to any more and there is nothing you can do about that. This can mean that there are not enough points for you to win, no matter what the dice say. And then there is the resource imbalance that can arise. If an opponent has every number you have and then some, how are you going to compete against that? Even if you get lucky and your numbers come up very often, the other is still going to get more resources than you.

Those are only the extreme cases, but more often that not, at least one player ends up in a place where a victory is theoretically possible, but only if some very specific rolls came up with a chance of less than a billion.

I mean, yeah, that's Catan. That's what the game is, when you agree to play a game, you know exactly what you are getting involved in, unless it's your first time playing.

If the group has a pre-determined protocol for dealing with games taking too long, then it's not unsportsmanlike at all to follow that protocol when that happens. But otherwise..

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I get the impression that hobbsyoyo's situation was not a normal run-of-the-mill thing, that this semi-pro player allowed his own ego to get the better of normal courtesy when told that some people had to leave soon because they had a long commute home and an early workday the next morning. To deliberately drag the game out at that point is just being selfish.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The game came to what could have been the final round. I was in the lead and needed one more turn to clench it. Bob was in last place (for once) by a wide margin. By this point everyone was complaining about how long the game had dragged on and had concluded that regardless of what happened, this was their last round.

At this point someone, most notably you, could have suggested that the game be conceded to you. If that suggestion is made and you really do have a prohibitive lead, then yes not going along with it is poor sportsmanship. If that suggestion wasn't made then every other player should be expected to make the best possible play for themselves.

 

[warpus]

I get the impression that hobbsyoyo's situation was not a normal run-of-the-mill thing, that this semi-pro player allowed his own ego to get the better of normal courtesy when told that some people had to leave soon because they had a long commute home and an early workday the next morning. To deliberately drag the game out at that point is just being selfish.

But if that was the case, why even schedule a game of Catan? They should have probably been playing something else, or at least agreed ahead of time how to finish the game early, if it's dragging on too long.

 

[BvBPL]

Wait, there are "semi-pro" Catan players?

 

[warpus]

Wouldn't it be boring to play Catan with somebody like that? Board games are a lot more fun if everyone's more or less equal in skill

 

[Valka D'Ur]

But if that was the case, why even schedule a game of Catan? They should have probably been playing something else, or at least agreed ahead of time how to finish the game early, if it's dragging on too long.

They had already been playing for 3 hours. Presumably they thought they would have time to finish it.

Not every gaming session can be micromanaged as you're suggesting.

Wait, there are "semi-pro" Catan players?

According to the OP.

 

[warpus]

They had already been playing for 3 hours. Presumably they thought they would have time to finish it.

Not every gaming session can be micromanaged as you're suggesting.

True.

It's Catan though, long games can happen, and do. Have a "plan B" in place in case a game is taking too long and make sure everybody is on the same page, so that people don't just quit a game because they have to go home, while others want to continue playing

It can be as easy as saying: "We'll play until somebody gets 10 points or we reach 2 hours of play, in which case a game of Twister will decide any ties"

 

[schlaufuchs]

Wouldn't it be boring to play Catan with somebody like that? Board games are a lot more fun if everyone's more or less equal in skill

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Prolonging a game out of ego when you know the others either don't have time, have lost interest, or are tired is definitely unsportsmanlike.

This is a fascinating stance to take. Per hobbsyoyo's description, the move was "perfectly logical". In other words, this was per the situation on the game board the best move the person could play. Now for some questions:

- While hobbsyoyo's position was strong, was a win guaranteed? Might someone else have won, depending on the actions of the players?
- It sounds like the person making the moves was in a king-maker scenario. Knowing this, could one not make a case that intentionally playing a less-logical move is game-throwing/favoring one player over others? If other people are still invested in the outcome, this comes across as worse sportsmanship than playing the game-defined logical move.
- If this is a friendly game/people don't care about the outcome, why does it matter if the game continues or is stopped before completion?
- Is it really fair to complain that someone isn't being sportsmanlike for playing a logical move, when people are leaving the game w/o completing it?

~~~

I'm reminded of a game of scrabble I played a long time ago with two other people. For a while we were each playing for ourselves, then one of them dropped out and decided to assist the other to come up with words. I fell behind by a lot, I think > 50 points. They wanted to watch a movie. I said "okay, we can call this a draw". They...refused! When I pointed out that the game isn't over, and if this isn't a big deal then a draw should be fine they both got annoyed...but kept playing. I got accused of having a big ego, but this rings pretty hollow when the people pointing the fingers want to quit early and can't accept a draw .

They called me childish, but I'd have agreed to a draw at any point. How am I the bad sport in this scenario? We start a game, they want to stop early, won't accept a draw, and actually get upset over this despite that it became pretty darned obvious that the game really wasn't over.

MAN did the mood in the room darken when I took the lead later. Maybe offering the draw a second time in this scenario was in bad taste, though at that point the looks I got for doing it were amazing .

 

[warpus]

I'm reminded of a game of scrabble I played a long time ago with two other people. For a while we were each playing for ourselves, then one of them dropped out and decided to assist the other to come up with words. I fell behind by a lot, I think > 50 points. They wanted to watch a movie. I said "okay, we can call this a draw". They...refused! When I pointed out that the game isn't over, and if this isn't a big deal then a draw should be fine they both got annoyed...but kept playing. I got accused of having a big ego, but this rings pretty hollow when the people pointing the fingers want to quit early and can't accept a draw .

Never agree to a game of Monopoly with these people. Tables will be flipped

 

[Gori the Grey]

Play in such a way that people will relish the prospect of playing with you again.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Never agree to a game of Monopoly with these people. Tables will be flipped

We've long since parted ways (this was like 15 years ago), but TBH if I agreed to play Monopoly in the first place for some reason I'd have likely just taken the "L" if that's what it took to stop. Even Risk is more interesting to me, that one game of Risk at my girlfriend's place in high school was great fun. It was a big come back, all because her brother didn't want her mom to win and made a deal with the devil...in that sense he succeeded. She didn't win.

 

[Hygro]

Share stories of good sportsmanship, bad sportsmanship or in-between edge cases. Discussion of any competitive activity is welcome including (but not limited to) sports, video games and board games.

Edge Case:
Settlers of Catan (Board Game)

After work a group of 5 of us got together. Several of us had some tasks to finish after the game so we all kind of wanted to finish it quickly. One gentleman, Bob, is semi-pro level and wins 75% of all the games played. He's very competitive, very good and over all a nice guy.

The game came to what could have been the final round. I was in the lead and needed one more turn to clench it. Bob was in last place (for once) by a wide margin. By this point everyone was complaining about how long the game had dragged on and had concluded that regardless of what happened, this was their last round.

It came to be Bob's turn on the last round and he decided to build three roads, which robbed me of the longest road +2 victory points and meant the game would continue. No one got mad, no fits were thrown. By all rights he should have played that move even though it didn't change his own ranking.

Half the group go up and left. No feelings were hurt but to me it was pretty selfish even if perfectly logical.

Am I wrong or just butthurt? Was his conduct sportsmanlike?

(I was one of the people that walked because they had more work to do _

What, who can't finish a settlers game? It wraps up hella quick.

The selfish moves were everyone complaining, and anyone whose turns were unduly long.

 

[metatron]

It came to be Bob's turn on the last round and he decided to build three roads, which robbed me of the longest road +2 victory points and meant the game would continue. [...] even though it didn't change his own ranking.

Well, he gained two points, didn't he?
Is that not the point?
So he's not supposed to gain points unless he can overtake the rank#4 player?
And in that case he's supposed to consider the time constraint and in essence throw the game to you?

Was his conduct sportsmanlike?

Yes.

He played correctly. And there was not enough time left for you to win.
That's not his fault. I am sure (if not the other three) at the very least Bob had regard for the job you had done.
Had he played purposefully unobtrusive, i would have seen that as a cheapening of your accomplishment.

Half the group go up and left. No feelings were hurt but to me it was pretty selfish even if perfectly logical.

The point of Catan is to satisfy the victory condition.
That's the win.
Whether you're ahead at xyz points is not the point.
The point is to be ahead at the victory condition.
If you're ahead earlier it signals to other people that maybe they should do something about you being ahead. Underselling your strength and somewhat sneaking up on them is part of the game. Kind of like Risk.

May i suggest: If you have a known time constraint, just lower the victory condition (i.e. play to a lower point total). Ending Catan on a timer - particularly one at least in part negotiated mid game - is obviously odd and will almost inevitable lead to dissatisfaction one way or another.
In this case yours.

 

[REDY]

I have a guy with who I play chess with, who finish game only when hes winning. Otherwise he says that he doesnt feel good or is tired, slowing down and then abandoning game. Hes much better chess player than me, but seriously his unsportmanship makes me unhappy, especcially when hes doing routine moves why I am trying to be creative while risking mistakes. I have satisfaction that we once met in the school tournament and therefore he was forced to admit defeat and I got 3rd

 

[hobbsyoyo]

At this point someone, most notably you, could have suggested that the game be conceded to you. If that suggestion is made and you really do have a prohibitive lead, then yes not going along with it is poor sportsmanship. If that suggestion wasn't made then every other player should be expected to make the best possible play for themselves.

Bob would never concede a game so that was out of the question.

But if that was the case, why even schedule a game of Catan? They should have probably been playing something else, or at least agreed ahead of time how to finish the game early, if it's dragging on too long.

Because we like to play and normally the games don't take 3 hours. We also didn't know that the new girl had a 1.5 hour commute until we were deep in the game and she mentioned it. In hindsight, those of us who had more work to do after the game probably shouldn't have played but it's our Wednesday ritual. We had to cancel several games in a row due to work schedule so when we thought we could get a game in we all jumped on the opportunity. Unfortunately it just went on and on.

Wait, there are "semi-pro" Catan players?

That was my own description. He's really, really good. Like I said, he wins about 75% of the games and we usually have 4 or 5 players, most of whom are actually pretty good in their own right.

Wouldn't it be boring to play Catan with somebody like that? Board games are a lot more fun if everyone's more or less equal in skill

No because none of us mind losing. It's still a fun game.

This is a fascinating stance to take. Per hobbsyoyo's description, the move was "perfectly logical". In other words, this was per the situation on the game board the best move the person could play. Now for some questions:

- While hobbsyoyo's position was strong, was a win guaranteed? Might someone else have won, depending on the actions of the players?
- It sounds like the person making the moves was in a king-maker scenario. Knowing this, could one not make a case that intentionally playing a less-logical move is game-throwing/favoring one player over others? If other people are still invested in the outcome, this comes across as worse sportsmanship than playing the game-defined logical move.
- If this is a friendly game/people don't care about the outcome, why does it matter if the game continues or is stopped before completion?
- Is it really fair to complain that someone isn't being sportsmanlike for playing a logical move, when people are leaving the game w/o completing it?

~~~

I'm reminded of a game of scrabble I played a long time ago with two other people. For a while we were each playing for ourselves, then one of them dropped out and decided to assist the other to come up with words. I fell behind by a lot, I think > 50 points. They wanted to watch a movie. I said "okay, we can call this a draw". They...refused! When I pointed out that the game isn't over, and if this isn't a big deal then a draw should be fine they both got annoyed...but kept playing. I got accused of having a big ego, but this rings pretty hollow when the people pointing the fingers want to quit early and can't accept a draw .

They called me childish, but I'd have agreed to a draw at any point. How am I the bad sport in this scenario? We start a game, they want to stop early, won't accept a draw, and actually get upset over this despite that it became pretty darned obvious that the game really wasn't over.

MAN did the mood in the room darken when I took the lead later. Maybe offering the draw a second time in this scenario was in bad taste, though at that point the looks I got for doing it were amazing .

1. Yes, absent Bob's move it was over as soon at it became my turn again. By this point everyone had shown their cards. We all thought the game was over and had been goofing around and joking about our hands. He got a lucky roll that gave him enough resources to build 3 roads.
2. He was pretty clear that he wasn't playing king maker, he just wanted to win himself which wasn't possible. (and he didn't win in the end)
3. It didn't. No one was butthurt, we just had to leave. Those that didn't have to leave kept playing. No one really cared, I just thought it was something interesting to talk about.
4. Mitigating circumstances. I even pointed out that it was a logical move he should have made in his own interest. I also pointed out it's an edge case. I just want to talk about it.


I feel your situation isn't actually comparable because people were ganging up on you.