Spoutnik says Bip-bip-bip [IMM fastest Space Colony]

That Fishing -> AH switch didn't work out too well. I almost feel responsible, sorry.
Straight to AH would have worked ok.
I'm surprised you went for The Wheel after AH. What is your intended tech path? Are you going for... Pottery? Surely, you don't plan one tech at a time...
You mentionned HBR... How do you intend to get there? Are you picking up wonders on the way?


So no Fishing. I'm shadowing at the pace of your play for now and we already have different tech paths :p Went for Fishing, AH, Sailing (in progress), intending Mysticism next.
Cyrus settled the same spot as yours.
Will settle 1SE of western pigs, a little later than yourself. Not sure about city 2's first build: maybe a settler since I'll have little use for worker turns.
Not sure how realistic it is to settle N-E of Cyrus' 2nd city. I didn't scout thouroughly the area. Doesn't seem great.

Few screenshots to T31:
Spoiler :
Spoiler :

Fishing done, scout survives.


Spoiler :

Growing on lakes; 13bpt.
Complete the mine or head to the cows now and improve them? Finishing the mine first loses 1F3H. We'll work it from next turn, though, and that will gain us 2H/turn so 8-10h. Mine first it is.


Spoiler :



Little more micro to get settler done at size 4. Maybe possible to get it slightly faster (while growing to size 4).
We're doing the settler at: 9 + (13*7) = 100 hammers
Max output is 14, however, and: 2 + (14*7) = 100 hammers. Two might be had with overflow whereas 9 could not (hence shaved turn). I didn't have the worker turns for that, though. Also, there is a cost in commerce.


Spoiler :

Desired city spot under the warrior.

 
The GLH is definitely a wonder to look at. Indeed, if I were Stalin, early MC would be truly attractive.

I like your idea of close helper cities. It's just sad stupid Cyrus decided to steal the only commerce city I had. :(

This start slightly encourages GLH indeed. Being commerce poor and spawning some seafoods. It's again said I'll have to build a lighthouse in the capital as my only gain is +2 :food: from lakes. That means,, ingnoring commerce, for the 60 :hammers: invested and 2/60 return, I need 30 turns of continuous lake working to get back my investment. Perhaps actually 20-25 thanks to desperate needed commerce.

I don't think your assessment of the lighthouse is accurate. It isn't fair to ignore commerce.
Cost is 60H, right.
Return is gains from the lakes minus gains from the tiles not worked (say a plains mine, best tile to compete at size 5).
3F2C/turn vs 4H can roughly be equalled to 3F vs 3H. F has higher value than H. If we round 3F = 5H, then working 1 lake returns 2H per turn on the cost of the lighthouse.
With 2 lakes worked, time line for the lighthouse paying for itself would be around 15 turns: pretty good! Max is 20 turns.

Also, 2 happy resources in sight makes the happy cap 7. Extra food from the lighthouse is very desirable to get there (and so is the Granary). That capital can't grow to 7 on its mines.

@helpers:
Probably a good idea. Will also reduce the need for border pops. Definitely valid with Pottery.
It may, however, increase the need for the very expensive Bronze Working, for whips (all-food cities). Getting BW, in addition to Pottery and AH, invalidates any wonder play, imo. It is, however, a standard route. Is standard good enough?
When to get the helpers is the question, I suppose. At the least, I don't think it's best to set the earlier cities as helpers asap. They may convert to that role later.

@GLH:
Looking at it isn't enough, that is researching The Wheel. Same for ToA: delaying Polytheism will lose it.
No islands were scouted. What about Demographics, did you check if there were many coastal starts?

@3rd city:
North-East is a fine spot but it might be best to keep settling the west, while Cyrus hasn't.
No food has been scouted to the south-west, yet.

@HBR vs Friendly Cyrus:
2 options that weight against each other. Friendly Cyrus enables trades until you discover Astronomy and reduces maintenance. Might be crucial and much better than a conquest. Killing Cyrus shortly before/after contact is made with other AIs might be best (means macemen if Astronomy is needed).
 
Hi Tachywaxon, what's going on? I'm surprised you didn't feed this thread. Do you intend to keep playing this map?
Did try to give some input last week but... a) it would help to know more about your plans for future development (what you think about is a good hint for us to know what you may be missing), b) lack of overall direction led me to write a very long post and, finally, c) I did hit Ctrl+W by mistake... Try it if you will; I didn't know that shortcut.


Anyways, here's the overall stuff I've been thinking about...

I – Prerequisites: Complete the exploration.
Most probably we are in semi-isolation with Cyrus but we need to make sure. 1 Sentry Chariot / early workboat is surely a good investment.

II – Assuming semi-iso: Pre-Liberalism tech targets.
a) Astronomy is the major target. Might help settling, warring and will surely help trading + researching. Our island doesn't seem to be extra-large and is very much brown: it would be delicate to set up a powerful cottage economy.
Astronomy bulb requires that we do not unlock Paper. Notably, it means we need Optics + Great Scientists before Civil Service.

b) Litterature + Marble will provide the scientists. In fact Marble gives us an incentive to lock the Aesthetics-Nationalism line for ourselves.

c) Along the above line is Philosophy. Philosophy competes with Astronomy for Scientist bulbs, so its value is debattable.
I believe Philosophy has positive value. It locks Nationalism and Liberalism, which is important on a Continents map.
Also, Philosophy unlocks Pacifism, which would fit a GP hungry early strategy. Getting Pacifism is finally a nice means to make up for the delay on Bureaucracy.

From the above, it is clear that researching Metal Casting, Machinery, Compass and Optics will be the most difficult part.

III – Valuable early wonders.
Apart from the Great Library, we have access to The Great Lighthouse, The Oracle and The Temple of Artemis.

ToA: beefs up our GPP but doesn't provide Scientist GPP. Least valuable wonder and first that should be skipped, if one should skip any.

Oracle: Oracle → Aesthetics sets us up for a very fast Great Library. So much that GPs won't be a limiting factor on our way to Astronomy: commerce will be.
GLH: increases our commerce.
For that matter, I think Oracle > GLH but, in fact, both are very desirable.

Merchant GPP are provided both by the GLH and the Temple of Artemis.
If we do not unlock Currency, or if we already have it, a Great Merchant will be able to bulb Metal Casting. That would be a great boost and is one of the reasons why ToA would be a good wonder to have.

IV – Diplo: value of peace vs war.
War unlocks:
- Capital moves to Persepolis
- National Wonders in Cyrus' territory
- Stone
Peace unlocks:
- Trades with Cyrus
- GPs born in Persia
- Religion founded

Stone is mostly important from Education and onwards (to Communism?), so the main value of war is to make some of Cyrus' awesome cities our cores.
Main value of peace comes from trades. Getting Alphabet, Monarchy and more would be painful in isolation but maybe extorting techs would be a valuable alternative.

By the time Astronomy is known, Cyrus loses all value. When to kill him is the more difficult question.
Chances are he'll get metal (also, Immortals do receive defensive bonuses), so I'm not sure HBR is the way to go. HBR is useless in the main tech plan and may delay you overall.
Early alternatives are hard to come by, however: no Civil Service means Macemen will be available rather late.
So our options are, ranked from earliest to latest;
- Horse Archer rush;
- Catapults war;
- Macemen war.
I'm not confident about the HA rush because I fear it will be the most costly plan. Also, warring this early, training nunits will compete with building wonders (although good whip management may offset that).

Then again, Persepolis is awesome and capturing it early would be very good. Just be careful to spare some trading opportunities, if you go the HA route.
Otherwise, I would think that a Catapults war can be timed nicely (after wonders, while teching up to Optics). War tactics will change the cost of war, so maybe it isn't necessary for you to wait that long.
The later warring occurs, the more important it is to block Cyrus properly.

V – Short term goals.
This is important too.
Western pigs are very nice to settle. With AH and only 1 valuable tile, city can start on a Worker/Settler straight off. However, the city needs culture and calls for Mysticism. Building the monument may prove difficult without slavery.

Sailing + Masonry will unlock the GLH (iirc, there were several coastal starts).
Mysticism + Poly will unlock The Oracle + Litterature (T7 Buddhism is 1 turn early).
If we assume that Oracle and GLH are equally good, then techs helping development should get the priority. That means researching Sailing before Priesthood. Priesthood last is the more risky way but it also gives us the opportunity to connect the marble (requires border pop + 12 worker turns: very expensive).
Note: Moscow can produce 15H/turn. Marble is far from necessary before Litterature.

From your position, having invested in The Wheel, I believe Pottery is a decent investment. You'll need to complete Fishing first, however (discount + lakes food/research).
The Wheel, Fishing, Pottery: that will take some time to research and may be too much of a delay towards the wonders. That varies with every game; only playing will tell.
Value of Pottery increases with a city by the non-irrigated corn: only spot that can be cottaged on our side of the island. So maybe that should be your 3rd or 4th settlement.

Maybe Pottery should be delayed a little. It would hasten Mysticism, notably, or maybe Sailing.
I'm not sure how realistic it is to go for a 2 wonders opening with Pottery. Getting The Wheel reduces the need for Sailing, so maybe you should just skip the GLH and go Wheel, Fishing, Pottery, Priesthood.
If you don't Oracle Aesthetics, then Code of Laws is probably your best bet: religion gains you happies and Caste System makes it very realistic to bulb Metal Casting. Finally, CoL guarantees control over the western pigs tile, if you set up your 2nd city to be the Confucean holy city: very nice.

Third city spot: needs exploration to determine. There's plenty of turns to decide.
Capital management: it would be somewhat of a waste to grow Moscow on mines: if Fishing isn't done early enough, you should consider going Settler → Worker at size 3. Between plains hills+ cows, you can get 2 bonus hammers from EXP trait, which makes up a little for the lost growth. Also Wheel/Pottery gives value to the extra worker.
EDIT: actually, settler x2 at size 3 might be better than settler -> worker if you aim for the Oracle and settle commerce specials with city 3. Won't really speed up towards Priesthood but I would think you'll get to Writing faster that way. If city2 starts on a settler, then, of course, the capital has little to no incentive in going 2x settler.

Greetings. Just food for thought.
 
@BIC

I always enjoy reading your posts. :)

Since Tachy seems busy right now, I'll add my 2¢, expanding or questioning your points:

I – Prerequisites: Complete the exploration.

The southern Silver especially. If it has a food source of it's own, I might even be inclined to settle there first.

II - Pre-Lib tech targets

c) Bulbing Philosophy is only worth it, IMO, if Tachy wants a religion for his/her continent or to win Lib. There is something to be said for Libing Astronomy, since I assume Tachy will want Communism eventually. So the bulb might be worth it.

III - Early Wonders

BIC, did you rule out the Parthenon, or simply ignore it due to the reduced impact for a Philosophical leader?

Oracling Aesthetics sounds intriguing. It is a big ask though, and risky if beelined. I would head to Fishing, Sailing, and Masonry for the GLH, and play it safe. Mysticism can then be teched for Monuments; Writing for Libraries; Polytheism for eventual access to Literature. If the Oracle is still available in 1900 BC, it is definitely worth putting a plan in motion to settle near the Marble, quarry it, and chop out the wonder elsewhere (a large number of Workers are needed though, esp. since the Marble is in the Tundra and settling on top will lose 2 GLH trade routes...).

The Oracle's value is vastly weakened without the GLH. The GLH gives massed trade routes which are wasted in semi-isolation. The Oracle gives early access to TGL and NE. TGL/NE will lead to an early Astronomy. The sooner Astronomy is in, the sooner the GLH gets super-charged.

Early Aesthetics also means an early Music for a free Great Artist and much more Sistine/Marble fail gold.

IV - Diplo

I agree regarding HBR. It is expensive and unnecessary if you have access to metal (a big if).

Extorting techs will probably make the best use of Darius. I am sure that he will give up Alphabet + CoL/Monarchy/Currency, if hit hard enough. It would be nice to have access to the Stone when Philosophy comes in (building several Angkor Wats > building Wealth).

If Darius builds the Mids, then capturing them should become your number 1 priority.

V – Short term goals.

Just to add, Pottery also adds a huge amount of production once Granaries are built. But it is probably unrealistic to expect to tech AH, BW, Pottery, Fishing/Sailing/Masonry, Writing, Mysticism/Polytheism/Priesthood, and build two wonders with a non-Industrious leader... I would personally beeline the GLH and hope to luck into the Oracle. I'm not sure whether this would be the most efficient strategy though.
 
Hi Doshin, those are interesting points you make :)


City 2: contesting the Western pigs or settling commerce tiles:
Pigs city has 0 hammers in the first ring and needs culture to protect its food. So, depending on the tech path, it may be a risky choice. Losing the pigs tile would be bad... Haha! It might even be a good idea to hire non-specialist citizens to hasten the monument.
It is, however, a convenient location for both trade network (instant connection) and to support expansion (7H/turn at size 1 into settler/worker ~~ 11-12 turns settler).

Settling a commerce site first would load Moscow with the whole burden of expansion. That would seriously delay cities 3-4. Also, without Sailing, it means Tachywaxon will have to spend more time roading (not ultrabad but a penalty this early).
Depends on the food source & the need for culture, I suppose.


Parthenon.
No, I wouldn't rule it out. Parthenon is a nice bonus but it doesn't do anything special. I don't think the tech path should be affected by that wonder. Also, I don't consider it an “early” wonder. In my mind, “early” stops in the Ancient Era.
Parthenon shines for culture wars in border cities, or at least that's what I like to do with its 10 culture/t.


Oracle vs GLH.
I don't favour the Oracle very heavily, here. See me contradicting myself:
“For that matter, I think Oracle > GLH but, in fact, both are very desirable.
[...]
If we assume that Oracle and GLH are equally good”

I did mention that Metal Casting Machinery Compass & Optics would be the main obstacles on the way to Astronomy. Extra commerce from the GLH would help the most for that matter.
GLH also is a more secure target than the Oracle. Its merchant GPP are finally more useful than the prophet points from the Oracle.
Maybe it's plain wrong to favour the Oracle, here. My main issue with the GLH is a little childish: I find it redundant to have researched both The Wheel and Sailing that early.

So, pros: - better research on those expensive techs that can't be bulbed.
- Merchant GPP >> Prophet GPP. Best case scenario: the first GP is a merchant that bulbs Metal Casting.
Against GLH: -No islands spotted, yet. Trade routes from Cyrus will be limited.
- It can be captured later on (but would obsolete soon after).


Oracle Aesthetics:
The big question, here, is: how many turns earlier can you build the Great Library if you do Oracle Aesthetics? Maybe it is more, maybe it is less: I'd say around 20 turns... it is a lot.
Especially when early wonders accumulate GPP and the leader is Philosophical: 20 turns after the first wonder is built, it has already produced 80 GPP.
So... early wonder = 1st GP won't be a scientist. Great Library really needs to be built fast if the scientists aren't to cost 400+ GPP.
Also in favour of Oracle Aesthetics: Code of Laws is useless as a prerequisite to Civil Service if we want to bulb Astronomy. And Metal Casting... Metal Casting is best bulbed. Oracle MC would offer very little economic benefits. Colossus is nice but we aren't FIN to fully take advantage of it.


Value of Philosophy.
It wouldn't surprise me if I overrated it and I didn't mean to imply bulbing Philo would result in a faster Astro.
My line of thought, here, is more that PHI leader + wonder spam may result in a GP overload. In which case, bulbing Philosophy is fine, better than saving the GP for later.
You did mention Music and I think it plays in the same league as Philosophy. However, it is a lesser player :p The Great Artist is good but Nationalism/Liberalism provide much better bonuses.


Astronomy from Liberalism?
Definitely a possibility but a) it isn't the cheaper option and b) I think that approach would benefit from a stronger commerce capital: picking Astronomy from Liberalism means you get early Civil Service/Education. It would make sense if Cyrus is invaded early and Persepolis has grown into a fine Russian capital...
As it is, I haven't given much thought to Liberalism targets. I think Communism and Biology are contenders. A military tech is also a nice option.
Getting Astro via bulbs saves Lib for the juicer target & lets us explore the map some more to assess the better target.


Production from Granaries. Moscow can easily grow to 5 without a granary. Extra production mostly comes from Slavery and... seeing how expensive BW is... eek!

Mysticism after Masonry? Maybe... This isn't the kind of thing I do... Just like Fishing after Pottery... If there's no need for monuments and Tachywaxon forgets about the Oracle... maybe. Mysticism will be backfilled not long after, though. Still sounds like a waste to me.


@ All those wonders:
1 city won't host them all. Need more (productive) spots!
In Moscow, size 5+ : GLH is 14 turns; ToA is 12 (marble); Oracle is 10 (no marble), Great Library is 12. For popping the right GPs, building the GLH first is best.
 
@Tachy, BIC and Doshin, are you still playing this game? I find the analysis very detailed and, from looking at the start, I would have given up early, on the first glance the land looks terrible, so I am curious to see how this can be turned into a space race....

Regarding commerce: to research GLH/oracle techs, won't the beaker rate drop too much if we dont have an extra source of commerce, like cottages? I dont think the silver alone will feed the expansion until GLH is in. On the other hand, only none riverside cottages seem like a waste.
 
I played way ahead of Tachywaxon in the Arabia thread and felt I had a little too much foreknowledge when participating. So unless I snap (snap!), this time I'll play at the same pace, roughly. So I didn't play past T31, which suits me since it let me lay out a plan.
Tachywaxon ain't forced to follow the advices in my posts, those describe best what I intend to (try to) do. I'm sure there are very valid alternatives. Civil Service+Persepolis option stands out, I think.


Expansion won't stiffle the economy until at least the 4th city is settled. 5th city requires a decent Empire setup before being settled (having all the prereqs for early wonders is a good idea). 2nd city is a pure gain in commerce, food and production.
Cottages aren't ultra appealing, here, the spots are just lacking. Fortunately we're PHI to make up for it. Still, some cottages will be helpful.
 
So unless I snap (snap!), this time I'll play at the same pace, roughly.

Don't snap. :)
I just returned where I left in a timid way with Gkey's game and some bad played WOTM I had to finish with Genghis (terrible culture 1690 AD with the capital 100,000, doubled the necessary 50,000 :culture: :crazyeye:) because the deadline was yesterday. Sometime, I wonder if I should start a thread on culture games as it is an orphan game victory whose optimization is hard to define. Jesusin is still learning despite being the guru... Now I can see this thread today later or tomorrow. But it is hard on a laptop. Not only I'm not used to write on a english keyboard, but internet is slower and the game too...a tad not to much (still better than Cseanny's computer :lol:).
 
It'd be interesting to try optimization of a culture game. Balancing research vs. culture slider, cottages and warring. Far from an expert on the subject but I'd tag along for the ride.
 
+1 for the culture game. I'm sure we could get the "guru" to play along too...

But before we move on to that, I'd like to see how this game plays out. Space in semi-isolation has challenges of its own.
 
Ok, I decided I'll retry this game since T0. :)

Spoiler :
joke


Ok, it is getting late. So I haven't been able to do much testing, but this map is terrible. Oh yeah, as BIC said, you need so many techs...a bite in everything.

I was thinking Wheel for Pottery, but given the cost of BW...and if I do a super fast expansion, I kill my economy. I'll have to grok about it tomorrow. Wheel may be a mistake.

Also, a small assumption about CS faster than Astro path for early boosted trade routes.
Here a screenshots in favor of bureaucracy fast to make pig-corn+couple of grass farms a nice GP center with marbled NE.

Spoiler :


Also, I release a test games (indeed, I don't want to test in the real game lest to know what will happen in term of wonders).
Also a unfinished test game with few value...
 

Attachments

Are you sure you can irrigate through a desert when you put a city there? My understanding was that cities only spread irrigation if they are on irrigable terrain, i.e. not a hill, desert, tundra or ice.
 
@ Thrar, yes it works. When you settle a desert tile it becomes... Well no longer a desert tile :)
 
The more I look at it, the more I see the tech path should be:

Agricuture ==> AH ==> Fishing ==> BW ==> Sailing ==> Masonry ==> Wheel ==> ???

The GLH is definitely the lifesaver once gotten. The economy bumps to at least 50 bpt by 1000 BC.

Here are two scenarios with different micro. The second looks really weaker by delaying third and fourth cities just for two earlier turns on GLH.

Spoiler :




 
First scenario is immensely better than the second, I agree.

The only reason to rush GLH is if you risk losing it which isn't the case here.
 
Size 3 Moscow... Didn't you ever grow it or did you whip the GLH?
1000 BC is an ok date, I suppose. A little bit on the slow side to be extra safe but not all starts allow 1600BC GLH.

@Techpath:
What do you intend to do about it? Reload a few turns?
The Wheel & Fishing took you away from the path you outline. I think I'd stick to Fishing before AH. What's wrong with it?
Bronze is very expensive but you are right it is crucial to get Monuments & Workboats done.
 
I put this on the pause button for the moment being. Sadly, RL had taken me down. I resigned to greater forces. *insert a GG imagery while losing*

Will definitely reenact following of where I stopped once I get a peaceful moment. Along the bots or not. :3

EDIT:

Spoiler :
I admit this message was greatly targeted to BIC. Sorry to have disappointed you.
 
Ohrf! Don't worry about that, don't worry about me...
RL had its ways? Fine...
Besides, look at the bright side: now I can play at my leisure!
Don't feel hard-pressed to complete this map either: it was a random, there are plenty of those...
 
Bip-bip says Spoutnik... I've played a dozen of turns and reached a point at which I wouldn't mind a few comments...
Otherwise, well, this post will enlighten my future choices.

T49.

Spoiler :
St Petersburg is training a settler and the location noted below flashed me:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0034_zps461e83b3.jpg


So the city has a great spice tile to work with, is inland and requires The Wheel to be researched rather than Masonry. Rather lame.
However... It has great blocking value for southern and south-eastern sites.
It will alleviate cultural pressure on St Petersburg.
It will unlock a 2H tile to complete the Monument in St Petersbourg (saves 20+ turns without Bronze Working).
It will allow to pressure Pasargadae with our culture... inducing a slight war risk.
It will meddle with Cyrus' attempts to work the wheat tile.

The Great Wall and Stonehenge have been built already (respectively in 2680 BC and 2160 BC) so building the Oracle seems unlikely at best. Judaism hasn't been founded, yet.

Any thoughts? Did I forget any important info to assess the situation?
Is it worth it to postpone Masonry only to connect that city? Maybe not. EDIT: just asking that question, I can tell: probably not is more accurate than maybe not.
Settler from Moscow would be sent East, probably towards the Clams/Fish site: it can work a mine straight off to build a workboat and it can easily be connected to trade network via coastal trade routes.

The Marble site is a little too far to be connected that easily, since I didn't uncover the whole coastline (and now it's getting dangerous).
If the city in the screenshot isn't settled, then the Marble site would be the 4th city. That would allow better development (except for the hill(s) that St Petersburg wouldn't access) but the strategic positioning wouldn't be as good.
 
^Alright, so that's done. Had to hit reload a few times, if only to convince myself I'd play it that way, but it's done anyway :)

Overview at T57:

Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0038_zps1dfc03c3.jpg


1 worker. Will need another one & a settler to set up the quarry. Didn't get Polytheism, yet.
Great Merchants bulb Metal Casting with Pottery/BW and Code of Laws with Priesthood/Writing. Maybe we'll have to make use for 2 merchants.

Judaism is founded, Oracle has been built. Cyrus has plenty of units but no metal, yet.
Pasargadae still doesn't produce any culture.

Interestingly, Rostov is connected to the trade network. I didn't think it would be. Not sure why that is. It's connected to Cyrus and Cyrus is connected to us, maybe that's the reason. Strange, since we don't have Open Borders.
Rostov's tile isn't assigned, yet. May be the hill and then the spices when St Pet reaches size 2, so the monument will be done asap. I'm a little anxious about Pasargadae getting culture before I do.

+5gpt at 100% gold, now we're not working the lakes anymore.


EDIT:
Aaaah! It took only 3 turns... that barb archer.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0040_zps1b965f72.jpg

I blame Cyrus for not cooperating :p
 
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